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Sineadw
Member Username: Sineadw
Post Number: 5 Registered: 06-2009
| Posted on Saturday, September 12, 2009 - 01:04 pm: |
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Sorry- this is last in my list of unresolved for today!! 'Chuaigh' is the caighdeán for 'went', past tense to go. In Conamara they seem to pronounce that as 'chu' (silent h) or 'chu-i'. Now the old texts seem to spell this 'chuaidh' and I have noticed the Scots Gaelic 'chaidh' (pronounced 'Ki', as in ryhming with 'Hi'). So... I'm wondering what are the ways 'chuaidh' was pronounced in the different dialects? as in before the horrible caighdeán set in? And also why did it enter the caighdeán as 'chuaigh'?? Sinéad |
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Breandán
Member Username: Breandán
Post Number: 310 Registered: 12-2008
| Posted on Saturday, September 12, 2009 - 01:44 pm: |
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Now, now, a Shinéad, you will get yourself jumped on by the caighdeáners using adjectives like "horrible" next to "caighdeán". The change in the ending from "-idh" to "-igh" was probably just to bring the ending into line with the regular verbs. The series An Teanga Bheo gives the following dialect pronunciation variations (transcripts are mine and open for correction): Corca Dhuibhne "chuaig" /xu:ig'/ (?) Gaeilge Chonamara "chua" /xu:ə/ Gaeilge Uladh "chuay" /xu:əj/ where /j/ is like a strong "y" sound (French "ll") (?) Unfortunately, my editions don't give any phonetic transcripts for these so I have taken the Conamara pronunciation from Learning Irish and extrapolated the others. Hopefully, if they are incorrect someone will amend them for us. (Message edited by breandán on September 12, 2009) |
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James_murphy
Member Username: James_murphy
Post Number: 341 Registered: 11-2005
| Posted on Saturday, September 12, 2009 - 04:24 pm: |
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quote:The change in the ending from "-idh" to "-igh" was probably just to bring the ending into line with the regular verbs. Always seemed like a bit of pointless tinkering to me. The idea that the caighdeánisers were concerned with making the written language more regular is a joke :) (Message edited by James_Murphy on September 12, 2009) Séamus Ó Murċaḋa Inis fá réim i gcéin san Iarṫar tá Dá ngoirid luċt léiġinn Tír Éireann fialṁar cáil
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Ormondo
Member Username: Ormondo
Post Number: 504 Registered: 04-2008
| Posted on Saturday, September 12, 2009 - 08:08 pm: |
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Scríobh McWhorter sa leabhar dá chuid "The Power of Babel" go mumaítear teanga nuair a chaighdeánaítear í d'ainneoin go bhfuil sé riachtanach, agus mar sin dosheachanta, le comhthuiscint leathan a chruthú. An bhfuil, dar libh, na teangacha seanchaighdeánaithe traochta agus caite de bharr sin? Táim ag tagairt do theangacha i gcoitinne agus níl an Ghaeilge i gceist agam go speisialta mar ní teanga sheanchaighdeánaithe í an Ghaeilge. (McWhorter wrote in his book "The Power of Babel" that to standardize a language is to mummify it although this is necessary to create a wide common comprehension. Do you consider that the long-established standardized languages are jaded and exhausted because of this?) Is geal leis an bhfiach dubh a ghearrcach féin.
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James_murphy
Member Username: James_murphy
Post Number: 343 Registered: 11-2005
| Posted on Saturday, September 12, 2009 - 09:02 pm: |
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Níl locht agam ar chaighdeánughadh ach ar an gcaoi a d'athruigheadh litriughadh na Gaedhilge i gcomhair an C.O. Bhí simpliughadh de dhíth, gan amhras, ach chuadar i bhfad thar fóir. (I have no problem with standardisation but with the way Irish spelling was altered for the C.O. Simplification was needed, without a doubt, but they went way too far.) Séamus Ó Murċaḋa Inis fá réim i gcéin san Iarṫar tá Dá ngoirid luċt léiġinn Tír Éireann fialṁar cáil
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Linda_kathleen
Member Username: Linda_kathleen
Post Number: 90 Registered: 06-2009
| Posted on Sunday, September 13, 2009 - 11:21 am: |
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Out of curiosity, how would you classify this particular spelling alteration ('chuaidh' to 'chuaigh')? Needed simplification, or pointless tinkering? I am a rank beginner. And I mean the rankest of the rank. Please be kind.
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James_murphy
Member Username: James_murphy
Post Number: 344 Registered: 11-2005
| Posted on Sunday, September 13, 2009 - 03:09 pm: |
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Is this addressed to me? If so - pointless tinkering, as I wrote above. If the fact that lenited "gh" and "dh" are pronounced identically was causing undue mental torment and confusion to unfortunates trying to tackle the awful complexities of Irish orthography why didn't the sages behind the "new" spelling go the whole hog and change "aghaidh" to "adhaidh" or "bailigh" to "bailidh" etc. ? :) Séamus Ó Murċaḋa Inis fá réim i gcéin san Iarṫar tá Dá ngoirid luċt léiġinn Tír Éireann fialṁar cáil
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Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 3179 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Sunday, September 13, 2009 - 07:19 pm: |
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Chuaigh is pronounced : /xuəg'/ in Munster before a subject other than a personal pronoun (sé, sí...) /xuəj/ in Ulster before a subject other than a personal pronoun (sé, sí...) /xuə/ in other cases & in Connemara Some people say "fuaigh" (if i remember well, in parts of Mayo, in parts of Ulster and maybe in Clare...?) The ch- may sound as an h in north Donegal. So: chuaig a' fear (M) chuay a' fear (U) chua'n fear (C) chua sé... (CMU) Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/
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Breandán
Member Username: Breandán
Post Number: 317 Registered: 12-2008
| Posted on Sunday, September 13, 2009 - 08:50 pm: |
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Hi, Lughaidh. Thanks for the clarification. I read about the "chua sé" in all dialects after I had posted, but neglected to go back and add it in. Just a quick question: Ó Siadhail has /xu:ə/ with a long /u:/ in Learning Irish, yet you have used a short /u/ as in /xuə/. Did you have any particular source? or was it just your own sense of how it is pronounced? |
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Ggn
Member Username: Ggn
Post Number: 126 Registered: 08-2008
| Posted on Monday, September 14, 2009 - 06:34 am: |
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Normally the idh / - igh is only pronounced in Ulster in stress or in answer to a question. i.e. chua sé amach, an dteachaidh? chuaigh. |
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Macfheargail
Member Username: Macfheargail
Post Number: 1 Registered: 09-2009
| Posted on Monday, September 14, 2009 - 07:10 am: |
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A Sinéad. Its probably been answered, but i pronounce it "who-y" (Gaeilge Uladh) |
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Macfheargail
Member Username: Macfheargail
Post Number: 2 Registered: 09-2009
| Posted on Monday, September 14, 2009 - 07:12 am: |
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"Normally the idh / - igh is only pronounced in Ulster in stress or in answer to a question. i.e. chua sé amach, an dteachaidh? chuaigh." Interesting, I didnt know that. |
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Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 3181 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Monday, September 14, 2009 - 07:36 am: |
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Normally the idh/igh is only pronounced in Ulster when the following subject is not mé, tú, sé, sí, muid/sinn, sibh, siad... Racha mé Rachaí Seán... You pronounce it in an answer too, of course, since there's no "mé, tú, etc" after it. quote:Ó Siadhail has /xu:ə/ with a long /u:/ in Learning Irish, yet you have used a short /u/ as in /xuə/. Did you have any particular source? or was it just your own sense of how it is pronounced? It's phonology and in phonology, some keep the length symbol in writing the diphthongs /i:@/, /u:@/, others don't, but it's just the same. As we know the first vowel of theses diphthongs is always long, we may choose not to write it, you see, since people know it's always long. O Siadhail himself doesn't use the length symbol in his phonological transcriptions in his book Modern Irish, if I remember well. Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/
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Sineadw
Member Username: Sineadw
Post Number: 12 Registered: 06-2009
| Posted on Monday, September 14, 2009 - 12:02 pm: |
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Wow, It's unbelievable the knowledge ye have. Thanks for sharing, I really really appreciate it. |
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Breandán
Member Username: Breandán
Post Number: 318 Registered: 12-2008
| Posted on Monday, September 14, 2009 - 03:09 pm: |
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quote:It's phonology and in phonology, some keep the length symbol in writing the diphthongs /i:@/, /u:@/, others don't, but it's just the same. As we know the first vowel of theses diphthongs is always long, we may choose not to write it, you see, since people know it's always long. O Siadhail himself doesn't use the length symbol in his phonological transcriptions in his book Modern Irish, if I remember well. Thanks again for the clarification, Lughaidh. Modern Irish was the first place I looked but I couldn't find it. It may well be in there but it isn't indexed. :-( In the end, I just used what I found in Learning Irish. I understand that it might not be necessary for _you_ or _I_ to write it as we know it is always long, but I am not so sure the beginners and learners all know that. Like my two-year-old daughter, they lap up every detail of what we say and they tend to take us very, very literally... (^^;;) Anyway, now they _do_ know. ;-) |
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