Something that is bugging me is the use of the article 'an' instead of the possessive 'a' - I see this more so in the older texts and when listening to native speakers.. so I'm thinking it's down to the influence of English that we say 'a' (possessive pronoun) when in fact 'an' (the) is more natural.

Here is an example to show you what I mean:

'Cailleadh an mháthair nuair a rugadh Sail'

(Sorry that I don't have more examples right now)

Now I know that here the mother is in context of the family, and isn't just 'her' mother as Sail has siblings- perhaps this is the reason for the above sentence?

But in general, is there something I can go on to know when to use the article instead of 'a' : possessive?

A Shinéad, I think this is just one of those things you can't translate directly and so there's no "rule" for it. You just have to develop a "feel" for it by reading as many of those older texts as possible.

Okay I was afraid you'd say that! But thanks. I feel silly for not having taken more notice before and written down the other ones I had seen, but there is still time :D hehe

I read about a similar problem, when Spanish and German was compared.

In the chapter "Haben Sie Ihren Personalausweis dabei" (Do do have your passport with you) G. Aparicio writes in "Spanisch für Besserwisser" about "la inflación del posesivo: (rough translation)

You could think, the German language is steadily in fear, you could confuse the owner of things. So I say in German, when I have lost my purse: "Ich habe meine Geldbörse verloren", but in Spanish it is usual to say "he perdido la cartera"

Why should I indicate that it is my own purse. Normally I do not go about with the purse of my neighbour.

Very uneasy I feel, when asked in a bank, hotel or the administration: "Haben sie Ihren Personalausweis dabei" Of course it is my own passport, if I happen to have one with me. Or am I supposed to have the passport of another person with me.
Are the so many people who carry stolen or counterfeited passports with them. In Spanish it is simply "El carnet, por favor". ...

Perhaps English is by all accounts like German and Irish like Spanish?

How would you say in Irish:

"I have lost my purse"
"Your passport, please"

Would you use mo, do etc?

I have noticed the same thing before comparing Polish and English. Although Polish, like Latin and unlike Spanish, has no articles (a, the) at all, the possessive pronouns are used when it is really essential or for emphasis.

"I have lost my purse" - "Zgubiłam torebkę" (moją torebkę is unnecessary, the listener knows that when I say something it is related to me or my things, if it's not, I'll indicate the owner). Roughly: the subject of the sentence suggests the owner of the object.

"When did you lose your purse?" - "Kiedy zgubiłaś torebkę?" (twoją torebkę is unnecessary too, the same story).

I don't know, but maybe such "overusing" of the possessive pronouns has something to do with all the Germanic languages.

I think this is one of the significant features of the Irish language and perhaps an inkling of the Irish attitude to particular aspects of life: Irish does not use the possessives as much as we do in English. So it's "an dinnéar" -- "an bhean tí" or "bean an tí" (the wife), "an jab" ('the job' or even 'the auld job')etc. Is it a reflection of the communal life of poor people? "Bheith an-ghar duit féin" or selfishness is not admired.

Thanks Taidhgín that really puts it into perspective.

It's definitely one of those things that is hard to translate as such when you're speaking/writing Irish and still learning- I agree with those who says that it's part of the feel of the language and it'll hopefully come naturally to me in time :)

Then there's "The Donald" (Trump) who resides in Tir Nairciseas, and speaks his own, highly personalized English.

quote:

Is it a reflection of the communal life of poor people?

Conas d'fhéadfadh a bheith amhlaidh? There have been poor people everywhere, not just Ireland. It's best not to read too much into the arbitrary features of any language.

After all, the Irish also say, "Tá go leor idir lámha agam". Does this mean they also view their own hands as communal property which they merely have present use of?

This may be highly dependent on context and style.

Even more reason to avoid attributing any deeper significance to it.

I think that part of the answer to why these words act like this is inalienability, meaning, things that are integral to the body like body parts or things that are closely guarded, like money, cars, closthes etc. act a little differently (in many languages), for example, they don't have to be possessed in order for them to go back to their possesor. In French you'd say - I washed me hands, and if I'm not mistaken, it's the same in German.

You would use (not as a method, but the stakes are high here)"cuid" to precede Irish inalienable words.

And I guess that "an" and "a" are interchangeable because of that trait.

(I didn't do a research about this, but I tend to believe it).

When I learned French and German, my teachers on multiple occasions simply said, "every language uses the definite article differently, you just have to get used to it", or variations thereof. Irish is no different. (or should that be "Irish is also different"? (><))

I am not so sure about the "communal" thing either. "Communal handwashing" (ag ní na lámha) also came to mind. ;-)

Tá mé go maith ach tá an chois tinn. Lit. "I am well but the foot is sore." doesn't imply communal ownership of my foot, only that I probably already mentioned it to the listener at some stage previously or since I am talking about _my_ health I am obviously also talking about _my_ foot.

Even in colloquial English we say things like "I have to go and pick up the kids from school" even when it is only one's own children involved or "I walk the dog every evening." The implication is that the listener is aware of which dog is involved.

One thing I _was_ told by an Irish teacher early on is that Irish tends to use the article an + a singular noun to represent generalizations where modern English uses the plural, e.g. faoin bpolaitíocht "about politics", etc.

quote:

One thing I _was_ told by an Irish teacher early on is that Irish tends to use the article an + a singular noun to represent generalizations where modern English uses the plural, e.g. faoin bpolaitíocht "about politics", etc.

that's right.
When you say "She likes children" in Irish I think you'd say "Tá dúil aici sna páistí", if you say "i bpáistí" it means "she likes (some) children".
But many learners translate from English and don't use the article there, and actually their sentences don't mean what they want to say...

ag ní na lámh, with the genitive plural

Graiméar Gaeilge na mBráithre Críostaí

Leathanach 47; 7.14.

"Úsáidtear an t-alt freisin ...

in ionad na haidiachta sealbhaí: scoiltfidh mé an cloigeann aige; briseann sé an croí ionam.

Agus, from Speaking Irish, pg, 61:

You may have been surprised to hear Siobhán say Chas Liam leis an bhean chéile anseo. If this were to be translated word for word into English it would be “Liam met the wife here”. In fact, the use of the article instead of the words for his, hers, etc. is very common both in Irish and in the English spoken in Ireland when referring to people. English-speakers might say, for example, “Have you met the brother yet?” One might say of George W. Bush, Bhí an t-athair ina pholaiteoir chomh maith meaning “His father was also a politician.” Of course it wouldn’t be incorrect to use the possessive adjectives in any of these examples, for example, Bhí a athair ina pholaiteoir chomh maith.

The more examples you have given and the more I think about it, using 'an' instead of the possessive is so typical of Hiberno English- You wouldn't hear it from the D4 crowd ceart go leor, but yea it can be said in sarcasm, negatively, or just plain statement in day to day language.

I'd say though that if this is in the Irish texts I'd like to use it in my own written Irish and avoid using the possessive in cases where it wouldn't have been used by the native speakers.

quote:

I'd say though that if this is in the Irish texts I'd like to use it in my own written Irish and avoid using the possessive in cases where it wouldn't have been used by the native speakers.

I think it is still highly dependent on context. I imagine if someone overused it it would sound unnatural, whereas never using it and using the possessives would still sound natural.

Yeah I'll just be using it wherever it feels natural

Dúirt Sineadw

quote:

Yeah I'll just be using it wherever it feels natural

Yeah, me too. And I'll be after starting as soon as Irish begins to feel natural to me. That should be ere set of sun in or about the year 2098. Meanwhile, I'll be (after) relying on Aonghus and company to enlighten me when the Irish I murder most foul and unnatural. Which reminds me, has anyone ever thought that Shakespeare's characters spoke with an blas éireannach?

(Message edited by pádraig on September 17, 2009)

(Message edited by pádraig on September 17, 2009)

Haha gas you would ask that! I was talking to my teacher who is from Inverin and I was saying how the 'Do' that the Munster folk use in front of verbs in the past tense sounds a bit affected or 'high fallutant' (to me) and she said yeah it's Shakespearean-like :)