Right so another dialect and caighdeán thing!

So as far as I know, 'dúirt' is in the caighdeán and replaced 'dubhairt', but I'm starting to think that maybe 'dúirt' was always around, perhaps in Munster Irish? Or why would they need to turn it into 'dúirt' in the caighdeán if there had been only one version in the first place...

Hope that makes sense.

I think the medial broad "bh" is /u/ and therefore absorbed into the actual "u", even in Munster. Dillon/Ó Cróinín (old Munster-based TYI Irish) has duart for "I said".

Hence also tabhairt = /tu:rt'/ in Munster (according to Dillon/Ó Cróinín); /to:r't'/ in Ulster; /to:r't'/ or /t'u:r't'/ in Conamara.

quote:

/to:r't'/ in Ulster; /to:r't'/ or /t'u:r't'/ in Conamara.

/rt'/ is one of those clusters with a vibrant first in which the vibrant is always broad. Hence (CF): sop /sop/ - soip /sep'/, but port /port/ - poirt /port'/.

Thanks, Peter. I think I have always intrinsically understood this and I pronounce it that way but hadn't noticed it transcribed till now. Makes perfect sense.

So:

/to:rt'/ in Ulster; /to:rt'/ or /t'u:rt'/ in Conamara.


(Message edited by breandán on September 12, 2009)

Sineadw > what I'd like to know, is why they've put "dúirt" in the caighdeán while most people, ie. Connachta and Ulster use "d'úirt", which becomes "úirt" after particles (gur úirt, ar úirt, níor úirt...).

Cool thanks for the explanations.

but after particles go, an, ní and nach it is:

go ndúirt, an ndúirt, ní dhúirt, nach ndúirt

Is that correct?

surely it have been 800 years or so since anyone actually said 'dubhairt?'

quote:

Cool thanks for the explanations.

but after particles go, an, ní and nach it is:

go ndúirt, an ndúirt, ní dhúirt, nach ndúirt

Is that correct?

In Standard Irish it is : go ndúirt, an ndúirt, ní dúirt, nach ndúirt.

In Ulster (and Connemara if I remember well) : gur úirt, ar úirt, níor úirt, nár úirt

quote:

surely it have been 800 years or so since anyone actually said 'dubhairt?'

What would be the difference, to you, between dubhairt and dúirt in pronunciation?

- duvairt
- dúirt

I guess everybody in Ireland would pronounce dubhairt and dúirt the same way, ie. /du:rt'/... they are just the same word, but dubhairt is the pre-CO spelling. Writing -ubha- instead of -ú- doesn't mean you pronounce it in a different way...

Here you can download "Gramadach na Gaeilge agus Litriú na Gaeilge: An Caighdeán Oifigiúil". Yes, the dreaded document. Whatever you think about the changes, they're laid out pretty nicely in here if you want to go one way or the other to figure a word out. Ideally the spelling changes would not have affected pronunciation, but be prompted by pronunciation, but that is a whole 'nother thread ...

http://ec.europa.eu/translation/language_aids/freelance/documents/irish/an_caigh dean_2001_ga.pdf

Thankies for the link sinéadw, i mean seánw! haha.

Conas a fhuaimníonn sibh dubha? An fuaimniú atá agamsa ná "dú".

dú nó dúa?

An bhfuil dubha aidiacht iolra?

Sea, is foirm iolra den aidiacht atá i gceist. Agus focal eile ar fad is ea dua.

/du:wə/ in Ulster, as far as I know.

quote:

Ideally the spelling changes would not have affected pronunciation, but be prompted by pronunciation, but that is a whole 'nother thread ...

The spelling changes have been decided from the Connemara pronunciation mostly : the more conservative Munster and Ulster have not been consulted. Think of -aidh/-aigh > CO -a in some words... when people say -aig in Munster and -aí in Ulster. If -aidh/-aigh had been kept, everybody would have been happy. Anyway Connemara people pronounce all unstressed -aigh and -aidh as -a.

For instance, leabaidh, cruaidh... (ruadh becomes ruaidh in the gm in Ulster and Munster... the dh should have been kept too)...