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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2009 (September-October) » Archive through November 01, 2009 » Very basic beginner: half deaf, and a bit dyslexic. « Previous Next »

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Daveat168
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Username: Daveat168

Post Number: 1
Registered: 08-2009
Posted on Thursday, September 10, 2009 - 06:22 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Dia duit a chara,
I have just finished Pimsleur 1, and looking at where to go next.
This all started some 10 years ago, when we went for a gypsy caravan holiday in Kerry.
I did not realize at the time, but from that moment, I was captured.
About 4 years ago, our son in law, found a cottage run by a lovely family near Caherdaniel, and we spent a week there.
No-where have I felt so much at home.
Then the Swansea Cork ferry closed.
We live in Bristol, and alternative routes to Kerry were impractical.
This last year, with a couple of friends from Yorkshire, we went again, this time using Liverpool to Dublin.
It was good, but the 5 hour drive from Dublin to Kerry took 8 hours, it was good that we could sleep on the boat.
The week went fine, we could have stayed, but plans got in the way.
Again we met some lovely people.
Now there is something better than a rumour that the Swansea Cork ferry is going to re-open.
On 1st March 2010.
My 67th birthday!
I thought to celebrate on the boat, and later in the Blind Piper at Caherdaniel.
And I remembered a song,
First heard performed by Luke Kelly and Ciaron Bourke, of the Dubliners, which many years ago, I had tried to learn.
Most of the English verses I remember quite well, but the 2 Irish verses, only poorly, and no-one seems able to help me.
The people at <www.irishgaelictranslator.com/> were very helpful, but they could only give the Richard Barratt original verses.
A long search of the Internet eventually turned up a set of Irish verses publised by Irish Socialist, of which, 3 verses seemed to closely match the English verses sung, but differed in detail from the Irish verses.
So, I found myself struggling to understand spoken, or sung Irish.
So I came to Pimsleur.
But Pimsleur teaches no reading or writing.
So I tried to develop a simple phonetic spelling system.
Then everything hit the fan.
The cat was to eat me, and the devil to eat the cat.
People I had thought of, and treated as friends wanted nothing more than to see my departing back.
A more friendly person suggested I might find what I am looking for here.
You might look at the mess I made on the other site, I used the same screen name as here, and that would save repeating all I have already posted.
Go raibh maith agat.
Slán.
Dave.

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Abigail
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Username: Abigail

Post Number: 1135
Registered: 06-2006


Posted on Thursday, September 10, 2009 - 06:55 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Fáilte romhat, a Dave.

A more friendly person suggested I might find what I am looking for here.
You might. (So what are you looking for? Song lyrics, translations of song lyrics, help with Pimsleur, help with phonetics...?)

Tá fáilte roimh chuile cheartú!

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Daveat168
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Username: Daveat168

Post Number: 2
Registered: 08-2009
Posted on Friday, September 11, 2009 - 08:14 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Dia duit a hAbigail,
Before I go into detail, let me give a brief description of Q+D.
Quick and Dirty is a phonetic alphabet system which is actually, (though I did not know at the time), a development of the phonetic key described in the Educational Irish English Pronouncing Dictionary.
What I have done is to apply a strict discipline to what was an undisciplined system, and based the sounds encoded on a Latin basis in the first approximation, and used as much as is practical of Irish orthography to tune it to the Irish mores.
This is definitely not an attempt by an outsider to tell the Irish how to spell. It is an attempt to enable someone who does not understand the meaning of the sound, to express the sound in a way that an Irish person might understand.
A little bit like the way the Japanese use Katakana to encode foreign words.
In a very obscure way, Irish and Japanese are similar.
The written language in each culture does not directly encode the sound of the spoken word, but rather encodes the sense and the grammar. Hence, without an understanding of the sense and the grammar behind a word, it is impossible to spell the word in Irish. It is further impossible to make a phonetic approximation, or first guess, without understanding the word.
At least, that is my understanding.
This is not a criticism of the Irish system of writing.
Understanding how the writing came into existence brings awe and wonder, that a Latin speaking monk was able to take the multitude of dialects, and find a common grammar to fit them all, he was able to devise a system readable in any dialect, even though the spoken word was only poorly understood across dialects.
That is, it does not matter whether you speak Mandarin or Cantonese, as long as you can read and write, for what a Cantonese writes, can be read by a Mandarin. That is what the Irish written language achieved, not for just two dialects but for half a dozen, and not with thousands of symbols, but a few tens.
Phonetics is not my discipline, but I have spent half a lifetime studying signal processing and data encoding and data redundancy.
Having finished Pimsleur, I see how easy it is to learn spoken Irish, but I also understand how intimidating the Irish grammar and orthography is. Pimsleur works by putting grammar on the back burner. Indeed, that is how you learn on your mother's knee.
You might think of Q+D as 'baby-script'
Have I already gone too far?
Or do you want to see more?
Ultimately I want to describe some sounds, to see if the sounds are just a corrupt noise, or whether they have some meaning, and if so, to generate the correct Irish spelling.
Also I would like to continue learning Irish, but with the emphasis on the Munster dialect, specifically, Kerry.
Go raibh maith agat.
Slán.
Dave.

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Cionaodh
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Username: Cionaodh

Post Number: 683
Registered: 05-2005


Posted on Friday, September 11, 2009 - 09:20 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Dave, Dia dhuit.

In case you'd like to have another run at the Pimsleur course, here are transcripts and some vocabulary:

http://www.gaeilge.org/pimsleurtranscript.html

The omission of such a transcript by the course authors is rather unfortunate.

Learning to speak Irish in an aural-only fashion from a course of very limited duration might help a person pronounce well, but he/she will have a very limited vocabulary and be functionally illiterate.

Two courses in Munster Irish will help you take the next step after Pimsleur:

1. Teach Yourself Irish by Myles Dillon & Donncha Ó Cróinín (1960). This book teaches West Cork Irish. The phonetics in the book are, in my opinion, a bit dodgy. However, there was audio for this course available on LP records (contact me off-list for help finding the audio).

2. An Ghaeilge : podręcznik do nauki języka irlandzkiego by Aidan Doyle & Edmund Gussmann (2005). This book teaches Corca Dhuibhne (Kerry) Irish via Polish. However, there's a Yahoo group that studies with this book, and the grammar notes have been translated to English: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/munster_irish/ . Alas, there's no audio for this book.

One of the founders of the Gaelic League, Douglas Hyde, learnt his Irish from native speakers and transcribed it phonetically -- he later had to relearn everything with correct orthography once he had access to written materials. I'm sure if he could speak from his grave he'd tell you to get the spelling right the first time.

http://www.gaeilge.org

FRC - Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin

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Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh
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Username: Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh

Post Number: 658
Registered: 09-2006


Posted on Friday, September 11, 2009 - 10:09 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Also, be heartened on another point, Dave: I will respectfully disagree with your assertion that written Irish does not directly encode the sound of the spoken word. It most assuredly does, and it does so fairly ingeniously.

The difficulty here is that the orthographic rules employed are A) somewhat complicated, and B) it's difficult to come by a sytematic and clearly presented explanation of those rules.

(Message edited by Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh on September 11, 2009)

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Abigail
Member
Username: Abigail

Post Number: 1138
Registered: 06-2006


Posted on Saturday, September 12, 2009 - 05:55 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Phonetics is not my discipline, but I have spent half a lifetime studying signal processing and data encoding and data redundancy.


Nice to see another coding theorist on the board!

If this orthographic system you're describing works for you, go for it. As Cionaodh says I'd be wary of it becoming a crutch... I've known learners who've done that with English-style phonetics (the JEE-ah GWITT lark) and it's not ended particularly well. My own take is that it's better to get stuck into Irish orthography directly - may be intimidating at first, but as you say, it will give you a leg up on the grammar too.

A couple points of concern:
(1) Can your system - does it - distinguish slender from broad consonants? I mean all consonants, including the likes of c, p where the difference isn't deafeningly obvious to the average English speaker. Those distinctions are vitally important in Irish, so any approach that brushes them under the rug now will be counterproductive to put it mildly.

(2) Think about where you expect to use it, and with whom. For private note-taking? With other Pimsleur learners? Simply put, most adult learners don't go through a pre-orthographic stage where such a scheme would have much appeal. (The exceptions are people who are learning from an audio-only course like Pimsleur, and aren't aware of the transcripts and supplemental materials available for it.)

Tá fáilte roimh chuile cheartú!

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Daveat168
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Username: Daveat168

Post Number: 3
Registered: 08-2009


Posted on Saturday, September 12, 2009 - 06:29 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Dia dhuit a Chionaodh,
Many thanks for the link to the Pimsleur transcript.
That will save me many hours transcription.
I was going to transcribe it myself into Q+D, but the orthographic transcript already shows my errors of hearing.
(Deaf old bu****).
I still think a Q+D transcript will be useful, even more so parallel to an orthographic transcript. The main advantage of Q+D over standard phonetic systems is its compactness, being nearly as compact as the orthograpy.
I have already bought the latest TYI, which teaches the standard dialect, but I had heard on the net, that the tendency towards Munster is still present. In any case, as long as I keep my ears tuned to Munster, then I will unconsciously convert the modern course into Munster, or a fair approximation.
Unless I meet a strong objection to using the Q+D, I will give a detailed description of how it operates. You may be surprised as to how un-English it is!

I think learning Polish will be an extra burden, so I will stick to plan A, but keep an eye open for the 1960 version at bootsales, and on Ebay.
Go raibh maith agat.
Dave.

Mar sin is dá bhrí sin, níl beart níos críonna
Ná bheith go síoraí ag cur preab san ól.

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Daveat168
Member
Username: Daveat168

Post Number: 4
Registered: 08-2009


Posted on Saturday, September 12, 2009 - 06:41 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Dia dhuit a Dhomhnall,
I do know where you are coming from, and I do know that the official/standard dialect has involved a bold struggle with the orthography, to make it more nearly 'sic scriptum', or 'as written'.
These efforts have had limited success, but at great cost to the original purpose of the orthography, which thereby loses its universality, being converted to an organ of the official/standard dialect.
This is in my view a pity.
My view is that there needs be no direct connection between speech and writing.
Ask any Chinese!
Even so, a phonetic system does have the advantage of being a vehicle for foreign, or not-understood sounds.
Go raibh maith agat.
Dave.

Mar sin is dá bhrí sin, níl beart níos críonna
Ná bheith go síoraí ag cur preab san ól.

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Daveat168
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Username: Daveat168

Post Number: 5
Registered: 08-2009


Posted on Saturday, September 12, 2009 - 07:23 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Dia Dhuit a hAbigail,
Quote:
If this orthographic system you're describing works for you, go for it. As Cionaodh says I'd be wary of it becoming a crutch... I've known learners who've done that with English-style phonetics (the JEE-ah GWITT lark) and it's not ended particularly well. My own take is that it's better to get stuck into Irish orthography directly - may be intimidating at first, but as you say, it will give you a leg up on the grammar too.

No, I deliberately avoid this use of bastardized English. The intent is to use it only to convey sounds which are not understood, or whose grammar is not understood. As the meanings become known, the intent is to slip quietly into orthography. Thus, this in itself becomes a learning tool for the orthography.

Quote:
A couple points of concern:
(1) Can your system - does it - distinguish slender from broad consonants? I mean all consonants, including the likes of c, p where the difference isn't deafeningly obvious to the average English speaker. Those distinctions are vitally important in Irish, so any approach that brushes them under the rug now will be counterproductive to put it mildly.

The system is built on a simplification of the Irish orthography, but it is used strictly 'sic scriptum'. That is 'a' is always pronounced as an 'a', never as an 'e', as can happen in the orthography.
Broad ans slender is encoded similarly to the orthography, but complex rule leading to clumsy spelling are avoided by using semivowels, 'y', and 'w' as glides instead of true vowels. 'j' is used as a special case of 'y' which implies sibilance in the preceding slender consonant.
Of course, if the difference between broad and slender is imperceptible to the hearer, then it will naturally not be encoded. The system only transcribes what is heard.

Quote:
(2) Think about where you expect to use it, and with whom. For private note-taking? With other Pimsleur learners? Simply put, most adult learners don't go through a pre-orthographic stage where such a scheme would have much appeal. (The exceptions are people who are learning from an audio-only course like Pimsleur, and aren't aware of the transcripts and supplemental materials available for it.)

I think you are pretty much on the nail here.
I do think that a parallel Q+D text might help with the orthographic transcript, but it was actually developed for writing down the sound I perceived while listening to the Dubliners.
Are you happy for me to continue?
Go raibh maith agat.
Dave.

Mar sin is dá bhrí sin, níl beart níos críonna
Ná bheith go síoraí ag cur preab san ól.

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Daveat168
Member
Username: Daveat168

Post Number: 6
Registered: 08-2009


Posted on Saturday, September 12, 2009 - 11:29 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Dia dhuit a chara,
Here is what I found on the net.
There may be typos, and some might be mine.
This set of verses seems to be the best fit to the Dubliners' version. Viz:

IRISH SOCIALIST, April, 1970 - Page Two
BALLAD CORNER
by John McDonnel

PREAB SAN ÓL

Is iomaí slí sin a bhios ag daoine
Ag cruinniú píosaí is ag déanamh stóir,
Is a laghaad a smaoinid ar ghiorra an tsaoil seo,
Is go mbeidh siad sínte faoi leac go fóill.
Más tiarna tíre, diúc nó rí thú,
Ní cuirfear pighin leat 's tú ag dul faoin bhfod:
Mar sin 's dá bhrí sin, níl beart níos críonna
Ná bheith go síoraí ag cur preab san ól.

Tá dream de dhaoine le ba is le caoirigh,
Ag dul chun aonaigh 's ag fáil dochar/sochar mór,
Dá gcur chun cíbe agus as sin go mínligh-
Pointí críonna do feictear dhóibh.
Ach déantar fíanaise ar an mí seo
Go mbéid ag caoineadhh is ag sileadh deor:
Mar sin 's dá bhrí sin, níl beart níos críonna
Ná bheith go síoraí ag cur preab san ól.

An ceannaí craosach níl meon ná slí ar bith
Le ór a dhéanamh nach bhfeictear dhó,
An ráta is daoire ar an earra is saoire,
Is ar luach sé phinge do cuirfeadh coróin;
'S do réir chaint Chríosta is ní do-dhéanta
An camall cíocrach 'thabhairt tríd an gcró
Mar sin 's dá bhrí sin, níl beart níos críonna
Ná bheith go síoraí ag cur preab san ól.

Is gearr an saol tá an an lilí sciamhach
Cé gur buí agus gur geal a ghabháil,
Is Solamh crínna ina chulaith riúil
Nach bhfuil baol air in áille dhó.
Níl sa tsaol seo ach mar soinneán gaoithe,
Ga a scaoiltear nó slám de cheo:
Mar sin 's dá bhrí sin, níl beart níos críonna
Ná bheith go síoraí ag cur preab san ól.

What think you?
Is it grammatically correct, and does it make linguistic sense, or is it full of uncorrectable errors.

Here is how I hear the Dubliners' two Irish verses, compared with two of the verses above:

My hearing of the Dubliner's verses compared with the Irish Socialist verses is something like this:

Dubliners using Quick and Dirty phonetics
Irish Socialist, as written, obvious typos corrected

is suma glí a vwils ég léna
Is iomaí slí sin do bhíos ag daoine

e xrenog píyana 's ah dérná stóy
Ag cruinniú píosaí 's ag déanamh stóir,

is lédach elvnya sted ér an teyl sjox
Is a laghad a smaoiníos ar ghiorra a’ tsaoil seo,

an mé sjid sjíntjû fayn lich go foyl
Go mbeidh siad sínte faoi leac go fóill.

más tjihrna tjira dyox nó riyó
Más tiarna tíre, diúc no rí thú,

ní racha peyan lá feyan voyd
Ní rachaidh pingin leat ‘s tú ‘dul faoin bhfód,

má sjin na ví sjin níl bag niyos creyna
Mar sin is dá bhrí sin, níl beart níos críonna

Ná verra sjírí cayl prab san ól
Ná bheith go síoraí ag cur preab san ól.


is suma glih vihr sa ga lilí scírva
Is gearr an saol tá ag an lilí sciamhach

gír gad huisj guhr gér la xróyn
Cé gur buí agus gur geal a ghabháil,

soloman criyona ina xola írxó
Is Solamh críonna ina chulaith riúil

ni vér sjong arvor vér sjon ír gulór
Nach bhfuil baol air in áille dhó.

xo níl sataol sj-ox má syonan gwiha
Ni satsaol seo ach mar soinneán gaoithe,

no slan na scwílya nó slám nan xjod
Ga a scaoiltear nó slám de cheo:

má sjin na ví sjin níl bag niyos creyna
Mar sin is dá bhrí sin, níl beart níos críonna

Ná verra sjírí vér cayl prab san ól
Ná bheith go síoraí ag cur preab san ól.

So now, Are/were the Dubliners lost for words, or are they singing a slightly different version.
Incidentally, the Tossers seem to be singing exactly the same words as the Dubliners. Both Tossers and Dubliners can be found on Utube, performing this song.
Google "preab san ol youtube".


Go raibh maith agat.
Slán
Dave.

Mar sin is dá bhrí sin, níl beart níos críonna
Ná bheith go síoraí ag cur preab san ól.

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Abigail
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Username: Abigail

Post Number: 1139
Registered: 06-2006


Posted on Saturday, September 12, 2009 - 12:46 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I should say a slightly different version (not unusual with folk/trad songs.) Part of it may also be down to poor pronunciation and/or poor transcription.

Are you wanting a transcription of the Tossers/Dubliners version, then?

Tá fáilte roimh chuile cheartú!

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Cionaodh
Member
Username: Cionaodh

Post Number: 684
Registered: 05-2005


Posted on Saturday, September 12, 2009 - 01:15 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

As an unrelated aside, the Q+D phonetics demonstrated above look somewhat like the Leitriú Shimplí orthographic revisions championed by Shán Ó Cuív (1875-1940) in the first half of the 20th century.

Gaeilgeoirí largely rejected Ó Cuív's reforms, so his orthographic style is available only in a small handful of books, most written by Ó Cuív himself.

http://www.gaeilge.org

FRC - Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin

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Abigail
Member
Username: Abigail

Post Number: 1140
Registered: 06-2006


Posted on Saturday, September 12, 2009 - 02:16 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

OK, here's a link to the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyFoT7HgIr0

The singer seemingly has good Irish but I would say he's phoning it in on this one. His repetition of "bheith" in the last line, and the occasional garble elsewhere (increasing toward the end of the song - I've decoded it as well as I can), seem to me to support this.

Anyway, here's what I make of it:
Is iomaí caoi a bhíos ag daoine
Ag cruinniú pinghiní is ag déanamh stóir,
Is a laghad a chuimhníos gur ghearr an tsaol seo,
Is go mbeidh siad sínte fén leic go fóill.
Más tiarna tíre, diúc nó rí thú,
Ní rachaidh pinghin leat fén bhfód:
Mar sin, dá bhrí sin, níl beart níos críonna
Ná bheith go síoraí ag cur preab san ól.

Is iomaí dlí bhíos ag an lilí sciamhach
Cé gur buí agus gur geal a choróin,
Solomon críonna ina chulaith rioghúil
Ní bheadh sé in ábhar bheith _____ go leor [can't make sense of this bit]
Ó níl sa tsaol seo ach mar soinneán gaoithe,
An slám nár scaoileadh nó slám den cheo:
Mar sin, dá bhrí sin, níl beart níos críonna
Ná bheith go síoraí [bheith] ag cur preab san ól. [bheith shouldn't be in here twice but it is]

Tá fáilte roimh chuile cheartú!

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Daveat168
Member
Username: Daveat168

Post Number: 7
Registered: 08-2009


Posted on Saturday, September 12, 2009 - 02:16 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Dia dhuit a Chionaodh,
I have just Googled Leitriú Shimplí.
What I found was not much information but more anger than I could have imagined.
Is this the reason why raising such an idea in another place caused such a reaction.

Actually, I could not have put it plainer, I believe that attempts to turn written Irish into a phonetic representation of spoken Irish was, and is a disaster for the Irish Language.

Classical illiteracy was the basis of Irish, and should not be devalued.
A widely used spoken language is far more useful than a fully literate language which is virtually dead.

There should be room for 'baby-spell' alongside Irish orthography.

But even that is not what I was trying to suggest.
It was for the specific use of transcribing sounds for which the meaning and/or grammar was not understood.

Like Katakana in Japanese.

Mar sin is dá bhrí sin, níl beart níos críonna
Ná bheith go síoraí ag cur preab san ól.

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Breandán
Member
Username: Breandán

Post Number: 312
Registered: 12-2008


Posted on Saturday, September 12, 2009 - 03:28 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Hi, Dave.

I taught Irish (and a little English) to Japanese people in Japan. For Irish, the older ones required Katakana transcriptions; the younger ones preferred IPA. The system(s) used in Learning Irish and Foclóir Póca is a little confusing at first but is still the best approximation for Irish without going into full IPA.

Rather than introduce yet another variation, I found it easier to get the Japanese working with the Learning Irish/Foclóir Póca system by explaining the differences between that and IPA. Are you familiar with Learning Irish or Foclóir Póca?

I have also developed my own text-based phonetic spelling system for English, based loosely on Romaji and Pinyin. When I tried to use it to teach English in Japan I got various reactions. First, those who could already read IPA preferred to stick to it because they can use it elsewhere. Those who accepted my system liked it but said I would need to make dictionaries for it to be useful outside the classroom. (A third group consisted of those who couldn't think outside their katakana box.)

One useful thing I did found, was that by getting students to try to transcribe into my system, I was able to pinpoint those places where they were mishearing phonemes. (When I first learned German our teachers made us transcribe conversations into IPA for this same reason.) Again, the same objective could be achieved using IPA or the Learning Irish/Foclóir Póca system.

Thus I know where you are coming from - and the hurdles and resistance you are facing. I will help if I can, but as Abigail says, your system may have limited utility outside your own classroom. Haven't had a chance to listen to the songs themselves just yet...

Anyway, good luck agus Ná caill do chroí (Ná xály do xrí (?)) "Don't loose heart".

Brendan


First questions: How are you planning to represent the distinction between broad and slender "l" (/L/ /L'/)? (essential)
And their lenited variants ( /l/ and /l'/)? (probably not so vital)
And broad and slender "r" (/r/ and /r'/)? (essential)

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Daveat168
Member
Username: Daveat168

Post Number: 8
Registered: 08-2009


Posted on Saturday, September 12, 2009 - 05:26 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Dia dhuit a hAbigail,
Fantastic work.
Many people have sought these words
You have 95% at the first attempt.
The troublesome line is here compared to the equivalent Irish Socialist line:

ni vér sjong arvor vér xon ír gulór
Nach bhfuil baol air in áille dhó.

Could 'xon' be my hearing of 'dhó'?
and
could 'ír' be my hearing of 'air'?

From context, I would expect these two lines to have a similar meaning.

As for this verse:

An ceannaí craosach níl meon ná slí ar bith
Le ór a dhéanamh nach bhfeictear dhó,
An ráta is daoire ar an earra is saoire,
Is ar luach sé phinge do cuirfeadh coróin;
'S do réir chaint Chríosta is ní do-dhéanta
An camall cíocrach 'thabhairt tríd an gcró
Mar sin 's dá bhrí sin, níl beart níos críonna
Ná bheith go síoraí ag cur preab san ól.

It seems to match the huxter greedy verse in English.
I spy a camel!

I hope it was not arrogance, but from Brid's literal translation, and supposed context of Our Lord's similitudes, I hazarded this interpretation of the following Irish Socialist verse:

Tá dream de dhaoine le ba is le caoirigh,
Ag dul chun aonaigh 's ag fáil dochar/sochar mór,
Dá gcur chun cíbe agus as sin go mínligh-
Pointí críonna do feictear dhóibh.
Ach déantar fíanaise ar an mí seo
Go mbéid ag caoineadhh is ag sileadh deor:
Mar sin 's dá bhrí sin, níl beart níos críonna
Ná bheith go síoraí ag cur preab san ól.

The livestock farmer, with beasts to barter,
Takes them to market, profit to make.
He has but small care, for creature wellfare,
Or suff'ring they'll bear, to raise his take.
But watch and wait now, a month will show how,
Who owned just one cow, in tears is found.
If you're not caring, how fate's preparing,
you'll not be sharing - in, another round

This verse I believe recalls the tale of the farmer who built new barns for his bumper crop, only to be summoned by the grim reaper.

Suggested adjustments would be most welcome.

I also did this verse from Richard Barratts version

Is olc an tsli bheith ag ardu cíosa,
Ag déanamh daoirse 'gus tacsaí mór'
Ag cur na ndaoine ó rath 's ó dhídean,
Ní faraoir atá cinnte dóibh
An té a níos sin, is dó is baolai,
A bheith in íochtar á bhruith 's á dhó
Mar sin . . .

I found the verse above in a talking blues version.
It is very similar to Richad Barratt's verse, and with it came the following translation:
It's a bad thing o raise rents
Enslaving people with high taxes
Throwing people out of their homes,
a fate that awaits many.
He who does that is in great danger
of ending up in hell, to be burnt or boiled
So...

Thus taking this very literal translation, having checked it out against a dictionary,
Here is my offering:

It is an evil like rat or weevil
to tax poor people beyond their means:
to put in danger both friend and stranger
of need of manger to raise their wains.
But who should do that, on mis'ry grown fat,
proud, in his tall hat, to hell is bound.
Why are you earning infernal burning?
Come, take your turn in Another round!

This verse I believe, recalls the calling of Matthew.

Likewise, adjustments would be most welcome.

So now I have the choice of verses.
I tend to favour the Irish Socialist verses where the Dubliners' are lacking, so now it's down to pronunciation, and reconstruction of the garbled line.

Go raibh maith agat.
Slán
Dave.

Mar sin is dá bhrí sin, níl beart níos críonna
Ná bheith go síoraí ag cur preab san ól.

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Daveat168
Member
Username: Daveat168

Post Number: 9
Registered: 08-2009


Posted on Saturday, September 12, 2009 - 06:16 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Dia dhuit a Bhrendan,
You wrote:
I taught Irish (and a little English) to Japanese people in Japan. For Irish, the older ones required Katakana transcriptions; the younger ones preferred IPA. The system(s) used in Learning Irish and Foclóir Póca is a little confusing at first but is still the best approximation for Irish without going into full IPA.

Rather than introduce yet another variation, I found it easier to get the Japanese working with the Learning Irish/Foclóir Póca system by explaining the differences between that and IPA. Are you familiar with Learning Irish or Foclóir Póca?

No, I haven't got there yet.
I've just done Pimsleur, and have just acquired TYI.

You wrote:
I have also developed my own text-based phonetic spelling system for English, based loosely on Romaji and Pinyin. When I tried to use it to teach English in Japan I got various reactions. First, those who could already read IPA preferred to stick to it because they can use it elsewhere. Those who accepted my system liked it but said I would need to make dictionaries for it to be useful outside the classroom. (A third group consisted of those who couldn't think outside their katakana box.)

Interesting, that comment about dictionaries. I was toying with the idea of transcribing the Educational pronouncing dictionary into an excel file, so that the Orthographic spelling, or Munster pronunciation, or Connaught pronunciation could be used as the key, converting the pronunciation key into Q+D.

You wrote:
One useful thing I did found, was that by getting students to try to transcribe into my system, I was able to pinpoint those places where they were mishearing phonemes. (When I first learned German our teachers made us transcribe conversations into IPA for this same reason.) Again, the same objective could be achieved using IPA or the Learning Irish/Foclóir Póca system.

Yes, this too, for I am aware that with my dubious hearing I am mishearing phonemes, confusing 'p' and 't', and 'b' and 'd'. Where Q+D has it over the standard phonetic systems is that it does not over specify the phoneme, and so can be encoded without an excessive number of codons.

You wrote:
Thus I know where you are coming from - and the hurdles and resistance you are facing. I will help if I can, but as Abigail says, your system may have limited utility outside your own classroom. Haven't had a chance to listen to the songs themselves just yet...

Anyway, good luck agus Ná caill do chroí (Ná xály do xrí (?)) "Don't loose heart".

Brendan

You seem to have a good grasp of the system already. However, 'y', 'j', and 'w' are only to be used as glides. hence I would have thought caill would be pronounced cayli.

You wrote:
First questions: How are you planning to represent the distinction between broad and slender "l" (/L/ /L'/)? (essential)

This could be difficult. This essentially depends upon hearing. If the difference in the sound is imperceptible to the hearer, the how will the hearer represent a sound (s)he does not hear?
The normal situation would be, a slender consonant will normally be followed by a slender vowel. If by a broad vowel, then a 'y' glide follows the consonnant, unless sibilance is implied, then a 'j' glide follows.
In the converse case, a 'w' glide is used.

You wrote:
And their lenited variants ( /l/ and /l'/)? (probably not so vital)
And broad and slender "r" (/r/ and /r'/)? (essential)

Essentially, the same applies. 'r' is difficult, some people trill, and some flap. This seems a matter of taste, like some people pronounce broad 't' as in 'tan', and some as in 'Thanet'. 'D' is similarly used. The system therefore does not differentiate these differences.

There is still much thought to go into this. I have to some extent sorted out the vowels, this is what I have so far:
Vowels
Unstressed or short vowels have, as a first approximation, their Latin values.
a as in hat, or cat, but never as in hay.
e as in bed, or led, but never as in meet.
i as in pin, or thin, but never as in mine or thine.
o as in pot or hot, but never as in pool or hole.
u as in rum or thumb.

û is the indistinct vowel, somewhere between a and u, most commonly found in the unstressed English definite article, and many Southern English words containing an unstressed u or a.

Stressed or long vowels are indicated by adding an accent, usually a rising, or French acute accent.
á as in far farther or father
é as in eight. (Note, the y sound commonly associated with this long vowel comes from the slender consonant usually following it.)
í as in ee sound in meet.
ó as in lord or cord, not as in coat or foal.
ú as in rude or the oo sound in food.

Instead of diphthongs, a vowel is used with a glide, and the glide is the appropriate consonantal vowel, that is, w or y
So the vowel sound in hay is a stressed é and a y glide. Hence: héy.
But the same sound unstressed, as in make is ey. Hence: meyc.
Likewise the vowel sound in mine is a stressed á and a y glide: máyn.
Also oil: oyl
The sound in boat, or coat, is not a pure vowel, but a diphthong of a stressed ó and a w glide, hence: bówt, cówt.
Curiously, the aw sounds and the ow sounds are reversed in English usage, each being pronounced as the other should be. German has it correct with frau and maus, so cow: caw, mouse: maws house: haws.

Go raibh maith agat.
Slán
Dave.

Mar sin is dá bhrí sin, níl beart níos críonna
Ná bheith go síoraí ag cur preab san ól.

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Abigail
Member
Username: Abigail

Post Number: 1141
Registered: 06-2006


Posted on Sunday, September 13, 2009 - 03:56 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

This essentially depends upon hearing. If the difference in the sound is imperceptible to the hearer, the how will the hearer represent a sound (s)he does not hear?


Ah, that's where Irish orthography comes in handy. "Capaill" is not "capall", whether I can hear a difference or not.

You can say that's all very well, we have homophones in English (aisle/isle) and we manage - but homophones in English are infrequent and isolated, whereas this broad/slender distinction goes right to the heart of Irish grammar (as both a plural and a genitive marker for many nouns.) One simply can't ignore it and rely on context to clarify which is meant.

So - given that you will need to hear and produce these different sounds before you can communicate effectively, I don't see any long-term (or even medium-term) advantage in not getting to grips with them right away.

Realize this may not be what you wanted to hear... sorry.

Tá fáilte roimh chuile cheartú!

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Breandán
Member
Username: Breandán

Post Number: 315
Registered: 12-2008


Posted on Sunday, September 13, 2009 - 06:14 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Dave,

Your system will work fairly well for English, but I am not sure that it will work so well for Irish.

First:
quote:

Unstressed or short vowels have, as a first approximation, their Latin values.
a as in hat, or cat, but never as in hay.
e as in bed, or led, but never as in meet.
i as in pin, or thin, but never as in mine or thine.
o as in pot or hot, but never as in pool or hole.
u as in rum or thumb.



You say that the short vowels have "Latin" values but the values in the examples you give here are the post-vowel shift English values.

The Latin values (all examples in BRP) would be:

a sounds like the "u" in "cup", i.e., closer to the "a" in "about" or the unstressed indefinite article "a dog" than the "a" in "cat"/æ/
e as in bed, or led, but never as in meet.
i as in pin, or thin, but never as in mine or thine.
o as in pot or hot, but never as in pool or hole.
u as in put, not putt.

Your long vowels are correct for Latin but incorrect for Irish. The Irish long "a" is partway between the above "a" and the above "o", similar to the American "o" in "hot" but a little more closed. This is represented by /ɑ/ in Learning Irish but not distinguished in Foclóir Póca.

If you are using the "a" in "cat" for the short "a" and the "a" in "father" for the long "a" you are probably mispronouncing the vowels "a" and "á" in Irish.

Second:

Irish glides are much less distinct than English diphthongs, yet all of the examples you have given are definite diphthongs. Although written the Irish glides letters "i", "o", etc., are barely pronounced (although they can affect the preceding vowel cluster).

Thus caill is /kɑ:L'/, with no diphthong. The /L'/ here is a dark "L" as in American "million". The glide "i", if any, comes in naturally and unavoidably as your mouth changes shape from the /ɑ:/ to the /L'/. It would be a mistake to pronounce it /kɑ:iL'/ with an "i" that is too distinct.


I think you need to get further along with your own understanding of Irish and its pronunciation before you attempt to devise a system for others.

I recommend Learning Irish as it has much more detailed transcription of pronunciation than other courses.

In short, and in keeping with what Abigail said, you need to know what the distinctions are and why they are so important before you can devise or refine a system such as the one you propose. And hopefully by then you will see the beauty and elegance of Irish orthography and of the existing transcription systems.

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Daveat168
Member
Username: Daveat168

Post Number: 10
Registered: 08-2009


Posted on Sunday, September 13, 2009 - 06:45 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Dia dhuit a hAbigail,

You wrote:
quote:

This essentially depends upon hearing. If the difference in the sound is imperceptible to the hearer, the how will the hearer represent a sound (s)he does not hear?


Ah, that's where Irish orthography comes in handy. "Capaill" is not "capall", whether I can hear a difference or not.

You can say that's all very well, we have homophones in English (aisle/isle) and we manage - but homophones in English are infrequent and isolated, whereas this broad/slender distinction goes right to the heart of Irish grammar (as both a plural and a genitive marker for many nouns.) One simply can't ignore it and rely on context to clarify which is meant.

So - given that you will need to hear and produce these different sounds before you can communicate effectively, I don't see any long-term (or even medium-term) advantage in not getting to grips with them right away.

Realize this may not be what you wanted to hear... sorry.

Yes, I understand exactly what you are saying, but Q+D is a transcription of what is heard, not an interpretation of the meaning, which is what the orthography is.
Puns and homophones of course will be indistinguishable, that is part of the 'Dirty'
It is up to the Irish reader to decode the transcribed sound into meaning, which is what the listner does every day.
Go raibh maith agat.
Slán.
Dave.

Mar sin is dá bhrí sin, níl beart níos críonna
Ná bheith go síoraí ag cur preab san ól.

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Daveat168
Member
Username: Daveat168

Post Number: 11
Registered: 08-2009


Posted on Sunday, September 13, 2009 - 09:40 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Dia dhuit a Bhrendan,
You wrote:

Your system will work fairly well for English, but I am not sure that it will work so well for Irish.

First:

quote:

Unstressed or short vowels have, as a first approximation, their Latin values.
a as in hat, or cat, but never as in hay.
e as in bed, or led, but never as in meet.
i as in pin, or thin, but never as in mine or thine.
o as in pot or hot, but never as in pool or hole.
u as in rum or thumb.



You say that the short vowels have "Latin" values but the values in the examples you give here are the post-vowel shift English values.

This is how I learned them from my Latin teacher, but she was German. besides, does anyone have a cd of native Latin pronunciation?!!

You wrote:
The Latin values (all examples in BRP) would be:

a sounds like the "u" in "cup", i.e., closer to the "a" in "about" or the unstressed indefinite article "a dog" than the "a" in "cat"/æ/
e as in bed, or led, but never as in meet.
i as in pin, or thin, but never as in mine or thine.
o as in pot or hot, but never as in pool or hole.
u as in put, not putt.

So the argument is about 'a' and 'u'. Actually, I do not understand the 'u' point. The words you chose are extremely variable in English.

You wrote:
Your long vowels are correct for Latin but incorrect for Irish. The Irish long "a" is partway between the above "a" and the above "o", similar to the American "o" in "hot" but a little more closed. This is represented by /ɑ/ in Learning Irish but not distinguished in Foclóir Póca.

I've looked at a Wikipedia site which give IPA(Irish) and Foclóir Póca in comparison, and added a column as how I think Q+D would fit, and notes as to how it would work.
the RTF file is here:
http://www.box.net/shared/xffvf9z8ci

You wrote:
If you are using the "a" in "cat" for the short "a" and the "a" in "father" for the long "a" you are probably mispronouncing the vowels "a" and "á" in Irish.

The sounds of IPA, and hence Q+D are not in accordance with the purported sounds of the orthography, which indeed is quite variable, though may be trammelled by some rules, which are however sufficiently complex to defeat abair.ie.
The Irish sounds will be fairly representd, but using different symbols in places.

You wrote:
Second:

Irish glides are much less distinct than English diphthongs, yet all of the examples you have given are definite diphthongs. Although written the Irish glides letters "i", "o", etc., are barely pronounced (although they can affect the preceding vowel cluster).

Thus caill is /kɑ:L'/, with no diphthong. The /L'/ here is a dark "L" as in American "million". The glide "i", if any, comes in naturally and unavoidably as your mouth changes shape from the /ɑ:/ to the /L'/. It would be a mistake to pronounce it /kɑ:iL'/ with an "i" that is too distinct.

The Educational Irish-English Pronouncing Dictionary, for 'caill', gives pronunciation according to its key, based upon bastardized English phonemes, (ko~il).
In Q+D, I would represent that as {coyl}.

You wrote:
I think you need to get further along with your own understanding of Irish and its pronunciation before you attempt to devise a system for others.

I recommend Learning Irish as it has much more detailed transcription of pronunciation than other courses.

Indeed, the table on box.net does have a reference column from Learning Irish.
The three systems are correlated with Q+D, and common orthographic usage.
The notes added at the end though are my attempts to make the system work using implicit broad and slender, rather than explicit.

You wrote:
In short, and in keeping with what Abigail said, you need to know what the distinctions are and why they are so important before you can devise or refine a system such as the one you propose. And hopefully by then you will see the beauty and elegance of Irish orthography and of the existing transcription systems.

You can see that Q+D is no more than a recoding of the existing systems into a more user friendly package.
I never had any intention to supplant the orthograpy. Indeed, I think that the orthography has already been too much mucked about with.

Go raibh maith agat.
Slán.
Dave.

ps, how do you do quotes on this site?
My way is very basic, and far too clumsy.

Mar sin is dá bhrí sin, níl beart níos críonna
Ná bheith go síoraí ag cur preab san ól.

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Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 8818
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Sunday, September 13, 2009 - 12:50 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

\ quote { }
leave out the spaces
quote:

Mar seo


And check the forum help for other clever tricks!

http://www.daltai.com/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/daltai/discus/discus.pl?pg=help

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Daveat168
Member
Username: Daveat168

Post Number: 12
Registered: 08-2009


Posted on Sunday, September 13, 2009 - 06:35 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Dia dhuit a chara,
Here is how the Q+D system correlates with the existing phonetic systems, at least as I see it.
I believe that the vowels here defined are as defined before as in the Educational Irish English Pronouncing Dictionary, and here specifically is how the consonants and semivowels are defined and used.
The table below is derived from the relevant Wikipedia entry for IPA Irish.

IPA Symbol inSymbol inSymbol inCommon spellings of this sound
Learning Irish Foclóir PócaQ+D(cf. Irish orthography)
a æ:, a: a aa, ai, ea, eai
ɑ: a: áá, ái, eá, eái
b b bb (next to a, o, u)
b′ b′ bb (next to e, i)
c k′ k′ cc (next to e, i)
ç x′ x′ xch (next to e, i)
d̪ˠ d d dd (next to a, o, u)
d′ d′ dd (next to e, i)
e: e: éé, éa, éi, ae, aei
ɛ e e ee, ei, oi
ə ə ə ûa, ai, e, ea, i (unstressed syllable)
əi ai ai ûyaigh, aidh, agh, adh, eagh, eadh, eigh, eidh
əu au au ûwabh, amh, eabh, eamh
f f ff (next to a, o, u)
f′ f′ ff (next to e, i)
ɡ g g gg (next to a, o, u)
ɣ ɣ γ qdh, gh (next to a, o, u)
h h h hh, sh, th
i: i: íí, ío, ao, aoi, uí, uío, aí, aío
ɪ i i ii, io, ui
i:ə iyûia, iai
j ɣ′ γ′ ydh, gh (next to e, i)
ɟ g′ g′ gg (next to e, i)
k k k cc (next to a, o, u)
l̪ˠ L l ll, ll (next to a, o, u)
l̠ʲ L′ l′ ll (word-initial before e, i), ll (next to e, i)
l′ l ll (word-internal or final next to e, i)
m m mm (next to a, o, u)
m′ m′ mm (next to e, i)
n̪ˠ N n nn, nn (next to a, o, u)
n̠ʲ N′ n′ nn (word-initial before e, i), nn (next to e, i)
n′ n nn (word-internal or final next to e, i)
ɲ ŋ′ ŋ′ ngng (next to e, i)
ŋ ŋ ŋ ngng (next to a, o, u)
o: o: óó, ói, eo, eoi
ɔ o o oo, oi
p p pp (next to a, o, u)
p′ p′ pp (next to e, i)
ɾˠ r r rr (next to a, o, u, and always word-initially), rr
ɾʲ r′ r′ rr (next to e, i unless word-initially)
s s ss (next to a, o, u)
ʃ s′ s′ sjs (next to e, i)
t̪ˠ t t tt (next to a, o, u)
t′ t′ tt (next to e, i)
u: u: úú, úi, iú, iúi
ʊ u u uu, io, iu
u:ə uwûua, uai
w′ v′ vbh, mh (next to e, i)
w w v vbh, mh (next to a, o, u)
x x x xch (next to a, o, u)


Notes on Q+D
Both 't' and 'd', when broad, are pronounced with the tip of the tongue on the tips of the upper teeth, (unlike English, on the bases). Thus the sound tends to leak, resembling, with some speakers, the English 'th' sound: 'th' as in 'than' for 'd', and 'Thanet', for 't'.
Some speakers pronounce the slender 't' as English 'ch', or Q+D 'tj', and 'd' as English 'j', Q+D 'dj'. These latter pronunciations are not considered proper by some.
There is no explicit difference between broad and slender consonants.
A consonant is broad before 'a' or 'á', 'o' or 'ó', 'u' or 'ú', or the semivowel 'w', or if terminal, after such a vowel, or semivowel.
A consonant is slender before 'e' or é', 'i' or 'í' or the semivowels 'y' or 'j', or if terminal, after such a vowel, or semivowel.
The semivowel 'j' differs from 'y' in that it implies special sibilance to the preceding consonant, thus it is only normally found after an 's', and may be found therefore before a slender vowel to affirm the special sibilance of the 's'.
In this system, two vowels are never put together without a semivowel glide in between.


This posting is an edited version of what I have posted on box.net, and supercedes that posting.

Perhaps this discussion should have its own thread, or perhaps, having defined the system, it should lie quiet for a while.
I am open to suggestion.
Go raibh maith agat.
Slán
Dave.

(Message edited by daveat168 on September 13, 2009)

Mar sin is dá bhrí sin, níl beart níos críonna
Ná bheith go síoraí ag cur preab san ól.

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Breandán
Member
Username: Breandán

Post Number: 316
Registered: 12-2008


Posted on Sunday, September 13, 2009 - 08:43 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Dave,

Thanks for the overview of your system. That is much easier to evaluate.

It looks broadly workable with a bit of tinkering here and there.

quote:

The semivowel 'j' differs from 'y' in that it implies special sibilance to the preceding consonant, thus it is only normally found after an 's', and may be found therefore before a slender vowel to affirm the special sibilance of the 's'.



This also applies to the medial and final slender "r". This "r" in natural Irish is a sibilant very much like the Chinese "zh" or French "g" /ʒ/. Therefore I would suggest that "r (next to e, i unless word-initially)" ɾʲ (/r′/ /r′/) be represented by Q+D "rj", e.g. ríomhaire /ri:wər'ə/ Q+D ríwûrjû.

I think the glide coming off each consonant is much more important than the one going on. I would also suggest that you represent the broadness or slenderness of final consonants consistently. I always suggest that learners add a slight "y" /j/ to the final slender consonant of the plural even if they can't hear one early on. These sound differences become clearer when the word in placed in a sentence, particularly when a weak vowel follows.

Let us take the example of bád "boat". The singular is bád /bɑ:d/ and the plural is báid /bɑ:d'/. In these two words, only the "d" is different. The difference is most definitely NOT the addition of an explicit glide before the "d". Trying to distinguish them by Q+D bád and báyd would be incorrect. They would be better represented in Q+D as "bád" and "bádj" respectively.

As stated above, where these differences become most apparent is when a weak vowel follows the consonant in question:

Tá bád anseo. /tɑ: bɑ:d ən's'o/ "There is a boat here."
Tá báid anseo. /tɑ: bɑ:d' ən's'o/ "There are boats here."

In the first sentence the /ə/ is schwaa and in the second sentence the /ə/ is schwee, the slender version of schwaa. The result is that the singular /bɑ:d ən'/ is closer to /bɑ:dan'/ with a "dan", and the plural /bɑ:d' ən'/ is closer to /ba:d'in/ with a "dyin" or "jin" sound.

Thus, I suggest representing these two sentences in Q+D as:

Tá bád anseo. /tɑ: bɑ:d ən's'o/ => Tá bád ûnsjo.
Tá báid anseo. /tɑ: bɑ:d' ən's'o/ => Tá bádj insjo.

I leave this for your contemplation.

Brendan

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Daveat168
Member
Username: Daveat168

Post Number: 13
Registered: 08-2009


Posted on Monday, September 14, 2009 - 05:02 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Dia dhuit a Bhrendan,
There is always going to be a problem trying to convert orthography into Q+D.
This is exactly the problem that abair.ie has.
The orthography does not specificly encode sounds. Such sounds as it does encode are only very approximate, and intended as a mneumonic.
Q+D specificly encodes the sound, so if the speaker 'sibilates' the 'd' in 'dia', and the 't' in 'dhuit', then the writer will write /Djiyû gwitj/. Incidentally, a 'y' following an 'i' automatically lengthens it so fada is not needed.
The English 'j' sound is 'dj' not 'dy'. In 'dy', the 'd' is fully pronounced as a stop, having no sibilance.
If you listen to an educated Indonesian pronouncing Djakarta, while in Malay the 'j' is a straight Latin consonantal 'i', you can hear that the 'd' is a true stop, and not a sibilant.
Hence the proper pronunciation, (Munster), of "dia dhuit" would be /diyû gwit/.
quote:

Tá bád anseo. /tɑ: bɑ:d ən's'o/ => Tá bád ûnsjo.
Tá báid anseo. /tɑ: bɑ:d' ən's'o/ => Tá bádj insjo.


If that is what you would say, or hear, that is what you write.
Also, the implied vowels that creep between incompatible consonants must in Q+D be explicitly shown, as it is the sound being encoded, not the grammar.
Go raibh maith agat.
Slán.
Dave.

Mar sin is dá bhrí sin, níl beart níos críonna
Ná bheith go síoraí ag cur preab san ól.

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Breandán
Member
Username: Breandán

Post Number: 320
Registered: 12-2008


Posted on Monday, September 14, 2009 - 05:30 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Dave,

quote:

Also, the implied vowels that creep between incompatible consonants must in Q+D be explicitly shown, as it is the sound being encoded, not the grammar.



Hmm, to all intents and purposes sound is grammar, that is to say all necessary grammar must be encoded in the sounds otherwise no verbal communication would be possible. Perhaps what you mean is "it is the sound being encoded not the spelling."

I am somewhat suspicious of your audio source(s) if the "proper" pronunciation of Dia dhuit that was given made you arrive at Q+D /diyû gwit/ with a /g/.

If the speaker was a true native then the pronunciation should be /d'i:ə γit'/ with a voiced velar fricative /γ/ (some might even say it is closer to a uvular fricative) not a voiced uvular plosive. According to your chart above, that is Q+D /q/, not /g/ (Q+D /g/). Thus in your own system that would be (ignoring the "d" and "t" for now) /diyû qwit/ rather than /diyû gwit/.

If the source you used definitely said /diyû gwit/ with a /g/, then it is probably anglicised Neo-Irish, not native Irish.

quote:

The English 'j' sound is 'dj' not 'dy'. In 'dy', the 'd' is fully pronounced as a stop, having no sibilance.



Some confusion may have arisen as I was unsure of the exact sound value you place on /j/ in Q+D. In phonetics, /j/ represents what in English would be a "y" sound. What sound value does it assume in your system? Is it more like the French "j" /ʒ/?

The Irish /d'i/ [dji] is neither a "di" [di] nor a "ji" [dʒi] but rather closer to "dyi" . Anglicized pronunciations by some non-native speakers result in a /di:ə/ which is closer to a broad "d" in Irish or a /dʒi:ə/ with an English "j" sound. English accepts both "dyiwona" and "jiwona" for "do you want to" (at least colloquially it does); Native Irish doesn't (though one might hear it as such with an anglicized ear).

So what we are aiming for with the slender "d" /d'/ [dj] and "t" [tj] is a way of representing two sounds that are neither broad "d" /d/ [dˠ] and "t" /t/ [tˠ], nor "j" [dʒ] and "ch" [t∫], respectively (and likewise for all consonants).

As has been pointed out above, we shouldn't assume that because an untrained ear cannot hear something that a distinction is not important. A transcription system is meant to point out to untrained ears specifically what to listen for so that they can become trained to the distinction. Any system that ignores or fudges over these details will be doing the learner a disservice.

Brendan

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Daveat168
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Username: Daveat168

Post Number: 14
Registered: 08-2009


Posted on Tuesday, September 15, 2009 - 03:09 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Dia dhuit a Bhrendan,
quote:

Hmm, to all intents and purposes sound is grammar, that is to say all necessary grammar must be encoded in the sounds otherwise no verbal communication would be possible. Perhaps what you mean is "it is the sound being encoded not the spelling."


Lingusticly, what you say might be theoretically true, but the sound might be nonsense, in which case it contains no information.
The information encoded within the sound is irrelevant to the method of encoding the sound, provided that the encoding does not degrade the sound beyond intelligibility.
quote:


I am somewhat suspicious of your audio source(s) if the "proper" pronunciation of Dia dhuit that was given made you arrive at Q+D /diyû gwit/ with a /g/.

If the speaker was a true native then the pronunciation should be /d'i:ə γit'/ with a voiced velar fricative /γ/ (some might even say it is closer to a uvular fricative) not a voiced uvular plosive. According to your chart above, that is Q+D /q/, not /g/ (Q+D /g/). Thus in your own system that would be (ignoring the "d" and "t" for now) /diyû qwit/ rather than /diyû gwit/.

If the source you used definitely said /diyû gwit/ with a /g/, then it is probably anglicised Neo-Irish, not native Irish.


What you say is indeed theoretically true, but do you pronounce spaghetti as /spaqetí/? The difference is slight, and in a noisey channel, the slight leakage of the stop might be imperceptible.
What we see here is an error in the data, but it is an error which language redundancy masks.
Q+D deliberately makes use of this redundancy. That too is part of the 'Dirty'.
This is one reason I use 'q' for the leaky 'g'.
Likewise, I do not use a separate codon for English 'th', for since broad 't', and 'd' can leak with many speakers, and the difference has in Irish no significance.
quote:


quote:

The English 'j' sound is 'dj' not 'dy'. In 'dy', the 'd' is fully pronounced as a stop, having no sibilance.



Some confusion may have arisen as I was unsure of the exact sound value you place on /j/ in Q+D. In phonetics, /j/ represents what in English would be a "y" sound. What sound value does it assume in your system? Is it more like the French "j" /ʒ/?


The sound encoded by both symbols is identical.
What I am doing is a frig.
A dirty trick.
A bit like the 'h' following an Irish 't'.
There is no phonological way that you can turn a 't' into an 'h'. The sound should be Greek theta, as in English. That too is a frig.
The 'j' symbol is used to indicate that the preceding stop will leak slightly into the glide, or the sibilant will alter slightly into the glide.
Do you say /syón/ or /sjón/ for Seán? IPA suggests the latter, but theoretically the former is correct.
I can pronounce the difference, but would you hear the difference, more important, is the difference linguistically significant?
Yes, these questions are important.
But it is important too to understand that this is not grammatical encoding. There is a presumption that hearing perception can use the redundancy built into language to correct minor errors introduced by the coding method.
Mp3 music still sounds pretty good. Some purists claim they can tell the difference between mp3 and AIFF, but I can't.
The real question will remain: how badly can we encode the sound before the degradation affects intelligibility?
Yes, this discussion is very useful to the design of the system.
Go raibh maith agat.
Slán
Dave.

Mar sin is dá bhrí sin, níl beart níos críonna
Ná bheith go síoraí ag cur preab san ól.

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Abigail
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Username: Abigail

Post Number: 1142
Registered: 06-2006


Posted on Tuesday, September 15, 2009 - 04:14 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

The real question will remain: how badly can we encode the sound before the degradation affects intelligibility?


That's the real question, is it?

Tá fáilte roimh chuile cheartú!

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Seánw
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Username: Seánw

Post Number: 96
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Tuesday, September 15, 2009 - 04:19 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I respect your efforts, but also they are quick and dirty, so how will your result be?

quote:

What you say is indeed theoretically true, but do you pronounce spaghetti as /spaqetí/?



English no, Italian no, but in Irish the g and gh difference matters for word difference and grammar.

quote:

There is no phonological way that you can turn a 't' into an 'h'. The sound should be Greek theta, as in English. That too is a frig.



While we may think of a sound "turning" into another, initial mutations are not gradual changes but complete replacements. In this case t to h sound. A stop becomes a fricative. The mutation is not always in the same area of the mouth, but the two sounds in these contexts are grammatically related.

quote:

Yes, I understand exactly what you are saying, but Q+D is a transcription of what is heard, not an interpretation of the meaning, which is what the orthography is.



I think those orthographies that aim to represent speech are shooting at moving targets. Sure the targets move slowly, but you have not only variation among individuals, but also time. Most alphabets of the type like Irish then have a greater or lesser degree of representation of the sounds while delivering grammatical information. Q+D is also an orthography, just one that aims at purely phonological representation. At the end of the day, they are symbols representating sounds and grammatical information.

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Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg
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Username: Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg

Post Number: 747
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Tuesday, September 15, 2009 - 04:23 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Do you say /syón/ or /sjón/ for Seán?


Um, neither? Seán is ['ʃɑ:nˠ]. The "Q+D" transcription you give doesn't come close to indicating this clearly.

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Breandán
Member
Username: Breandán

Post Number: 321
Registered: 12-2008


Posted on Tuesday, September 15, 2009 - 05:26 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Dave,

quote:

The information encoded within the sound is irrelevant to the method of encoding the sound, provided that the encoding does not degrade the sound beyond intelligibility.



The problem is that your system is doing exactly that: degrading the sound beyond intelligibility.

quote:

do you pronounce spaghetti as /spaqetí/?



No, but the Irish broad "gh" and "dh" are nothing like the "gh" in "spaghetti". They are like the German uvular "r" (but not the trilled operatic one). Another way to explain the sound is that is it like the French "r" but further back in the throat (at the same position as the "g" sound).

It is not a "leaky g" at all; it is a very distinct fricative sound as distinct as "t" is from "th" or "s" is from "sh" in English.

quote:

Do you say /syón/ or /sjón/ for Seán? IPA suggests the latter, but theoretically the former is correct.
I can pronounce the difference, but would you hear the difference, more important, is the difference linguistically significant?
Yes, these questions are important.



Q+D /syán/ [sjɑ:n] is only "theoretically" correct in Latin. It is incorrect for Irish. It is as irrelevant to Irish as if one were to say that [assʊmɛ] is the "theoretically" correct pronunciation of "assume" in English, instead of the actual accepted variants [ə'sju:m], [ə'su:m], and [ə'∫u:m].

In Irish [∫] (Q+D /sj/) is the only correct option for the "s" in "Seán". [sj] (Q+D /sy/) is incorrect.

quote:

A bit like the 'h' following an Irish 't'.
There is no phonological way that you can turn a 't' into an 'h'. The sound should be Greek theta, as in English.



Should it? English and Greek logic don't apply to Irish. Every language has its own logic. Check your coat in and leave your linguistic baggage at the door. The Japanese progression is h -> b -> p. The Irish progression t -> th -> h makes perfect sense in historical context. There is no way that "gh" in "cough" can logically be pronounced "f" but it is. At least the Irish progression is consistent throughout the system.

In any case, that is not the question we are addressing. The important matter is maintaining the essential distinction between broad and slender consonants.

Your system has the potential to approach mp3 quality and be useful, but in its present state it has that muffled quality of a cassette tape played on a player with a dirty head played from the room next door. A native speaker might understand you at a stretch but it would be a strain. It is the equivalent of someone speaking Franglais with a British accent and thinking they can speak real French. Unless you fine tune your system, that is the only extent of quality you will ever achieve.

Yet all the elements are there ready to improve the system if applied correctly. All that is lacking is your own level of awareness of the importance of the sound distinctions. In order to go to the next step to make your system truly useful, you will have to forget English, Latin and Greek for a moment, and learn to open up your ears - and your mind.

Brendan

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Daveat168
Member
Username: Daveat168

Post Number: 15
Registered: 08-2009


Posted on Tuesday, September 15, 2009 - 05:51 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Dia dhuit a charda,
quote:


I think those orthographies that aim to represent speech are shooting at moving targets. Sure the targets move slowly, but you have not only variation among individuals, but also time. Most alphabets of the type like Irish then have a greater or lesser degree of representation of the sounds while delivering grammatical information. Q+D is also an orthography, just one that aims at purely phonological representation. At the end of the day, they are symbols representing sounds and grammatical information.


Actually, you do me a compliment here, for you recognize the ability of Q+D to meaningfully embody punctuation, which no other phonetic system can.
This in fact was one of the basic aims of Q+D.
The ability to be used in place of plain text, as plain text.
But other than that, Q+D does not embody grammar. Q+D embodies the sounds which may, or may not embody grammar.
quote:

The real question will remain: how badly can we encode the sound before the degradation affects intelligibility?


That's the real question, is it?


Consider listening to a conversation in a noisy room, or over a crackly phone line.
It is amazing how bad the interference can be before the message becomes unintelligible.
Supposing I failed to correctly lenite the occasional 'c' or 'g'. You might consider that my pronunciation was faulty, or lazy, but I doubt that the errors in my speech would completely confuse the message.
So I might sound a bit like Maurice Chevalier trying to speak correct English, but it is amazing how quickly the ear adapts to the errors, and the listener unconsciously corrects the errors, eventually, only being aware of the accent being strange.

quote:

Do you say /syón/ or /sjón/ for Seán?


Um, neither? Seán is ['ʃɑ:nˠ]. The "Q+D" transcription you give doesn't come close to indicating this clearly.



I was trying to indicate the difference between /sy/ and /sj/. I thought that was clear from the context.
Irish common usage more closely resembles the /sj/ form, whereas the correct orthography would suggest that the /sy/ form is more accurate.
We have in English, a word, and its derivatives which in correct pronunciation embody the /sy/ form.
How do you pronounce 'mission'?

Go raibh maith agat.
Slán.
Dave.

Mar sin is dá bhrí sin, níl beart níos críonna
Ná bheith go síoraí ag cur preab san ól.

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Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg
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Username: Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg

Post Number: 748
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Tuesday, September 15, 2009 - 06:03 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

How do you pronounce 'mission'?


['mɩʃn̩]. The sound which you (for no adequately explained reason) variously transcribe as /sy/ or /sj/ is pronounced exactly the same in both languages.

I get that you're trying to make some kind of point about pronunciation here but I haven't a clue what it is.

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Seánw
Member
Username: Seánw

Post Number: 97
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Tuesday, September 15, 2009 - 06:13 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

It is not a "leaky g" at all; it is a very distinct fricative sound as distinct as "t" is from "th" or "s" is from "sh" in English.



A Bhreandán,
I wouldn't say it is very distinct. I mean, it does have the same place of articulation, and some grammarians did call lenition aspiration because it was "leaking" air compared to the full stop. But I do think leaky is an intertesting adjective. I won't tell you what comes to my mind.

(Message edited by seánw on September 15, 2009)

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Daveat168
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Username: Daveat168

Post Number: 16
Registered: 08-2009


Posted on Tuesday, September 15, 2009 - 06:17 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

/Diyû qwit û Vrendan,
Ay intendid tú sjow dût sum sawndz in Ayrisj wûr dû rizult ov líci stops./
Consider the Irish broad 't'. It is pronounced unlike the English, with, as I understand, the tip of the tongue touching the tips of the upper teeth.
In English, the tongue touches the roof of the mouth, just behind the teeth.
If the Irish speaker has slightly gappy teeth, then the stop leaks, and a sound results which comes close to an unvoiced theta.
So, the English 'th' can logically be considered to be a leaky 't'.
A similar position holds for broad 'd'.
Using this logic, it is reasonable to see 'x' as a leaky 'c', and by development, thus, a 'q' as a leaky 'g'
Is you pronounce 'gá', and then repeat the sound, but allow the stop to leak, the result is sound which I would recognize as 'qá'.
Go raibh maith agat.
Slán.
Dave

Mar sin is dá bhrí sin, níl beart níos críonna
Ná bheith go síoraí ag cur preab san ól.

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Daveat168
Member
Username: Daveat168

Post Number: 17
Registered: 08-2009


Posted on Tuesday, September 15, 2009 - 06:29 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Dia dhuit a Dhomhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg


quote:

quote:

How do you pronounce 'mission'?


['mɩʃn̩]. The sound which you (for no adequately explained reason) variously transcribe as /sy/ or /sj/ is pronounced exactly the same in both languages.

I get that you're trying to make some kind of point about pronunciation here but I haven't a clue what it is.



Yes, I checked my dictionary, and it too gave the modern degraded pronunciation.
Not too long ago, the word was pronounced as //miss// //yun// joined together, without a gap, but both syllables were pronounced fully.

Go raibh maith agat.
Slán.
Dave.

Mar sin is dá bhrí sin, níl beart níos críonna
Ná bheith go síoraí ag cur preab san ól.

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Seánw
Member
Username: Seánw

Post Number: 98
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Tuesday, September 15, 2009 - 06:40 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

[Irish t] is pronounced unlike the English, with, as I understand, the tip of the tongue touching the tips of the upper teeth.



There is a distinction here whether the consonant is broad or slender. One is closer to English while the other is near the tip of the teeth.

quote:

If the Irish speaker has slightly gappy teeth, then the stop leaks, and a sound results which comes close to an unvoiced theta.



I'm sorry, but I can't get enough of your adjectives -- gappy, leaky.

Sure this may happen, but most Irish that I speak with do the opposite and turn the English th's into stops precisely because they don't have the sound.

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Daveat168
Member
Username: Daveat168

Post Number: 18
Registered: 08-2009


Posted on Tuesday, September 15, 2009 - 06:49 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Dia dhuit a Bhreandán,
quote:


Should it? English and Greek logic don't apply to Irish. Every language has its own logic. Check your coat in and leave your linguistic baggage at the door. The Japanese progression is h -> b -> p. The Irish progression t -> th -> h makes perfect sense in historical context. There is no way that "gh" in "cough" can logically be pronounced "f" but it is. At least the Irish progression is consistent throughout the system.


As I recall, the progression of h in Japanese is:
ha, hi, fu, he, ho.
Thus the h phoneme is in Japanese homophonic with f.
The progression p - f, and b - v is quite logical in both Japanese and Irish.
As for cough. Yes, this is a modern changed pronunciation.
You can tell this by looking at a hypothetical word, which I offer you:
'Staugh'
Think of the many ways you might pronounce this hypothetical word:
1/ stack,
2/ store,
3/ stuff,
4/ stow,
5/ stock.
You might find more, but I would be surprised if the core meaning of any words you find did not match the core meaning of the words already given.

As for cough, I can imagine an archaic pronunciation to be something like /cox/.

Go raibh maith agat.
slán.
Dave.

(Message edited by daveat168 on September 15, 2009)

(Message edited by daveat168 on September 15, 2009)

Mar sin is dá bhrí sin, níl beart níos críonna
Ná bheith go síoraí ag cur preab san ól.

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Daveat168
Member
Username: Daveat168

Post Number: 19
Registered: 08-2009


Posted on Tuesday, September 15, 2009 - 07:35 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A chairde,
dia dhuit,
Indeed, my knowledge of Irish, and my knowledge of phonetics is grossly inferior to many here.
However, I believe we have here the seeds of a system which with some tuning, has the potential of becoming a useful teaching aid, or a vehicle for non Irish words, or Irish words which an enquirer might want to describe.
I think any further efforts I might make will only make the water more muddy.
I think a phonetic text with the orthographic text might make Pimsleur a more useful package.
The greates advantage that Pimsleur has over any other system is that it defers the orthography to a time when it can be tackled without fear.
I have to admit that when I look at the orthography, I still have difficulty in correlating it with the perceived sounds.
A system like Q+D which resembles plain text, and is not littered with diacritical marks, would, I believe, make a good parallel introduction to the orthography.

In the end, I must defer to greater knowledge and understanding in the hope hat the seeds I have sown will develop in the hands of better husbanders.

Now to get back to the song.......

Go raibh maith agat.
Slán.
Dave.

(Message edited by daveat168 on September 15, 2009)

Mar sin is dá bhrí sin, níl beart níos críonna
Ná bheith go síoraí ag cur preab san ól.

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Seánw
Member
Username: Seánw

Post Number: 99
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Tuesday, September 15, 2009 - 08:28 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

A system like Q+D which resembles plain text, and is not littered with diacritical marks, would, I believe, make a good parallel introduction to the orthography.



Sure, from an English alphabet perspective littered is the way it seems. But why have a line through our t? Why have a dot on our i? Why have a q at all? Some of the wisdom of the system is lost in time. Some is not wisdom at all but tradition. I would regard the long marks over Irish vowels as a dot on an i. The mark has more significance, but it doesn't bother us to have that little bit more. The trade off is you don't have to deal with other letters like k, q, w, etc.

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Daveat168
Member
Username: Daveat168

Post Number: 20
Registered: 08-2009


Posted on Wednesday, September 16, 2009 - 05:06 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Sheánw, dia dhuit,
quote:

Sure, from an English alphabet perspective littered is the way it seems. But why have a line through our t? Why have a dot on our i? Why have a q at all? Some of the wisdom of the system is lost in time. Some is not wisdom at all but tradition. I would regard the long marks over Irish vowels as a dot on an i. The mark has more significance, but it doesn't bother us to have that little bit more. The trade off is you don't have to deal with other letters like k, q, w, etc.


Fadas do not bother me. what I was primarily concerned with was diacritical marks which were implimented using marks normally used for punctuation.
That is why I have not reintroduced the /sjévi/.
In English, k, and q are different, 'q' being further back, but that is old history.
I reintroduced 'q' as a replacement of 'gh' as I had decided to replace all '*h' consonant combinations with their own individual symbol if possible. 'Q', though not a good replacement in phonological terms, at least came from the right family, and in print, resembled a 'g'.
Reconsidering your trade-off statement, I have a complexity value for any coding system, and it is basically, the number of codons in the set multiplied by the number of codons from that set, required to encode the message.
I considered the cost of littering the text with a multitude of 'h's to result in a higher complexity that to add a few codons to the set.
Incidentally, in number theory, the best numerical base, which is also an integer, is three. The best non-integer base, being e = 2.718....... .

Go raith maith agat.
Slán.
Dave.

Mar sin is dá bhrí sin, níl beart níos críonna
Ná bheith go síoraí ag cur preab san ól.

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Breandán
Member
Username: Breandán

Post Number: 322
Registered: 12-2008


Posted on Wednesday, September 16, 2009 - 05:44 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Ní bheadh sé in ábhar bheith _____ go leor [can't make sense of this bit]



Abigail, I am not sure either but it sounds like it might be meant to be in ábhar machnaimh go leor but the singer has lenited the "m" in machnaimh. Could it be ina ábhar mhachnaimh go leor, perhaps?



(Message edited by breandán on September 16, 2009)

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Breandán
Member
Username: Breandán

Post Number: 323
Registered: 12-2008


Posted on Wednesday, September 16, 2009 - 08:31 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

The main problem with the song is that we have what appears to be a non-native speaker fudging his way along. Here is the Q+D of how I think it should have been pronounced based on the words Abigail has so kindly taken the time to dictate from what she heard on the Youtube video:

Is iomaí caoi a bhíos ag daoine
/simuí cuí avíseg duíni/
Ag cruinniú pinghiní is ag déanamh stóir,
/û cruiniú píní sû djénú stórj/
Is a laghad a chuimhníos gur ghearr an tsaol seo,
/sa laid a xuivrjís gur yára tuél sjo/
Is go mbeidh siad sínte fén leic go fóill.
/sgo mei sjíd síntji fuín lecj go fólj/
Más tiarna tíre, diúc nó rí thú,
/más tjírna tjírji, djúc nó rí hú/
Ní rachaidh pinghin leat fén bhfód:
/ní raxuí pínj ljat fuín wód/
Mar sin, dá bhrí sin, níl beart níos críonna
/mar sjin dá vrjí sjin níl byart nís cjrjína/
Ná bheith go síoraí ag cur preab san ól.
/ná vei go sjíruí û cur pjrjab sa nól/

Is iomaí dlí bhíos ag an lilí sciamhach
/simuí djlí vísega lilí sjcíwax/
Cé gur buí agus gur geal a choróin,
/cé gur buí gus gur gyal a xrónj/
Solomon críonna ina chulaith rioghúil
/Solomon cjrjína na cúluí ríúlj/
Ní bheadh sé ina ábhar mhacnaimh go leor
/ní vyat sjé ináwar wacnuiv go lyór/
Ó níl sa tsaol seo ach mar soinneán gaoithe,
/ó níl sa tuél sjo ax mar suenyán guí(hi)/
An slám nár scaoileadh nó slám den cheo:
/ûn slám nár scuílyú nó slám gûn xyó/
Mar sin, dá bhrí sin, níl beart níos críonna
/mar sjin dá vrjí sjin níl byart nís cjrjína/
Ná bheith go síoraí ag cur preab san ól.
/ná vei go sjíruí û cur pjrjab sa nól/

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Seánw
Member
Username: Seánw

Post Number: 101
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Wednesday, September 16, 2009 - 04:35 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

I considered the cost of littering the text with a multitude of 'h's to result in a higher complexity that to add a few codons to the set.



A Dave,
It would be interesting to know if a text set in your system would actually be fewer characters than a text set in the standard orthography. You take the set of standard ten symbols (bcdfgmpst & h) and add on five more to make your set 15 symbols (the ones before plus xqyvw). If your system attempted to thoroughly represent slender and broad consonants then I think your system would actually be more complex to my mind. But I guess that is the question. Why does Irish have a lot of vowels and Hs? Why does IPA transcription of Irish have all those markings for broad and slender? These distinctions are not all that common, and foreign to English. Once the system is learned, though, it is quite easy. (There is a certain break-through point when you say, "oh".) The H is all over Irish texts, but in most cases she is a symbol of sound change or potential sound change (lenition or etymology as in cases like a silent th which is pronounced in the genitive case).

Interestingly it sounds now that you are also critical of the Irish spelling system and your system is posed as a sort of reform. Here you said "This is definitely not an attempt by an outsider to tell the Irish how to spell" and "This is not a criticism of the Irish system of writing." Similar statements were made at the Irish Gaelic Translator site. But now Irish texts are "littered" with Hs. I don't understand what you pose your system as. Private study aid? Irish IPA? Replacement of the Foclóir Poca/Learning Irish system? To be quite honest, your system simply replaced some symbols with others, neglected the slender/broad distinction a bit, and narrowed it to the symbols on an average English keyboard.

If spelling systems were based on efficiency or mathematical formulae, we might just have to scrap the whole thing!

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Daveat168
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Username: Daveat168

Post Number: 21
Registered: 08-2009


Posted on Wednesday, September 16, 2009 - 07:29 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Sheánw,
dia dhuit,
Just look at what Breandán has written above.
You can see how, in every line, the Q+D representation is more compact than the orthography.
The one line where this seems not to be the case, it is only the Q+D introduction marks which cause this.
Now the orthography uses implicit definition of broad and slender, then jumps through hoops to keep the implication valid.
Yes, the choice of words might seem insulting, it is not. It is just a description of how I see it.
My claim is simply this, if the orthography can use implied definition of broad and slender, why must I use explicit definition?
That would be unnecessary redundancy.
quote:

I don't understand what you pose your system as. Private study aid? Irish IPA? Replacement of the Foclóir Poca/Learning Irish system? To be quite honest, your system simply replaced some symbols with others, neglected the slender/broad distinction a bit, and narrowed it to the symbols on an average English keyboard.


Actually, all of the above, to some extent.
Purists though, and I understand their position, feel the need for their overkill.
Language is already littered with redundancy because the spoken word is nearly always used in an imperfect environment, where interference and jamming is rife.
In the written environment, provided that the type-script is not degraded, there is no degradation, other than that built into the encoding. So, provided that the encoding inaccuracy is no worse than a noisy mill floor, then it is good enough.
...replaces some symbols...
Yes. but look at how it works.
Not all of the consonants can be lenited, and at least three of the lenitions are coincident. So the system of 'h'. or /sjevi/ is grossly inefficient. again, not a criticism, just a fact. It is only necessary to add 5 characters to the set to get rid of the artificial 'h', and so to keep the 'h' for where it is needed.
... neglected the slender/broad...
Absolutely not.
Q+D defines broad and slender rigorously. it even uses the IPA symbols, disguised as normal characters, 'j' & 'w' where an exception occurs, rather than a complex set of unpronounced vowels to achieve the same end.
Efficiency is important. A large set of codons can present a large learning burden. Chinese has over 50,000 codons. Alternatively, excessive reduction in the number of codons in the system will result in decapacitating the traffic capability of the system. Oggam can encode little more than personal names.
Mathematical efficiency is important.
Go raibh maith agat.
Slán.
Dave.

Mar sin is dá bhrí sin, níl beart níos críonna
Ná bheith go síoraí ag cur preab san ól.

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Daveat168
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Username: Daveat168

Post Number: 22
Registered: 08-2009


Posted on Wednesday, September 16, 2009 - 07:48 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Bhreandán,
dia dhuit, go raibh maith agat!
Fantastic effort!
Does it all actually make good sense in Irish.
Should the incorrect lenition be undone?

I did notice some cases of two vowels together. However, I have ceded development authority of Q+D to whomsoever who might be better prepared to develop it.
I also saw strange uses of 'j', which might need explanation.
I notice that our friend Seánw does not completely understand the method of broad/slender definition.

The real job of precise definition of the system must come next.

This then a Bhreandán, I think, means you!

Good luck!
Go raibh maith agat.
Slán.
Dave.

Mar sin is dá bhrí sin, níl beart níos críonna
Ná bheith go síoraí ag cur preab san ól.

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Seánw
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Username: Seánw

Post Number: 103
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Wednesday, September 16, 2009 - 08:40 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Dave,
I understand your system, and Breandán tweaked it a bit to better represent the broads and slenders, and thus had to add characters to the transcription (you noted the extra Js). Keep in mind also that you are not delivering some of the "visual" information of the Irish orthography, namely grammatical changes indicated by letter changes. Also, but less important, there is etymological relation indicated by spelling as well. The point I am reiterating is that it is what you say, quick and dirty. Personally I prefer slow and clean.

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Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg
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Username: Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg

Post Number: 750
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Wednesday, September 16, 2009 - 09:41 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

It's definitely dirtier but I've yet to be shown that it's any quicker. Whether you learn true Irish orthography, Q+D, or one of the IPA-based representations preferred by Ó Siadhail et al., you need to invest time and effort into associating familiar letters with new values. The difference is that Irish orthography and IPA both offer some portability of investment. Q+D, on the other hand, is as limited in its applicability as Pitman's Initial Teaching Alphabet.

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Breandán
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Username: Breandán

Post Number: 324
Registered: 12-2008


Posted on Thursday, September 17, 2009 - 03:11 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Here's a second attempt at the first verse with a transcript based on Ó Siadhail for comparison/reference:

Is iomaí caoi a bhíos ag daoine
/simuí cuí ûvísegj duíni/
/simi: ki: ə w'i:s eg' di:n'ə/

Ag cruinniú pinghiní is ag déanamh stóir,
/û cruiniú píNí sû djíNû stórj/
/ə kriN'u: p'i:N'i: sə d'i:Nə sto:r'/

Is a laghad a chuimhníos gur ghearr an tsaol seo,
/sû Laid û xuívrjís gur yára tuíL sjo/
/sə Laid ə xi:w'r'i:s gur γ'ɑ:r ə ti:L s'o/

Is go mbeidh siad sínte fén leic go fóill.
/sgû mei sjíd síNtji fuíN lecj gû fólj/
/sgə m'ei s'i:əd s'i:Nt'ə fi:N L'ek' gə fo:L'/

Más tiarNa tíre, diúc nó rí thú,
/más tjíûrNa tjírji, djúc Nú rí hú/
/mɑ:s t'i:ərNə t'i:r'ə, d'u:k Nu: ri: hu:/

Ní rachaidh pinghin leat fén bhfód:
/ní raxuí píNj ljat fuíN wód/
/N'i: raxi: p'i:N' l'æ:t fi:N wo:d/

Mar sin, dá bhrí sin, níl beart níos críonna
/mar sjin dá vrjí sjin Níl byart Nís cjrjíNa/
/mar s'in' dɑ: w'r'i: s'in' N'i:l' b'æ:rt N'i:s k'r'i:əNə/

Ná bheith go síoraí ag cur preab san ól.
/Ná vei gû sjíûruí û cur pjrjab sû NóL/
/Nɑ: w'ei gə s'i:əri: ə kur p'r'ab sə No:L/


A Sheáinw, cross-checking this was definitely slow and painful. Can't guarantee clean just yet but I am working on it. I guess that is the point with transcriptions, they are hard to write but can benefit the reader more, particularly the learner, if done properly.

As you mention, I also appreciate the way that Irish orthography manages to retain the root word visually - you merely have to ignore the letters added for lenition/séimhiú or eclipsis/urú. I get lost learning Welsh because it is not always clear whether a word is in its original form or has been mutated. I guess that is the trade-off with more phonetic orthography.

A Dhomhnaillín, I like IPA-based representations myself in tandem with the orthography for their ability to elucidate digressions from the pronunciation one would normally expect from the spelling/orthography, especially in the various dialects.

One thing I think beginners do find confusing, though, is that buí is represented by /bi:/ and by /b'i:/, albeit for conciseness (a case of introducing confusion for the sake of reducing some ink usage?). Full IPA on the other hand can be overly cluttered with glides (and there seems to be a variety of usages for the same glide γ, ɰ, etc.).

IMO, the really essential glides are the ones from a broad consonant to a slender vowel and vice versa, the distinctions for r and s, and in the middle of slender consonant clusters where the default in most other languages is the broad form.

Whichever system is employed, be it orthography, full IPA, reduced IPA or Q+D, you are always dealing with approximations and trade-offs. Each can be used to supplement the failings of the others. Q+D might end up just being another redundant tool or it could just be the one needed to fill a slight gap.


Back to the transcription above, I found that the distinction of n's and l's could easily be represented by upper case in the same way as Ó Siadhail does it (Foclóir Póca ignores the distinction completely). Since this is transcription and not "spelling", there is no reason to reserve upper case for punctuation.

However, I am still not happy that there is no real distinction between /a/, /ɑ/. and /æ/. Any suggestions?

With regard to the extra j's, I have represented preab /p'r'ab/ (or /p'r'æb/?) tentatively as Q+D /pjrjab/ because the slender p /p'/ is closer to /pi/ than /pu/, which would be the default value for non-Irish speakers (well, at least the Japanese and English ones). The slender r /r'/ is also a distinct sound from the broad r. An alternative for "preab" might be /pirjab/.

Dave, one thing about vowels being together is that Irish treats them differently from English. "Seeing" in English might be /siying/ in Q+D (it is in my system F'netik) but there is no "y" in Dia /d'i:ə/ and it would create a very English diphthong if you put one in.

Incidentally, it doesn't always happen in English either. "Here" is ['hiər] in standard pronunciations (minus the "r" in BRP); ['hijər] would be a Southern US accent. (F'netik /hi'r/ for the former; /hiy'r/ for the latter). To distinguish them, Q+D might be better using /hiûr/ and /hiyûr/, for example. The Irish ones are more like the former.

Brendan

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Daveat168
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Username: Daveat168

Post Number: 23
Registered: 08-2009


Posted on Thursday, September 17, 2009 - 05:07 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Bhreandán, Dia dhuit,
Yes, I see your point, but the idea behind 'w' and 'y', 'j' for that matter is that they are not true consonants, but glides. In some cases, they are only indicators of an exception. It was never intended to give them the full pronunciation as found in English or Welsh for that matter.
Think of what would happen if in the Irish orthograpy, you tried to give every letter its full pronunciation!!!
In Latin, there is a similar situation. For instance, Jerusalem, Jerome, and indeed Our Lord's name have an 'h' with the 'i' in the letter combination we have 'J'.
'Hierosolyma', 'Hieronymo', and 'Ihesus'.
This is clearly a voiced 'h', or Arabic 'ain', similar in pronunciation to the initial 'h' found in many French words.
I think, understanding these three as glides, rather than as full vowels or consonantal vowels would correct this problem.
As for the 'y' in 'dia', to my hearing, there is a definite glide which is voiced joining the 'i' sound to the 'û' sound. The 'yû' is very clear.
As for the use of capital letters to convey different sounds, that defeats one of the major controls. It would have been easy to use 'G' in place of 'q', for everyone else does that. Doubling the consonant would be better.
As for broad 'r', in Pimsleur, one of the speakers sometimes trills broad terminal 'r', but very lightly, almost like the English 'th' in 'that'. the word wher it is most clearly heard is 'beoir' , Oh, that is slender!
I had no idea!
As for 'here', I consider /hiyû/ to be normal. Almost rhymes with 'dia' in 'dia dhuit'.
The Welsh say /hyûr/.
Actually, I find the use of 'r' to be quite variable, and I find that I am inclined to either trill it, or ignore it, most commonly just using it as a glide.
Incidentally, the semivowels 'l', and 'r', specially the former seem not to always follow slender with slender, cf.
'Gaelainn'. It seems then reasonable to except all semivowels from that mandate, as indeed we except 'w', 'y', and 'j'.

quote:

Back to the transcription above, I found that the distinction of n's and l's could easily be represented by upper case in the same way as Ó Siadhail does it (Foclóir Póca ignores the distinction completely). Since this is transcription and not "spelling", there is no reason to reserve upper case for punctuation.

...Foclóir Póca ignores the distinction completely... . Perhaps standard dialect considers the difference to be insignificant, as in English whether an 'r' be trilled or not, or even omitted.
I was never intending Q+D to be a fully accurate phonetic system, only to mark relevant the points that define the differences in sense, accepting that this might encode a few minor grammatical errors, which could be corrected using redundancy in the message.
Fully accurate systems already exist.

You noticed an extra lenition in the song, and deduced it to be an error.
Could this instead be not an error, but an accent thing? Some Munster people lightly aspirate broad 'd's and 't's.
Some people write 'dia duit' and still say 'diyû quit'.

I think once you try to make the system too accurate, you might as well bin it, for as I said there is no shortage of accurate systems. The ability, deliberately allowed, to carry normal punctuataion and capitalisation, I think, adds to its readability.

Go raibh maith agat.
Slán.
Dave.

Mar sin is dá bhrí sin, níl beart níos críonna
Ná bheith go síoraí ag cur preab san ól.

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Abigail
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Username: Abigail

Post Number: 1144
Registered: 06-2006


Posted on Thursday, September 17, 2009 - 08:41 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Abigail, I am not sure either but it sounds like it might be meant to be in ábhar machnaimh go leor but the singer has lenited the "m" in machnaimh. Could it be ina ábhar mhachnaimh go leor, perhaps?



Mm, not really convinced; I'm hearing aoi/í in there. (I've been trying to stuff either "aoibh" or "macaoimh" into it but without success.)

Dave, I think the singer has simply muffed or misremembered the pronunciation here. Your best bet is to substitute that line - or couplet, even - with another version.

As for the translation, while I applaud your diligence in keeping the meter, I must say I feel the proposed translation misses the point fairly comprehensively.

The landlords, the greedy buyers and the cow-owning crowd are never addressed directly in the original - they wouldn't likely have been down the pub (and speaking Irish) to hear these admonitions anyway! Nor is drinking proposed as an alternative to keeping livestock and raising rents and serving evictions and all that; if anything, it is regarded as an alternative to paying the rent. Better drink it up tonight than give it to the landlord tomorrow, and so on.

"Mar sin 's dá bhrí sin, níl beart níos fearr dúinn
Ná bheith go síoraí ag cur preab san ól"

"So, since that's the way it is, there's nothing better for us
Than to be constantly drinking with gusto."

That is to say: getting ahead in life is simply impossible for the like of us, so what else to do but complain about their evil ways and keep drinking?

(Like I said though, well done preserving the meter! That's no small thing.)

Tá fáilte roimh chuile cheartú!

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 8826
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Thursday, September 17, 2009 - 09:06 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Seo leagan atá i Filidheacht na nGaedheal (1940)

Is gearr an saoghal a bhíos ag an Lilí sgíomhach
Gidh gur buidhe is gur geal a coróin
Solamh críonna ina culaidh ríoghamail
níl sé i ngaobhar a bheith chomh niamhda leo.

Tagairt don mBíobla
http://bible.cc/matthew/6-29.htm

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 8827
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Thursday, September 17, 2009 - 09:14 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Téacs iomlán anseo
http://www.box.net/shared/lehyynj6rb

Aire! Seanchló! (Agus mór)

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Seánw
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Username: Seánw

Post Number: 107
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Thursday, September 17, 2009 - 11:30 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

As for the 'y' in 'dia', to my hearing, there is a definite glide which is voiced joining the 'i' sound to the 'û' sound. The 'yû' is very clear.



The primary difference in Irish is that the diphthongs don't form new syllables. Dia is one syllable, and the stronger of the two constituents is the first (so it is not a y glide to an short a either). Something like Irish *dídhe would be two syllables.

quote:

Some people write 'dia duit' and still say 'diyû quit'.



I think most people lenite the second d, but the standard for that preposition is plain d.

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Daveat168
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Username: Daveat168

Post Number: 24
Registered: 08-2009


Posted on Thursday, September 17, 2009 - 02:28 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Dia duit,
from memory here, but with some minor alterations which either make more sense, or follow better the Irish:

Why spend your leasure
_bereft of pleasure,
_amassing treasure?
__Why scrape and save?
Why look so canny
_at ev'ry penny?
_You'll take no money
__within the grave. __Note, this is ablative form. should be accusative: 'into'
Landlords and gentry,
_with all their plenty,
_will all go empty,
__Where e'er they're bound
So to my thinking
_we should be drinking,
_our glasses clinking,
__And round on round.

King Solomon's glory
_so famed in story
_was far outshone by
__the lily's guise
But harsh winds harden __Note, I think 'harsh' better than 'hard'
_both field and garden
_pleading for pardon
__the lily dies.
Life's just a bubble
_of toil and trouble
_the feather'd arrow
__once shot ne'r found
So lads and lasses
_because life passes
_come fill your glasses
__for another round.

The huxter greedy
_he binds the needy. __Note, 'blinds' makes no sense.
_their straits unheeding, __Note 'straits makes better sense than 'strifes'.
__shouts "Money down!"
His special vice is
_his fancy prices.
_For a florin's value
__he'll charge a pound. __Note, original has 'crown' but the Irish is clear that overcharging is tenfold.
And hump for trammel
_the scripture's camel
_missed the needles eye
__and so fell to ground. __Note, better rhyme with pound than crown.
Why pine for riches
_while still you've stitches
_to hold your britches
__up, another round.

As we see, the sense of the moral is allowed to drift into the fourth double couplet.
Also the offending person, not addressed directly, can be seen to be addressed and rebuked in vicares.

This is why in both of my attempt to generate an English verse, I also allowed the moral to replace most of what was the chorus, and to address the offender directly, even though he is not present.
quote:


I hope it was not arrogance, but from Brid's literal translation, and supposed context of Our Lord's similitudes, I hazarded this interpretation of the following Irish Socialist verse:

Tá dream de dhaoine le ba is le caoirigh,
Ag dul chun aonaigh 's ag fáil sochar mór,
Dá gcur chun cíbe agus as sin go mínligh-
Pointí críonna do feictear dhóibh.
Ach déantar fíanaise ar an mí seo
Go mbéid ag caoineadhh is ag sileadh deor:
Mar sin 's dá bhrí sin, níl beart níos críonna
Ná bheith go síoraí ag cur preab san ól.

The livestock farmer,
_with beasts to barter,
_Takes them to market,
__profit to make.
He has but small care,
_for creature wellfare,
_Or suff'ring they'll bear,
__to raise his take.
But watch and wait now,
_a month will show how,
_Who owned just one cow,
__in tears is found.
If you're not caring,
_how fate's preparing,
_you'll not be sharing
__in, another round

Brid did not understand the implication of movement from sedge to fine pasture, and thought the farmer was making a quick profit by fattening up stock bought cheaply from a poor herdsman, on his superior pasture. I was taking the view that actually, the herdsman is using his profit to buy a better farm. See context below.
This verse I believe recalls the tale of the farmer who built new barns for his bumper crop, only to be summoned by the grim reaper.

Suggested adjustments would be most welcome.

I also did this verse from Richard Barratts version

Is olc an tsli bheith ag ardu cíosa,
Ag déanamh daoirse 'gus tacsaí mór'
Ag cur na ndaoine ó rath 's ó dhídean,
Ní faraoir atá cinnte dóibh
An té a níos sin, is dó is baolai,
A bheith in íochtar á bhruith 's á dhó
Mar sin . . .

I found the verse above in a talking blues version.
It is very similar to Richad Barratt's verse, and with it came the following translation:
It's a bad thing o raise rents
Enslaving people with high taxes
Throwing people out of their homes,
a fate that awaits many.
He who does that is in great danger
of ending up in hell, to be burnt or boiled
So...

Thus taking this very literal translation, having checked it out against a dictionary,
Here is my offering:

It is an evil
_like rat or weevil
_to tax poor people
__beyond their means:
to put in danger
_both friend and stranger
_of need of manger
__to raise their wains.
But who should do that,
_on mis'ry grown fat,
_proud, in his tall hat,
__to hell is bound.
Why are you earning
_infernal burning?
_Come, take your turn in
__Another round!

This verse I believe, recalls the calling of Matthew.

Likewise, adjustments would be most welcome.



It is my view that what here is masquarading as a drinking song is actually a set of sermons, and the rejoicing in the bar is presented as a similitude to the Kingdom of Heaven, in accordance with Viking tradition.

The last verse, is I think quite close to the Irish, if we can take the talking blues as a guide.

The livestock farmer though is subject to some doubts.
I think this all depends on how this verse is understood. Perhaps a good literal transltion of this verse, with understood implication migh be a better start point than the incomplete translation I started with.

Go raibh maith agat.
Slán.
Dave.

Mar sin is dá bhrí sin, níl beart níos críonna
Ná bheith go síoraí ag cur preab san ól.

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Daveat168
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Username: Daveat168

Post Number: 25
Registered: 08-2009


Posted on Friday, September 18, 2009 - 06:43 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A chara,
Dia duit!
quote:

Téacs iomlán anseo
http://www.box.net/shared/lehyynj6rb

Aire! Seanchló! (Agus mór)


I looked, and transcribed into ASCII Seanc’ló.

quote:

165. preab san ól
1
Is iomd’a slig’e do b’íos ag daoine
Ag cruinniug’ad’ píg’inne is ag déanam’ stóir,
Is luig’ead a c’uim’nig’ear do réir an tsaog’ail seo,
Go mbeid’ siad sínte faoi lic go fóill.
Más tig’earna tire, Rí nó Duke t’ú,
Ní rac’ard’ píg’inn leat fá'n b’fód,
Mar sin, dá b’rig’ sin, nil beart nios críonna
'Ná b’eit’ go síorruid’e ag cur preab san ól.
2
Tá dream de d’aoinib’ le ba is le caoirib’
'Gá gcur c’un aonaig’, ag fag’áil soc’air m’óir,
'Gá gcur ar cíbe is as sin ar mínleac,
Poinntí críonna do feict’ear d’óib’
Tógaim fiad’naise ar an mbuid’ean so
Go mbeid’ a' caoinead’ is a' silead deór,
Mar sin, dá b’rig’ sin, nil beart nios críonna
'Ná b’eit’ go síorruid’e ag cur preab san ól.
3
An ceannuig’e cinnte níl maoin ná slig’e ar bit’
Ar ór a d’éanam nac’ b’feict’ear d’ó,
An ráta is daoire ar an earrad’ is saoire,
Is ar luac’ na pig’ne go gcuirfead’ coróin;
Do réir c’ainnt C’riosta is níd’ do-d’éanta
Cámall oillteac’ do t’ab’airt tré c’ró,
Mar sin, dá b’rig’ sin, nil beart nios críonna
'Ná b’eit’ go síorruid’e ag cur preab san ól.
4
Ac’t siúd é an Críostaid’e tá lág’ac’ le daoine,
Maxwell dílis tá 'na c’eannp’órt,
Nac’ gcuirfead’ bisiug’ad’ an p’órt dá saot’rug’ad’,
Agus b’ainfead’ a b’ríste do 'Tóny M’ór,
'Sé a p’léisiúr saog’alta de tó is d'oid’c’e,
Cruinniú saoit’eam’ail b’eit’ aige ar bórd,
Punch is fíon a t’ab’airt dóib’ go líonm’ar,
Cóm’rád’ saoit’eam’ail agus preab san ól.
5
An long ar sáile nil cuan ná ceárd
Nác’ gcait’fead’ cáirde ar fuaid an dom’ain m’óir,
Ó ríog’ac’t na Spáinne go Gibráltar,
Is an áit a b’íod’ an Grand Seigniór,
Le lastaí áiseac’' ag líonad’ málaí
Nác’ gconb’óc’ an bár uard’ d’á uair de'n ló,
Mar sin, a c’árde, nil beart nios feárr d’úinn
'Ná b’eit’ mar tá sinn, ag cur preab san ól.
6
Is olc an tslig’e a b’eit’ ag árdú cíosa,
A' déanam’ daoirse, agus tribuute mór,
A' cur na ndaoine ó t’eac’ is ó d’ídean--
Níd’, faraoin! atá cinnte d’óib’,
An té do-g’ní so is dó is baog’luig’e,
A b’eit’ 'g’á íosbairt 'g’á b’ruit’ 's 'g’á d’óg’ad’,
Mar sin, dá b’rig’ sin, nil beart nios críonna
'Ná b’eit’ go síorruid’e ag cur preab san ól.
7
Is meara c’oid’c’e 'ná b’eit’ ag árdug’ad’ cíosa,
Gan an deac’m’ad’ a s’uid’eac’an mar is cóir,
Tab’airt saot’ar Críostaid’e gan b’lát’ gan b’uid’eac’as
Don c’léir nác’ ndéanann aon tsaot’ar dóib’,
Ní hé Críosta d'órdaig’ an dlig’e so,
Ní hé Peadar a m’ínig’ é ná Pól.
Mar sin, dá b’rig’ sin, nil beart nios críonna
'Ná b’eit’ go síorruid’e ag cur preab san ól.
8
Is geárr an saog’al a b’íos ag an lilí sgíom’ac’,
Gid’ gur buid’e is gur geal a c’oróin
Solam’ crínna ina c’ulaid’ ríog’am’ail
Níl sé i ngaob’ar b’eit’ com’ mam’d’a leo,
Nil sa tsaog’al so ac’t mar sionán gaoit’e.
An gat’ 'g’á sgaoilead’ nó slam den gceó,
Mar sin, dá b’rig’ sin, nil beart nios críonna
'Ná b’eit’ go síorruid’e ag cur preab san ól.

Riocard Bairéad.



Then I listened again to Ciaran.
Clearly he is trying to sing the verses #1, and #8 here.
on verse 8, the letter grouping "d’a leo" does sound like ga leor, does it not?
I notice in verse 1, he swaps dukes and kings, I think that sounds better, don't you?
In verse 8, I think he is trying to sing it as is, but just makes a bog of it.

I also noted that this makes clear the commonly copied error in the common verse 2, where:
"Go mbeid’ siad sínte faoi lic go fóill."
is placed where:
"Go mbeid’ a' caoinead’ is a' silead deór,"
should be.

I do note that many of the Gealic purists would be horrified to find even in seanc’ló script, the English letters 'w', 'x', and 'y', though I did not find a 'v'!

So, I think, leave Ciaran's alterations to verse 1, but use verse 8 as is.
Also use verse 3 for the huxter gready, and forget the rest.
That leave 3 English verses, and 3 corresponding Irish to get well learned before the 1st March!

Go raibh maith agat.
Slán.
Dave

Mar sin is dá bhrí sin, níl beart níos críonna
Ná bheith go síoraí ag cur preab san ól.

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Daveat168
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Username: Daveat168

Post Number: 26
Registered: 08-2009


Posted on Friday, September 18, 2009 - 07:28 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Bhreandán,
dia duit.
quote:


However, I am still not happy that there is no real distinction between /a/, /ɑ/. and /æ/. Any suggestions?


I did think about other 'a's, and thought of using 'ã' for the 'a' in 'man' 'fan'.
both of these share the same hard pronunciation in my ears, as the form commonly represented by 'æ'. I thought this reasonable as the hard 'a' is commonly found close to a nasal.
Nasal 'a' is found in IPA, but I am unsure how that sounds.
Grave accent, and hat are also available.
Slán,
Dave.

Mar sin is dá bhrí sin, níl beart níos críonna
Ná bheith go síoraí ag cur preab san ól.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 8832
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Saturday, September 19, 2009 - 05:41 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

I do note that many of the Gealic purists would be horrified to find even in seanc’ló script, the English letters 'w', 'x', and 'y', though I did not find a 'v'!



Only those who are not familiar with it. English words are not transcribed, and often there are names - Maxwell in this case - which are left untouched in songs.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 8833
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Saturday, September 19, 2009 - 06:37 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A small transcription error:
Níl sé i ngaob’ar b’eit’ com’ niam’d’a leo,

niamh [ainmfhocal baininscneach den dara díochlaonadh]
gile, loinnir, luisne, imir.

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Daveat168
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Username: Daveat168

Post Number: 27
Registered: 08-2009


Posted on Saturday, September 19, 2009 - 01:05 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A hAonghus,
dia duit,
quote:

A small transcription error:
Níl sé i ngaob’ar b’eit’ com’ niam’d’a leo,

niamh [ainmfhocal baininscneach den dara díochlaonadh]
gile, loinnir, luisne, imir.


Go raibh maith agat.
Slán.
Dave.

Mar sin is dá bhrí sin, níl beart níos críonna
Ná bheith go síoraí ag cur preab san ól.

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Daveat168
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Username: Daveat168

Post Number: 28
Registered: 08-2009


Posted on Sunday, September 20, 2009 - 12:02 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A chairde,
a chara,
dia duit.
Try this:
Times Seanċló
a A
á Á
b B
ḃ Ḃ
c C
ċ Ċ
d D
ḋ Ḋ
e E
é É
f F
ḟ Ḟ
g G
ġ Ġ
h H
i I
í Í
j J
k K
l L
m M
ṁ Ṁ
n N
ṅ Ṅ
o O
ó Ó
p P
ṗ Ṗ
ր R
ṙ Ṙ
ſ S
ṡ Ṡ
t T
ṫ Ṫ
u U
ú Ú
v V
w W
x X
y Y
z Z

Now you can cut and paste sjéviús as you like!
Also an archaic 's', and 'r' if to your taste.
Sorry, no archaic 'f'.

Try this for effects:

165. preab san ól
1
Is iomḋa sliġe do ḃíos ag daoine
Ag cruinniuġaḋ píġinne is ag déanaṁ stóir,
Is luiġead a ċuiṁniġear do réir an tsaoġail seo,
Go mbeiḋ siad sínte faoi lic go fóill.
Más tiġearna tire, Rí nó Duke ṫú,
Ní raċarḋ píġinn leat fá'n ḃfód,
Mar sin, dá ḃriġ sin, níl beart níos críonna
'Ná ḃeiṫ go síorruiḋe ag cur preab san ól.
2
Tá dream de ḋaoiniḃ le ba is le caoiriḃ
'Gá gcur ċun aonaiġ, ag faġáil soċair ṁóir,
'Gá gcur ar cíbe is as sin ar mínleac,
Poinntí críonna do feicṫear ḋóiḃ
Tógaim fiaḋnaise ar an mbuiḋean so
Go mbeiḋ a' caoineaḋ is a' silead deór,
Mar sin, dá ḃriġsin, níl beart níos críonna
'Ná ḃeiṫ go síorruiḋe ag cur preab san ól.
3
An ceannuiġe cinnte níl maoin ná sliġe ar biṫ
Ar ór a ḋéanam naċ ḃfeicṫear ḋó,
An ráta is daoire ar an earraḋ is saoire,
Is ar luaċ na piġne go gcuirfeaḋ coróin;
Do réir ċainnt Ċriosta is níḋ do-ḋéanta
Cámall oillteaċ do ṫaḃairt tré ċró,
Mar sin, dá ḃriġ sin, níl beart níos críonna
'Ná ḃeiṫ go síorruiḋe ag cur preab san ól.
4
Aċt siúd é an Críostaiḋe tá láġaċ le daoine,
Maxwell dílis tá 'na ċeannṗórt,
Naċ gcuirfeaḋ bisiuġaḋ an ṗórt dá saoṫruġaḋ,
Agus ḃainfeaḋ a ḃríste do 'Tóny Ṁór,
'Sé a ṗléisiúr saoġalta de tó is d'oiḋċe,
Cruinniú saoiṫeaṁail ḃeiṫ aige ar bórd,
Punch is fíon a ṫaḃairt dóiḃ go líonṁar,
Cóṁráḋ saoiṫeaṁail agus preab san ól.
5
An long ar sáile nil cuan ná ceárd
Náċ gcaiṫfeaḋ cáirde ar fuaid an doṁain ṁóir,
Ó ríoġac’t na Spáinne go Gibráltar,
Is an áit a ḃíoḋ an Grand Seigniór,
Le lastaí áiseaċ' ag líonaḋ málaí
Náċ gconḃóċ an bár uarḋ ḋá uair de'n ló,
Mar sin, a ċárde, níl beart níos feárr ḋúinn
'Ná ḃeiṫ mar tá sinn, ag cur preab san ól.
6
Is olc an tsliġe a ḃeiṫ ag árdú cíosa,
A' déanaṁ daoirse, agus tribute mór,
A' cur na ndaoine ó ṫeaċ is ó ḋídean--
Níḋ, faraoin! atá cinnte ḋóiḃ,
An té do-ġní so is dó is baoġluiġe,
A ḃeiṫ 'ġá íosbairt 'ġá ḃruiṫ 's 'ġá ḋóġaḋ,
Mar sin, dá ḃriġ sin, níl beart níos críonna
'Ná ḃeiṫ go síorruiḋe ag cur preab san ól.
7
Is meara ċoiḋċe 'ná ḃeiṫ ag árduġaḋ cíosa,
Gan an deaċṁaḋ a ṡuiḋeaċan mar is cóir,
Taḃairt saoṫar Críostaiḋe gan ḃláṫ gan ḃuiḋeaċas
Don ċléir náċ ndéanann aon tsaoṫar dóiḃ,
Ní hé Críosta d'órdaiġ an dliġe so,
Ní hé Peadar a ṁíniġ é ná Pól.
Mar sin, dá ḃriġ sin, níl beart níos críonna
'Ná ḃeiṫ go síorruiḋe ag cur preab san ól.
8
Is geárr an saoġal a ḃíos ag an lilí sgíoṁaċ,
Giḋ gur buiḋe is gur geal a ċoróin
Solaṁ crínna ina ċulaiḋ ríoġaṁail
Níl sé i ngaoḃar ḃeiṫ coṁ niaṁḋa leo,
Níl sa tsaoġal so aċt mar sionán gaoiṫe.
An gaṫ 'ġá sgaoileaḋ nó slam den gceó,
Mar sin, dá ḃriġ sin, níl beart níos críonna
'Ná ḃeiṫ go síorruiḋe ag cur preab san ól.

Riocard Bairéad.

Mar sin is dá bhrí sin, níl beart níos críonna
Ná bheith go síoraí ag cur preab san ól.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 8836
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Sunday, September 20, 2009 - 12:36 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

You can get the Gaelchló by using the tag

\ gaelach { }

Mar seo

I see Roman Letters in yours above, although the correct letters are buailte.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 8837
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Sunday, September 20, 2009 - 01:53 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

= you will need one of the following fonts installed on your system: Bunchló, Bunchló Ársa, Bunchló Ársa GC or GaillimhLS.



http://www.daltai.com/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/daltai/discus/discus.pl?pg=formatting#misc

For Bunchló, see http://www.gaelchlo.com

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Daveat168
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Username: Daveat168

Post Number: 29
Registered: 08-2009


Posted on Sunday, September 20, 2009 - 06:21 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A hAonghus,
dia duit.
I saw this:
http://www.folkplanet.com/seanchlo/donncha/cailin-utf8.html
While looking for seanchló fonts.
I had tried installing Seanchló Dubh, but it did not work.
I run an Apple with Intel core 2 duo with OSX 10.5.
The font presents in MS Word correctly, but presents in the text as Helvetica, or similar.
So I removed it.
I looked at:
http://www.gaelchlo.com
But it is all Irish, and I cannot follow the instructions.

For now, I am content with the old spelling in Times font.
True seanchló is too much of a strain to read at the moment with me.
I thought maybe some others might be likewise preferring the old spelling, but in a modern type.

Incidentally, on a mac, these typefaces can be accessed in 'text edit', Edit, special characters, all characters, Latin.
The archaic 's' is cut from the poem.
The archaic 'r' is an Armenian letter.

Slán
Dave.

Mar sin is dá bhrí sin, níl beart níos críonna
Ná bheith go síoraí ag cur preab san ól.

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Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 8838
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Monday, September 21, 2009 - 05:24 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

If you have OS X on the Mac, the Gaelchló types will work.

This link will get you Bunchló Arsa (long R & S included)
http://www.gaelchlo.com/bunargc.zip

This will get Bunchló
http://www.gaelchlo.com/bungc.zip

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Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 8840
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Monday, September 21, 2009 - 05:28 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

By the way, Dave.
The vocative does not prefix a h to Vowels.

A Aonghuis

(or, some would argue)
A Aonghus

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Macdara
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Username: Macdara

Post Number: 43
Registered: 09-2008
Posted on Monday, September 21, 2009 - 05:30 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Daithi a Chara,I got the lyrics of Preab San ól from a book called Ceolta Gael,Sean & Manus O Baoill,Ossian publications.As far as I know Ciaran Bourke spoke Irish in the Munster dialect.Luke sings the same verses - more or less- as Béarla.

Actually,the first verse ' is iomaí slí sin ' etc. was inscribed on a wall outside the Western Star.One of the handsomest pubs in Cork and a big favourite with UCC students:until some tasteless fool demolished it a short while back.

That book ,by the way ,is a real treasure trove.There was a cassette with it.

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Daveat168
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Username: Daveat168

Post Number: 30
Registered: 08-2009


Posted on Monday, September 21, 2009 - 07:05 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Mhacdara,
dia duit.
I looked at the standard-issue modern Irish verses, and found that the match to what Ciaran sang was very poor.

He does not sing 'is iomaí slí sin', but rather it sounds like 'Is summa glee',
and this matches better with the seanchló verses, if we allow that Ciaran pronounces:
'sliġe' from 'Is iomḋa sliġe do ḃíos ag daoine' gutterally, that is a 'ċ' in place of a slender 's'.
I notice though that in line 5 of verse 1, he sings instead of
'Más tiġearna tire, Rí nó Duke ṫú,',
'Más tiġearna tire, Duke nó Rí ṫú,'

As for his second Irish verse, what he sings is very close to
quote:

Is geárr an saoġal a ḃíos ag an lilí sgíoṁaċ,
Giḋ gur buiḋe is gur geal a ċoróin
Solaṁ crínna ina ċulaiḋ ríoġaṁail
Níl sé i ngaoḃar ḃeiṫ coṁ niaṁḋa leo,
Níl sa tsaoġal so aċt mar sionán gaoiṫe.
An gaṫ 'ġá sgaoileaḋ nó slam den gceó,
Mar sin, dá ḃriġ sin, níl beart níos críonna
'Ná ḃeiṫ go síorruiḋe ag cur preab san ól.


but makes a slight bog of the beginnings of lines 1 and 5.

Go raibh maith agat.
Slán.
Dave.

Mar sin is dá bhrí sin, níl beart níos críonna
Ná bheith go síoraí ag cur preab san ól.

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Ingeborg
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Username: Ingeborg

Post Number: 103
Registered: 03-2008


Posted on Monday, September 21, 2009 - 09:59 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

ṙ Ṙ



These do not exist in Irish spelling.

But maybe a dotted n and l would come in handy, to mark for example the difference between Tá Máire leisciúil and Tá Máire leisciúil anseo, i.d. /L'/ versus /l'/.

So the traditional Irish orthography is also for some speakers, hm, ... quick and dirty.

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Daveat168
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Username: Daveat168

Post Number: 31
Registered: 08-2009


Posted on Monday, September 21, 2009 - 11:04 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Ingeborg,
dia duit,
quote:

quote:

ṙ Ṙ



These do not exist in Irish spelling.

But maybe a dotted n and l would come in handy, to mark for example the difference between Tá Máire leisciúil and Tá Máire leisciúil anseo, i.d. /L'/ versus /l'/.

So the traditional Irish orthography is also for some speakers, hm, ... quick and dirty.



I have made the point that I do not want the Irish orthography updating, other than perhaps using a modern font in place of seanchló.
I have already said that I think 1948 etc was a step too far.

Your first point, ṙ Ṙ. Fine. I was uncertain, and better too many than too few.

As for your second point, I do not follow at all.
ṅ Ṅ are I believe both obsolete.
Dotted L never existed. btw, these are archaic Latin deletion marks.
You can have ĺ Ĺ but this is also no part of orthography as I recognize, but who am I?

Q+D was never intended to displace the orthography, but purely for use as friendly phonics.
If it has a place as 'baby-spell', well that is fine by me.
It was designed from the ground up to be fully compatible with classical punctuation, to be usable in place of text, as text.
But NOT to replace the Irish orthography, except perhaps during an early learning stage.

Say for instance I hear a word I do not know, and cannot work out its grammatical parsing from context,
It sounds like slí, but it could equally be slidh, or sligh, maybe even slaoigh.
Yes, the first 3 examples imply a slender s, while the latter, broad, but there are words where there is no obvious difference between broad and slender, and some, or at least one word which has an s in a slender position, but has it pronounced broad.

So Q+D is simple, and basic, and what you hear is what you write, and v.v..

There is a feeling among some that Q+D should not be quite as dirty as it is, and that it should be usable to teach correct pronunciation.
That was not my intent.
The pronunciation must be intelligible, but it might be strange. The occasional word might be unintelligible on its own, but should stand in context.
Have I got you thinking?
Go raibh maith agat.
Slán.
Dave.

Mar sin is dá bhrí sin, níl beart níos críonna
Ná bheith go síoraí ag cur preab san ól.

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Breandán
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Username: Breandán

Post Number: 325
Registered: 12-2008


Posted on Thursday, September 24, 2009 - 07:54 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

I looked at the standard-issue modern Irish verses, and found that the match to what Ciaran sang was very poor.



First, Dave there is no such thing as "standard-issue" in an oral tradition and Macdara is correct, Ceolta Gael is a good book, although it won't always match the lyrics of someone else's particular version (same goes for sheet music when learning tunes.)

quote:

He does not sing 'is iomaí slí sin', but rather it sounds like 'Is summa glee',



I think you will find that Ciaran has lenited the slí so that we he actually says is:

is iomaí shlí a bhíos ag daoine
/simuí xjlí ûvísegj duíni/
/simi: x'l'i: ə w'i:s eg' di:n'ə/

quote:

As for your second point, I do not follow at all.
ṅ Ṅ are I believe both obsolete.
Dotted L never existed. btw, these are archaic Latin deletion marks.
You can have ĺ Ĺ but this is also no part of orthography as I recognize, but who am I?



/L'/ versus /l'/, /N'/ versus /n'/ are not represented in the orthography but they are present in the pronunciation in some dialects. Thus the desire to be able to represent them in Q+D or any other phonology. If you want to represent the sounds, not the spelling, then you have to be able to represent all of the sounds not just some of them.

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Daveat168
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Username: Daveat168

Post Number: 32
Registered: 08-2009


Posted on Friday, September 25, 2009 - 05:01 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Bhrandán,
dia duit,
quote:

Is iomḋa sliġe do ḃíos ag daoine


Is how the first line appears in the pre 1948 version.
If we look at 'The Educational Irish English Pronouncing Dictionary' Munster based with Connemara additions, we find for 'iomḋa', [(i)~um(a)], the letters in brackets, (i), and (a), are actually printed with an inverted caret, which I cannot show, and this is to indicate that these vowels are scarcely pronounced glide vowels. The (i) being a slender to broad glide, for which I intended 'y', and the (a), a broad to slender glide, for which I intended 'w'.
If you actually pronounce the 'w', it is not as in 'way', more as in 'but'. So 'iomḋa' as I understand should sound something like /yumû/, no way anything like /simuí/.
I can accept 'slí' as the modern spelling of 'sliġe'.
Substituting 'a' for 'do'seems a bit strong.
I still hold that the 'standard issue' words are a lousy transliteration of the sleanchó originals, and that the transliterators have made a drunken mess of the job.
quote:

First, Dave there is no such thing as "standard-issue" in an oral tradition and Macdara is correct, Ceolta Gael is a good book, although it won't always match the lyrics of someone else's particular version


Hold it please, If the song is attributed to Riocard Bairéad, then his unadulterated words should be presented.

We do know, and it is admitted by the designers of the official dialect, that the pronunciation of some words was rudely shoehorned into an uncomfortable box to give at least the semblance of a consistent system, even though it flew in the face of RP.

quote:

If you want to represent the sounds, not the spelling, then you have to be able to represent all of the sounds not just some of them.


I think, here we differ.
This is the essence of 'dirty'.
The sound only needs to be sufficiently well represented as to be intelligible in context.
For instance, 'tin', and 'thin', are using the same initial phoneme in Munster Irish, as are 'Dan' and 'than'.
I believe though that in non Munster, the English 'th' is not heard. Hence, there is no separate code for the English 'th' sounds, which are then represented by 't', and 'd'.
I listened carefully to 'r's in Pimsleur, and it seems to me, that the slender 'r' can be lightly trilled, as if a trembling voiced English 'th' sound is present.
Was that the sort of sound you were talking about.

I think we are here talking about finer points of differences.
Q+D is not designed for elocution lessons. There are excellent linguistic tools already in place for that purpose.
It is freely accepted that inaccuracies might but such that individual words might not be sufficiently accurately represented to be intelligible alone.
But that can happen in normal speech, correctly pronounced.
The intent was that, given enough context, it should be possible to deduce the intent of the speaker.
There are far greater errors made by users of orthography.
Words are incorrectly lenited, and unlenited words written, are lenited in speech.
Hence 'dia duit' is almost universally pronounced /dia gwit/.

The Dictionary is quite happy to use 'll' in place of 'L', and so I would also be happy to have 'nn' in place of 'N'. However, if the sound difference is inaudible to some ears, then it will only sound a little strange, or 'foreign', but that was always expected.

Thankyou for your considered thoughts,
Slán.
Dave.

Mar sin is dá bhrí sin, níl beart níos críonna
Ná bheith go síoraí ag cur preab san ól.

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Ingeborg
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Username: Ingeborg

Post Number: 105
Registered: 03-2008


Posted on Friday, September 25, 2009 - 05:27 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

of the sleanchó originals



You mean seanċló, a compound of sean (old) and cló (print, type), so the l has to come later.

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Daveat168
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Username: Daveat168

Post Number: 33
Registered: 08-2009


Posted on Friday, September 25, 2009 - 06:16 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

You mean seanċló, a compound of sean (old) and cló (print, type), so the l has to come later.


Mea culpa.

Mar sin is dá bhrí sin, níl beart níos críonna
Ná bheith go síoraí ag cur preab san ól.

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Seánw
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Username: Seánw

Post Number: 129
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Friday, September 25, 2009 - 06:33 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

We do know, and it is admitted by the designers of the official dialect, that the pronunciation of some words was rudely shoehorned into an uncomfortable box to give at least the semblance of a consistent system, even though it flew in the face of RP. ... I still hold that the 'standard issue' words are a lousy transliteration of the sleanchó originals, and that the transliterators have made a drunken mess of the job.



Dave,
I highly recommend the book “Modern Irish: Grammatical Structure and Dialectal Variation” by Mícheál Ó Siadhail. The book covers quite extensively the relationship between the dialects and the spelling. While it doesn't succeed on every front explaining this relationship, it does show that the revised spelling in many ways properly addresses the complexity at play in the Irish language dialects. There are often multiple layers of interpretation at work. I think it may help you refine your particular system.

I ndiaidh a chéile a thógtar na caisleáin.

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Daveat168
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Username: Daveat168

Post Number: 34
Registered: 08-2009


Posted on Saturday, September 26, 2009 - 06:32 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Sheánw,
dia duit,
Go raibh maith agat!
Now I begin to see what has happened here.
Illogically, some might say, Riocard Bairéad composed his song in Munster dialect, dispite himself being a Northerner.
Then some Northerner, tried to convert the Munster dialect to suit the Erris region where he came from.
It did not work, and STILL does not work.
The syllables only fit the tune in Munster.
There are too many syllables in Erris.
This is a Munster dialect song, and should be kept in Munster dialect.
The fact that Riocard was an Erris man has no bearing on that.
He wrote it in Munster.
In Munster it should stand.
Can you imagine someone trying to sing 'Ilkley Moor' in Cockney?

This also brings to light why the 'simplification' of the Irish orthography is an error, because the old orthography allowed the dialects to drop syllables, as was their wont, without affecting the writing.
If you then omit from the writing, the dropped syllables, then the writing no longer supports the dialects.

You are left with the artificial 'sic scriptum' dialect, and the orthography, with the old dialects hung out to dry.

That would be a worse result than anything O' Cuív proposed.

My vote is to keep the sjéví, lose all those 'h's, and keep the pre-1948 spelling.
Seanċló is an option, but I would be happy with Times, as the former is perhaps an affectation, and looks pretty, but Times is far more readable. Yes, we want an un-dotted 'i' for correctness.
I'll see what frig I can come up with.
Go raibh maith agat.
Slán.
Dave.

Mar sin is dá bhrí sin, níl beart níos críonna
Ná bheith go síoraí ag cur preab san ól.

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Daveat168
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Username: Daveat168

Post Number: 35
Registered: 08-2009


Posted on Saturday, September 26, 2009 - 06:50 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A ċara,
dıa duıt,
Here are the frigs:

Times Seanċló exceptions
á Á ḃ Ḃ ċ Ċ ḋ Ḋ
é É ḟ Ḟ ġ Ġ ı I
í Í j J ṁ Ṁ ó Ó
ṗ Ṗ ṡ Ṡ ṫ Ṫ ú Ú

Mar sin is dá bhrí sin, níl beart níos críonna
Ná bheith go síoraí ag cur preab san ól.

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Smac_muirí
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Username: Smac_muirí

Post Number: 387
Registered: 06-2008
Posted on Saturday, September 26, 2009 - 07:37 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Samhlaítear béim áirithe le cúige amháin thar a chéile ar na saolta so agus tuigtear uaidh sin, san iomrall, gur amhlaidh a bhí le haois gadhair. Tá béim le clos i Maigh Eo go fóill féin nach samhlófaí léi ar an gclár comhrá so, ná in ollscoileanna go leor, bíodh Mac an Fhailigh beo nó marbh. Cuimhnímis nach bhfuil ach méid áirithe leathanach i leabhar Mhic an Fhailigh. Ní fhéadfadh sé aghaidh a thabhairt ar chúrsaí béime i gceart.

Tá sé chomh maith ag daoine an méid sin a thuiscint agus gan a bheith ag sárú ar na mairbh mar a chonaic mé scoláire óg a dhéanamh le páipéar comhdhála breis is deich mbliana ó shoin. Chuaigh mé chuige i ndiaidh na cainte, mar gur mheas mé go raibh sé óg leochailleach ina chuid léinn, in áit a mhíniú dó ós comhair an tslua, gur fearr a thuig an file gur ainmfhocal a bhí aige san fhocal 'se'. D'éist sé. Anois, tá an file áirithe a bhí i gceist ag iompar na bhfód le breis is trí chéad bliain agus chuaigh an scoláire óg i gcló tuairim is cúig bliana ó shoin á lochtú faoi fhorainm taispeántach, dar leis’sean, a bheith ag glacadh béime in ardrinn filíochta, d'ainneoin mo chogairse lena chur ar a fhaichill. Tá an t-ainmfhocal céanna beo i gcaint na ndaoine, mar a mhínigh mé dár scoláire óg, ach go samhlófadh muintir na linne seo an t-ainmfhocal céanna le haon chanúint amháin thar a chéile. 'Focal Gaeilge' a thabharfainnse féin air, an t-ainmfhocal so a shamhlófaí go forleathan leis an nGaeltacht Láir agus le canúint Lár-Uladh amháin anois é. ‘Focal Ultach’ a déarfadh muintir na linne seo linn. Muimhneach a bhí san fhile áirithe a raibh an focal aige.

Molaim do mhuintir na linne seo, gan a bheith ar nós an dreoláin a tharraing an chuiteog as an tsioc. "Is mór an ní an neart" a dúirt sé.

Ar an tanaí atá go leor de theoiricí na foghraíochta is na canúna nach ndearcfaidh siar ar an am a raibh an focal 'se(adh)' le clos sa Mhumhain agus sa Ghaeltacht Láir araon. Ar an dóigh chéanna, ní féidir béim na Gaeilge a thuiscint gan eolas a chur ar chanúint Chonnacht Láir - an chanúint ba mhó i gConnachta - agus ar chanúintí Íochtar Chonnacht, Maigh Eo san áireamh san.

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Smac_muirí
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Username: Smac_muirí

Post Number: 388
Registered: 06-2008
Posted on Saturday, September 26, 2009 - 07:40 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Dhaithí, a chara, stress in Irish in its entirety has yet to be written.

Be patient in regard to anything that may seem not to fit the picture, as presently conceived.

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Daveat168
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Username: Daveat168

Post Number: 36
Registered: 08-2009


Posted on Saturday, September 26, 2009 - 08:14 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A ċara,
dıa duıt,
quote:

Samhlaítear béim áirithe le cúige amháin . . .


Sorry, I missed most, if not all of that.
I am still basicly illiterate.
I am trying,
some say: "very".
My analysis of the song is based on rhyme and meter.
The pre 1948 words pass both these tests, the new Irish words fail both.

Here is the latest version in modern type:

165. preab san ól
1
Is ıomḋa slıġe do ḃíos ag daoıne
Ag cruınnıuġaḋ píġınne ıs ag déanaṁ stóır,
Is luıġead a ċuıṁnıġear do réır an tsaoġaıl seo,
Go mbeıḋ sıad sínte faoı lıc go fóıll.
Más tiġearna tıre, Rí nó Duke ṫú,
Ní raċarḋ píġınn leat fá'n ḃfód,
Mar sın, dá ḃrıġ sın, níl beart níos críonna
'Ná ḃeıṫ go síorruıḋe ag cur preab san ól.
2
Tá dream de ḋaoınıḃ le ba ıs le caoırıḃ
'Gá gcur ċun aonaıġ, ag faġáıl soċaır ṁóır,
'Gá gcur ar cíbe ıs as sın ar mínleac,
Poınntí críonna do feıcṫear ḋóıḃ
Tógaım fıaḋnaıse ar an mbuıḋean so
Go mbeıḋ a' caoıneaḋ ıs a' sılead deór,
Mar sın, dá ḃrıġ sın, níl beart níos críonna
'Ná ḃeıṫ go síorruıḋe ag cur preab san ól.
3
An ceannuıġe cınnte níl maoın ná slıġe ar bıṫ
Ar ór a ḋéanam naċ ḃfeıcṫear ḋó,
An ráta is daoıre ar an earraḋ is saoıre,
Is ar luaċ na pıġne go gcuırfeaḋ coróın;
Do réır ċaınnt Ċrıosta is níḋ do-ḋéanta
Cámall oıllteaċ do ṫaḃaırt tré ċró,
Mar sın, dá ḃrıġ sın, níl beart níos críonna
'Ná ḃeıṫ go síorruıḋe ag cur preab san ól.
4
Aċt sıúd é an Críostaıḋe tá láġaċ le daoıne,
Maxwell dílıs tá 'na ċeannṗórt,
Naċ gcuırfeaḋ bısıuġaḋ an ṗórt dá saoṫruġaḋ,
Agus ḃaınfeaḋ a ḃríste do 'Tóny Ṁór,
'Sé a ṗléısıúr saoġalta de tó ıs d'oıḋċe,
Cruınnıú saoıṫeaṁaıl ḃeıṫ aıge ar bórd,
Punch is fíon a ṫaḃaırt dóıḃ go líonṁar,
Cóṁráḋ saoıṫeaṁaıl agus preab san ól.
5
An long ar sáıle nıl cuan ná ceárd
Náċ gcaıṫfeaḋ cáırde ar fuaıd an doṁaın ṁóır,
Ó ríoġac’t na Spáınne go Gıbráltar,
Is an áıt a ḃíoḋ an Grand Seıgnıór,
Le lastaí áıseaċ' ag líonaḋ málaí
Náċ gconḃóċ an bár uarḋ ḋá uaır de'n ló,
Mar sın, a ċárde, níl beart níos feárr ḋúınn
'Ná ḃeıṫ mar tá sınn, ag cur preab san ól.
6
Is olc an tslıġe a ḃeıṫ ag árdú cíosa,
A' déanaṁ daoırse, agus trıbute mór,
A' cur na ndaoıne ó ṫeaċ ıs ó ḋídean--
Níḋ, faraoın! atá cınnte ḋóıḃ,
An té do-ġní so ıs dó ıs baoġluıġe,
A ḃeıṫ 'ġá íosbaırt 'ġá ḃruıṫ 's 'ġá ḋóġaḋ,
Mar sın, dá ḃrıġ sın, níl beart níos críonna
'Ná ḃeıṫ go síorruıḋe ag cur preab san ól.
7
Is meara ċoıḋċe 'ná ḃeıṫ ag árduġaḋ cíosa,
Gan an deaċṁaḋ a ṡuıḋeaċan mar is cóır,
Taḃaırt saoṫar Críostaıḋe gan ḃláṫ gan ḃuıḋeaċas
Don ċléır náċ ndéanann aon tsaoṫar dóıḃ,
Ní hé Críosta d'órdaıġ an dlıġe so,
Ní hé Peadar a ṁínıġ é ná Pól.
Mar sın, dá ḃrıġ sın, níl beart níos críonna
'Ná ḃeıṫ go síorruıḋe ag cur preab san ól.
8
Is geárr an saoġal a ḃíos ag an lılí sgíoṁaċ,
Gıḋ gur buıḋe ıs gur geal a ċoróın
Solaṁ crínna ına ċulaıḋ ríoġaṁaıl
Níl sé ı ngaoḃar ḃeıṫ coṁ nıaṁḋa leo,
Níl sa tsaoġal so aċt mar sıonán gaoıṫe.
An gaṫ 'ġá sgaoıleaḋ nó slam den gceó,
Mar sın, dá ḃrıġ sın, níl beart níos críonna
'Ná ḃeıṫ go síorruıḋe ag cur preab san ól.

Rıocard Baıréad.

Go raiḃ maiṫ agat.
Slán.

Mar sın, dá ḃrıġ sın, níl beart níos críonna
'Ná ḃeıṫ go síorruıḋe ag cur preab san ól.

Rıocard Baıréad.

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Seánw
Member
Username: Seánw

Post Number: 130
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Saturday, September 26, 2009 - 12:05 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

My analysis of the song is based on rhyme and meter. The pre 1948 words pass both these tests, the new Irish words fail both.



That is to be expected. In English Chaucer, Shakespeare, Southwell, etc. don't rhyme always still, but their old spelling will. A lot of Mother Goose nursury rhymes also don't still, but their old spelling will. That's why sometimes these songs are tweaked with word changes and things of that sort. It is not the spelling that triggers that, it is the fact that in many cases people's pronunciations of those words have changed. The spelling reform was not based on poetic rendition. A lot people who try to "put on" a shakespearian accent for productions will use phonetic alphabets. It may well be that the spelling doesn't matter much at all as this is a highly oral/auditory experiential subject matter.

What's the purpose of the use?

To read? > Modern spelling.

To recite? > Phonetic spelling, maybe pre-reformed spelling if you know how to read it.

To be nostalgic? Ogham

I ndiaidh a chéile a thógtar na caisleáin.

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Daveat168
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Username: Daveat168

Post Number: 37
Registered: 08-2009


Posted on Saturday, September 26, 2009 - 03:19 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Ṡeánw, a ċara,
dıa duıt,
quote:

What's the purpose of the use?


To recite: it is after all a poem set to music.
That is what a song is.
We don't redesign the Mona Lisa because we have a 20Mpix digital camera.
We might make a 20Mpix copy, but that would be the best, and most faithful copy we could make.
Maybe, then, we might adjust the colours to reverse the ravages of time, but the effort would always be to be faithful to the author or artist.
What we have is a song in the Munster dialect.
To try to present it in any other dialect would be a great dis-service to the art, and the artist.
Those of us who remember the Latin, still use the Pater Noster, as it was put into Latin some 1800 years ago.
The so called improvements introduced by St Jerome have been saved in reference books, but we still use the old version.
That is how it should be.
If the Latin can survive 1800 years, why cannot the Irish survive a mere 150 years?
This is only a third of the age of Shakespearian art, and we still use that in its original dialect, or as nearly as we can yet read it.
If we cannot understand Munster dialect any more, what of the great mass of Lost Irish literature.

I am not calling for a reversion to the days when Scots Gaelic, and Irish, and Manx were written alike, but there is merit in that.
No, Just hold to the pre-1948, as is the standard for government documents and traffic signs.
The pre-1948 spelling can be embodied in modern type, as the above makes clear.
No, I am not nostalgic for seanċló. It is difficult to read, and style variations are limited.
Oxford font is similarly difficult.
Times, or Helvetica are good, as is Comic sans.

Go raıḃ maıṫ agat.
Slán.
Dave.

Mar sın, dá ḃrıġ sın, níl beart níos críonna
'Ná ḃeıṫ go síorruıḋe ag cur preab san ól.

Rıocard Baıréad.

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Seánw
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Username: Seánw

Post Number: 132
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Saturday, September 26, 2009 - 04:02 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

To try to present it in any other dialect would be a great dis-service to the art, and the artist.



Sure. I agree. Again, but what's the purpose? Do you want to learn what the poem says, or what it sounded like, or both? This would dictate what form the poem is presented in.

quote:

Those of us who remember the Latin, still use the Pater Noster, as it was put into Latin some 1800 years ago. The so called improvements introduced by St Jerome have been saved in reference books, but we still use the old version. That is how it should be.



I don't understand your reference to St Jerome's improvements (quotidianum versus superstantialialem?, he used both). Either way, that doesn't quite apply because the Lord's Prayer was in Aramaic, and then Greek, and then Latin. And the primary point of the prayer is the content, not the sound.

I ndiaidh a chéile a thógtar na caisleáin.

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Daveat168
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Username: Daveat168

Post Number: 38
Registered: 08-2009


Posted on Saturday, September 26, 2009 - 04:32 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Ṡeánw, a ċara,
dıa duıt,
quote:

Sure. I agree. Again, but what's the purpose? Do you want to learn what the poem says, or what it sounded like, or both? This would dictate what form the poem is presented in.


Initially, just the sound.
I have until 1st March to learn that much.
Ideally, to understand it, not as a translation, but in the native dialect, but that is, in reality, pushing possibility.
Actually, at my present state of literacy, the seanchló spelling in a modern typeface is as easy to read as all these 'h's. It's just a little difficult to input.
It would be nice to have an easy way for dots where they belong, and not where they don't.
quote:

I don't understand your reference to St Jerome's improvements (quotidianum versus superstantialialem?, he used both). Either way, that doesn't quite apply because the Lord's Prayer was in Aramaic, and then Greek, and then Latin. And the primary point of the prayer is the content, not the sound.


You got it in one.
Actually, Latin was the first international language the Lord's Prayer was written in.
This was in AD200.
Long before any Greek witness.
Indeed, the Greek is probably a copy of the Old Latin!
But that is another story.
It was a 200 year old tradition before St Jerome most unpopularly meddled with it.
That was the real point.

Go raıḃ maıṫ agat.
Slán.
Dave.

Mar sın, dá ḃrıġ sın, níl beart níos críonna
'Ná ḃeıṫ go síorruıḋe ag cur preab san ól.

Rıocard Baıréad.

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Ingeborg
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Username: Ingeborg

Post Number: 106
Registered: 03-2008


Posted on Saturday, September 26, 2009 - 05:31 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Actually, Latin was the first international language the Lord's Prayer was written in.



Ancient Greek was as international a language as Latin in that period.

quote:

This was in AD200. Long before any Greek witness.



"Rylands Papyrus 52 is generally accepted as the earliest extant record of a canonical New Testament, which dates somewhere between 117 AD and 138 AD."

The lord's prayer is part of the the Gospel of Matthew 6:9–13 and the Gospel of Luke 11:2–4. These texts existed certainly in a Greek version before 200 AD.

But I won't go into theology now.

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Seánw
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Username: Seánw

Post Number: 133
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Saturday, September 26, 2009 - 05:52 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Long before any Greek witness. Indeed, the Greek is probably a copy of the Old Latin! But that is another story.
It was a 200 year old tradition before St Jerome most unpopularly meddled with it. That was the real point.



Ah! ... luckily this is an Irish board. I wholeheartedly disagree with you.

I ndiaidh a chéile a thógtar na caisleáin.

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Faberm
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Username: Faberm

Post Number: 84
Registered: 02-2009


Posted on Saturday, September 26, 2009 - 09:06 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Dave:

My 3 cents would tell you to just go with the irish Orthography. Brendan and others encouraged me to do so when I started to back in March 09 and they steered me properly. It just takes a while for it all to make sense. I also read and write Hebrew and it would be incredibly restrictive trying to do Hebrew without reading in Hebrew characters. One great thing you can do is sign up with Michelle Gallen for her 365 words. She pronounces every new word and puts it in a sentence which is pronounced. It is in Ulster pronunciation, but it's as good as any and you can hear it spoken! The link for today's word is as follows:

http://talkirish.com/cfs-filesystemfile.ashx/__key/CommunityServer.Components.Po stAttachments/.35/magazine_5F00_iris_5F00_sentence.mp3

I am so gratelful to this precious lady for doing this. Is maith sin! Tá sí iontach brea! Is maith liom!.

le meas,
Faber MacMhaolain

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Daveat168
Member
Username: Daveat168

Post Number: 39
Registered: 08-2009


Posted on Sunday, September 27, 2009 - 05:18 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Aonġus, a ċara,
dıa duıt,

Go raıḃ maıṫ agat.

quote:

Seo leagan atá i Filidheacht na nGaedheal (1940)

Is gearr an saoghal a bhíos ag an Lilí sgíomhach
Gidh gur buidhe is gur geal a coróin
Solamh críonna ina culaidh ríoghamail
níl sé i ngaobhar a bheith chomh niamhda leo.

Tagairt don mBíobla
http://bible.cc/matthew/6-29.htm



I examined carefully, (as you noticed), and transcribed the words into a modern typeface, devising a method of printing the exception characters, (cut and paste)
quote:

Times Seanċló exceptions
á Á ḃ Ḃ ċ Ċ ḋ Ḋ
é É ḟ Ḟ ġ Ġ ı I
í Í j J ṁ Ṁ ó Ó
ṗ Ṗ ṡ Ṡ ṫ Ṫ ú Ú


and am now using The Eucational Irish-English Pronouncing Dictionary, (downloaded and printed), to get an idea of the pronunciation.
I had already received a strong clue that Ciarán Bourke had Munster Irish, and the degree that the words of your find, when pronounced in Munster, iaw the said dictionary, matched what Ciarán sounded like, matching so well, rhyme and meter, I boldly assumed this, contrary to common belief to be a Munster dialect song.
I deduce from your post that it is a pre 1948 copy, I see 1940.
quote:

Macdara
Posted on Monday, September 21, 2009 - 05:30 am:
Daithi a Chara, I got the lyrics of Preab San ól from a book called Ceolta Gael, Sean & Manus O Baoill,Ossian publications. As far as I know Ciaran Bourke spoke Irish in the Munster dialect. Luke sings the same verses - more or less- as Béarla.
Actually,the first verse ' is iomaí slí sin ' etc. was inscribed on a wall outside the Western Star.One of the handsomest pubs in Cork and a big favourite with UCC students:until some tasteless fool demolished it a short while back.
That book, by the way, is a real treasure trove. There was a cassette with it.


Above is the clue.
Do you know if the version you found is the same as the one Macdara found, or is his the modern, (edited), version?
Are you able to support my conjecture that this is indeed a Munster dialect song, though composed by an Erris man, or am I up a gum tree.

Go raıḃ maıṫ agat.
Slán.
Dave.

Mar sın, dá ḃrıġ sın, níl beart níos críonna
'Ná ḃeıṫ go síorruıḋe ag cur preab san ól.

Rıocard Baıréad.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 8877
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Sunday, September 27, 2009 - 11:43 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I tend to be dialect agnostic, so I have no opinion in the matter. Sorry.

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Daveat168
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Username: Daveat168

Post Number: 40
Registered: 08-2009


Posted on Monday, September 28, 2009 - 11:40 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Ḃreandán, a ċara,
dıa duıt,


quote:

is iomaí shlí a bhíos ag daoine
/simuí xjlí ûvísegj duíni/
/simi: x'l'i: ə w'i:s eg' di:n'ə/


or
Is ıomḋa slıġe do ḃíos ag daoıne

We see a gross miss-spelling between 'iomaí', and 'ıomḋa'.
These two words are obviously not pronounced alike.
The first would seem to be in error wrt seanchló spelling.

Or can it be that this is an example of the Dialectic drift exemplified in:
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=QUlGDUBmB50C&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_n avlinks_s#v=onepage&q=&f=true
viz.
Table 1.1 Derivations of páighe 'pay'
________________ Donegal/Mayo __ Connemara ____ Munster
underlying form __páighe /paːjə/ ___páighe /paːjə/___páighe /paːjə/
ighe /əjə/ > í /iː/ _________________ páí /paːiː/_____ páí /paːiː/
following long
vowel í is deleted _______________________________ pá /paː/
result __________ páighe /paːjə/ –––– páí /paːiː/ _____ pá /paː/

Are we thus seeing here:
underlying form = iomdhaighe,
Connemara form = iomdhaí,
Munster form = iomdha?

If the conjecture is correct, then here is good evidence that at least pre-1940, this was a Munster dialect song.

Go raiḃ maiṫ agat.
slán.
Dave.

Mar sın, dá ḃrıġ sın, níl beart níos críonna
'Ná ḃeıṫ go síorruıḋe ag cur preab san ól.

Rıocard Baıréad.

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Daveat168
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Username: Daveat168

Post Number: 41
Registered: 08-2009


Posted on Monday, September 28, 2009 - 11:47 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Ḃreandán, a ċara,
dıa duıt,

Here is my modification of the broad/slender rules for Q+D.
I think that this should sort most of the problems.
As for capital L, and N, Ó duirinne and Ó dálaiġ use ll, and nn.
What is good enough for them is good enough for me.
Q+D is heavily based upon their work.

The new rules:

Notes on Q+D
Both 't' and 'd', when broad, are pronounced with the tip of the tongue on the tips of the upper teeth, (unlike English, on the bases). Thus the sound tends to leak, resembling, with some speakers, the English 'th' sound: 'th' as in 'than' for 'd', and 'Thanet', for 't'.
Some speakers pronounce the slender 't' as English 'ch', or Q+D 'tj', and 'd' as English 'j', Q+D 'dj'.
These latter pronunciations are not considered proper by some.

There is no explicit difference between broad and slender consonants.
A consonant is broad before 'a' or 'á', 'o' or 'ó', 'u' or 'ú', or the semivowel 'w', or, after such a vowel, or the semivowel 'y'
A consonant is slender before 'e' or é', 'i' or 'í' or the semivowels 'y' or 'j', or, after such a vowel, or the semivowel 'w'.

The special glide characters work like this:
Slender to broad glide: 'y': any consonant group directly to the left of the glide is slender, and any to the right, broad.
Likewise, if there is a vowel directly to the left of this character, it will be slender, 'i', 'e', and if to the right, broad, 'a', 'o', 'u'. Also considered broad is 'û'.
Broad to slender glide 'w': The converse of the above.

Both 'y' and 'w' may also stand as consonants in their own right, and as such may stand between two broad vowels, or two slender vowels, like any other consonant.

The rule is this:
If the glide consonant stands between a normal consonant and a vowel, in the correct order, it is a glide.
If it stands between a broad vowel and a slender vowel, in the correct order, it is a glide.
If the order is incorrect for a glide, then it is a normal consonant.

The semivowel 'j' differs from 'y' in that it implies special sibilance to the preceding consonant, thus it is only normally found after an 's', and may be found therefore before a slender vowel to affirm the special sibilance of the 's'.

In this system, two vowels are never put together without a semivowel glide in between.

Go raiḃ maiṫ agat.
slán.
Dave.

Mar sın, dá ḃrıġ sın, níl beart níos críonna
'Ná ḃeıṫ go síorruıḋe ag cur preab san ól.

Rıocard Baıréad.

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Breandán
Member
Username: Breandán

Post Number: 327
Registered: 12-2008


Posted on Monday, September 28, 2009 - 03:44 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Hi, Dave.

I see your point about the song being a Munster song. Still not entirely sure about your sound source yet but you may be able to get someone well-versed in Munster dialect to "fix it up" for you.

Some finer points:

quote:

Some speakers pronounce the slender 't' as English 'ch', or Q+D 'tj', and 'd' as English 'j', Q+D 'dj'.
These latter pronunciations are not considered proper by some.



What you should be aiming for is a sound closer to the t in BRP "Tuesday" rather than the ch in "chew" and the d in BRP "dew" rather than the j in "jew", respectively.

For comparison, how would you represent tiús, tiúis, túr, túir, diúl, diúil, dúl, and dúil in Q+D?

quote:

The special glide characters work like this:
Slender to broad glide: 'y': any consonant group directly to the left of the glide is slender, and any to the right, broad.
Likewise, if there is a vowel directly to the left of this character, it will be slender, 'i', 'e', and if to the right, broad, 'a', 'o', 'u'. Also considered broad is 'û'.
Broad to slender glide 'w': The converse of the above.



Six months ago I would have simply agreed on the use of "w" but it has been pointed out that the glide is technically [ɰ], which is why I went with the /u/ myself.

I suppose the important thing is to remember that the glide is not necessarily an English "w" even if that letter is chosen to represent the glide in the phonology.

Also, I don't seen any mention of gh and dh in your explanation. How would you represent , ghá, , and dhá in Q+D? (You'll need it here: An gaṫ 'ġá sgaoıleaḋ nó slam den gceó.)

Lastly (for now) how would you represent preab (possibly the most important word in the song)? To gloss over the /p'r'/ as /pr/, i.e., to pronounce preab like "pram" with a b instead of an m, would the equivalent of singing 'Ilkley Moor' with a French or German accent. I think we can do a little better than that...

Breandán


nominative Breandán /b'r'æNdɑ:N/; vocative = a Bhreandáin /w'r'æNdɑ:n'/

Q+D: /biryanndánn/ (?) and /(û) vryanndány/ (?) or
Q+D: /birjanndánn/ (?) and /(û) vrjanndány/ (?) or ... ?
Given the relationship between /s/ and /sj/, /rj/ seems the better way to represent the slender r...

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Seánw
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Username: Seánw

Post Number: 137
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Monday, September 28, 2009 - 04:11 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Six months ago I would have simply agreed on the use of "w" but it has been pointed out that the glide is technically [ɰ], which is why I went with the /u/ myself.



My understanding is that [ɰ] is the off glide for all except the labials, in which case it is [w].

I ndiaidh a chéile a thógtar na caisleáin.

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Daveat168
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Username: Daveat168

Post Number: 42
Registered: 08-2009


Posted on Monday, September 28, 2009 - 07:11 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Ḃreandáin, a ċara,
dıa duıt,
quote:

For comparison, how would you represent tiús, tiúis, túr, túir, diúl, diúil, dúl, and dúil in Q+D?


Quite basic, actually,
tyús, tyúwis, túr, túwir, dyúl, dyúwil, dúl, dúwil.
You will find actually,that if you pronounce the words you hav given sic scriptum, you will find yourself pronouncing what is given as Q+D, treating 'y' and 'w' as consonantal vowels!
At worst, you might find yourself exaggerating the glides.
quote:

Also, I don't seen any mention of gh and dh in your explanation. How would you represent gá, ghá, dá, and dhá in Q+D? (You'll need it here: An gaṫ 'ġá sgaoıleaḋ nó slam den gceó.)


Broad 'dh', and 'gh' are represented by 'q'. Not the best, but at least it represents a guteral sound.
Hence: gá, qá, dá, qá.
Ûn go qó scwílyûd nó slam den gyó,
quote:

Lastly (for now) how would you represent preab (possibly the most important word in the song)? To gloss over the /p'r'/ as /pr/, i.e., to pronounce preab like "pram" with a b instead of an m, would the equivalent of singing 'Ilkley Moor' with a French or German accent. I think we can do a little better than that...


Working from the dictionary, I write:
Nó ve gu sjiwrí eg || cur pryob sûn ól.
but listening carefully to Ciarán, I hear:
Ná ve gu sjiwrí 'g || cur prab son ól.
quote:

nominative Breandán /b'r'æNdɑ:N/; vocative = a Bhreandáin /w'r'æNdɑ:n'/

Q+D: /biryanndánn/ (?) and /(û) vryanndány/ (?) or
Q+D: /birjanndánn/ (?) and /(û) vrjanndány/ (?) or ... ?
Given the relationship between /s/ and /sj/, /rj/ seems the better way to represent the slender r...


Here, I need to hear.
Is there an unwritten vowel between the 'B' and the 'r'?
Yes the implication from the spelling is that both 'B' and 'r' are slender, but bearing in mind that 'l', and 'r' are also classed as semivowels, this might be theoretically true, but not necessarily so. It is possible for an 'r' or an 'l' to serve as glides.
I am actually beginning to lose the need for 'j' as long as we remember the broad/slender rules, which are basicaly the same as the normal Irish orthographic rules, except that we have specific glides.
The only places where I can uniquely require 'j' are where we find a consonantal change such as which happens to a slender 's', or improperly to a slender 'd' or 't'.
The light buzz attaching to the slender 'r', to me sounds like a light trill, and not a peculiar change.
So, I would not be inclined to specially mark the slender 'r' as being sibilant. Maybe that is a Munster trait. I have only heard Munster pronunciation.
I am doing TYI, (Ó Sé & sheils), next, so that may change.
Meanwhile, I would expect to write: Breynndónn, and a Vreynndówn.
No. that does not work.
Maybe this is a place for 'j' as consonantal 'i' for special cases, viz:
a Vreynndójn.
However, this is all dependent upon the theoretical changes in broad and slender 'n', which may not be perceptible. In which case it is all irrelevant. Certainly attempts to represent these minor changes are overly clumsy, and might need to go into the 'dirty' box.

Go raıḃ maıṫ agat.
Slán.
Dave.

Mar sın, dá ḃrıġ sın, níl beart níos críonna
'Ná ḃeıṫ go síorruıḋe ag cur preab san ól.

Rıocard Baıréad.

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Daveat168
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Username: Daveat168

Post Number: 43
Registered: 08-2009


Posted on Monday, September 28, 2009 - 08:02 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A ċara,
dıa duıt,

I have tried, using the dictionary, to dervive an approximation to the pronunciation of three verses, and have compared the results with what I perceive Ciarán to be singing.
Verse 1
predicted:
Iys yuma sjlí du || vís eg dwínû
Eg crwíngax píngû || iys eg dénuv stóyr,
Iys llwiyûd a xwiníar || du réyr ûn téyûl sjû,
Gu mey sjiyud sjintjû || fwí lic gu fóyl
Mós tíyûrna tírû, || Duke nó Rí hú,
Ní roxí píng lat || fó 'n vód
Mór sjin dó vjrí sjin || níl bart níus crínû
Nó ve gu sjiwrí eg || cur pryob sûn ól.

Perceived:
Iys uma xlí a || vís eg dénû
Eg renox pínû || 's eg dénuv stóy,
Iys léyûd û xevniyû || 's du rér ûn téyûl sjo,
Gu mey sjiyûd sjintjû || fay lic go fóyl
Más tíyûrna tírû, || Duke nó Rí hú,
Ní raxa pín lat || fé 'n vóyd
Már sjin dá vjrí sjin || níl bart níus crínû
Ná ve gu sjiwrí 'g || cur prab son ól.

Verse 8
Predicted:
Iys gár ûn séyûll a || vis eg ûn lilí scjíyûvûx,
Gí gur bwí iys gur || gawll a xuróyn
Sullúwû crína || inû xulla ríyúl
Níl sjé i ngwéyur || ve cú níyûvqû lyo,
Níl sû teyull sû ox || mor sjiyunón gwíhû,
Ûn go qó scwílyûd || nó slam den gyó,
Mór sjin dó vjrí sjin || níl bart níus crínû
Nó ve gu sjiwrí eg || cur pryob sun ól.

Perceived:
Iys (uma xlí) a || vis eg ûn lilí scjíyûvûx,
Gí gur bwí iys gur || gál a xuróyn
(Solomon) crína || inû xulla ríhól
Níl ve sjé yo ngávur || ve xo níyûvqû lyo,
(Ó) níl sû teyull sû ox || mor sjiyunón gwíhû,
Ûn (slam den) scwílyûd || nó slam den xyó,
Már sjin dá vjrí sjin || níl bart níus crínû
Ná ve gu sjiwrí ve 'g || cur prab son ól.

In parenthasis are definite differences, some of which are errors by the performer.

Verse 3
Predicted:
Ûn caní cintû || níl mwín nó sjlí er bi
er ór a yénûv || nox vecar qó,
Ûn rócû iys dwírû || er ûn arrû iys swírû,
Iys er llúwûx nû || pín gû gwirfû cûrówin;
Dû réyr xaynt Xríyûstû || iys ní dû-déyûntû
Cómall wiltyax dû || towirt trí xró,
Mór sjin dó vjrí sjin || níl bart níus crínû
Nó ve gû sjiwrí eg || cur pryob sûn ól.

Now, have we any who
are familiar with Munster dialect
and can decode Q+D
Who would like to help with pronunciation of these verses?

Go raıḃ maıṫ agat.
Slán.
Dave.

ps got skype.

Mar sın, dá ḃrıġ sın, níl beart níos críonna
'Ná ḃeıṫ go síorruıḋe ag cur preab san ól.

Rıocard Baıréad.

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Breandán
Member
Username: Breandán

Post Number: 329
Registered: 12-2008


Posted on Tuesday, September 29, 2009 - 04:27 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

My understanding is that [ɰ] is the off glide for all except the labials, in which case it is [w].



Thanks, a Sheáinw, for the clarification.

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Macdara
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Username: Macdara

Post Number: 48
Registered: 09-2008
Posted on Tuesday, September 29, 2009 - 08:08 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Daithi a chara,I go the book Ceolta Gael from the Living Tradition shop in Cork.Sadly the shop is no more but the book was published by Ossian Publications ISBN 1 900428 50 4 OMB 120.

The authors are Seán Og agus Mánus O Baoill.1975.Ossian have an email But since they were connected to the shop I'm not sure how viable it is.Actually ,the web caused their demise.I asked for a cd by Eilís ní Chinnéide once .'All these sean nós singers have their own sites now ' the guy said.It suits them as they have a very small turnover.This ,he explained ,was why he had to sell 'The Celtic tenors' and other stuff - to subdidise the real thing.Tá brón orm faoi sin but I hope tis of some help.Macdara.

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Daveat168
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Username: Daveat168

Post Number: 44
Registered: 08-2009


Posted on Tuesday, September 29, 2009 - 02:21 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Ṁacdara, a ċara,
dıa duıt,

quote:

Daithi a chara,I go the book Ceolta Gael from the Living Tradition shop in Cork.Sadly the shop is no more but the book was published by Ossian Publications ISBN 1 900428 50 4 OMB 120.



I have found several copies of this book for sale, but>>>
What does this book have, that is different from the fairly obviouly Munster dialect version, which Ciarán tries to sing.
The standard dialect version is of no interest to me.
It is pronunciation of the Munster dialect version I need.

Also, does Ciarán sing with a correct Munster accent, or is he trying to pronounce 'phonetically'?
He does tend to pronounce 'a' as in hat, and not as in hot.

So, as you can see from the Q+D, what I hear is not quite what I expect.
Which is better, what I predict, based on the pronouncing dictionary, or what I hear, based on Ciarán?

Go raıḃ maıṫ agat.
Slán.
Dave.

Mar sın, dá ḃrıġ sın, níl beart níos críonna
'Ná ḃeıṫ go síorruıḋe ag cur preab san ól.

Rıocard Baıréad.

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Daveat168
Member
Username: Daveat168

Post Number: 45
Registered: 08-2009


Posted on Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - 04:16 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Ḃreandáin, a ċara,
dıa duıt,


quote:

quote:

My understanding is that [ɰ] is the off glide for all except the labials, in which case it is [w].



Thanks, a Sheáinw, for the clarification.



I think I have been chasing my tail here.
Trying to nail down the semi-vowels and consonantal vowels as glides does not work as I have tried.
'y' does not just glide from slender to broad, it can glide from broad to lender also, or between vowels in either group.
'ya', 'ye', 'yi', 'yo', & 'yu' are all valid glides, as are:
'ay', 'ey', 'iy', 'oy', 'uy'.
The same essentially applies to 'w'.
So the rules on glides need to be relaxed widely.
Though, 'w' & 'y'; 'j' for that matter, are treated in some sense as consonants, it would seem better, if in terms of controlling broad vs slender, they were treated as vowels.
So, for pronunciation, they are consonantal, or in the Irish sense, glides, but for grammatical purposes, they are vowels, 'y' and 'j', being pro-slender, and 'w' being pro-broad.
They do not then stand without an adjacent vowel, except possibly at the beginning, or end of a word.

Go raıḃ maıṫ agat.
Slán.
Dave.

Mar sın, dá ḃrıġ sın, níl beart níos críonna
'Ná ḃeıṫ go síorruıḋe ag cur preab san ól.

Rıocard Baıréad.

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Daveat168
Member
Username: Daveat168

Post Number: 46
Registered: 08-2009


Posted on Monday, October 05, 2009 - 05:11 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A ċaırde,
dıa daoıḃ,
Interesting discovery in ancient book.
As early as 1809, from p6 of 'A Practical Grammar of the Irish Language', we have, in seanchló type, the optional use of the aspirate 'h', and the bualite dot.

So the choice never was dependent upon type style, only upon taste.

The use of the 'h' in modern type, was of old, a matter of necessity, as the earlier typesetters did not support the bualite dot.

This is no longer the case, so taste can rule again.

Go raıḃ maıṫ agat.
Slán.
Dave.

Mar sın, dá ḃrıġ sın, níl beart níos críonna
'Ná ḃeıṫ go síorruıḋe ag cur preab san ól.

Rıocard Baıréad.

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James_murphy
Member
Username: James_murphy

Post Number: 350
Registered: 11-2005


Posted on Monday, October 05, 2009 - 02:44 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Dháibhídh,
How do you type undotted I's?
Thanks.

Séamus Ó Murċaḋa

Inis fá réim i gcéin san Iarṫar tá
Dá ngoirid luċt léiġinn Tír Éireann fialṁar cáil

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Ingeborg
Member
Username: Ingeborg

Post Number: 108
Registered: 03-2008


Posted on Monday, October 05, 2009 - 04:01 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

In Unicode U+0131 is a lower case letter dotless i (ı), i.e. without the tittle.

You will find it mainly in the Turkish alphabet.

But when I used it in a thread, not everyone had it correctly on his screen.

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James_murphy
Member
Username: James_murphy

Post Number: 351
Registered: 11-2005


Posted on Monday, October 05, 2009 - 05:18 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Thanks for the reply Ingeborg.

It seems to be & #305 on this site (without the gap between & and #).
If there was a quicker shortcut for this symbol, using the ponnc with Roman type would be more feasible.

Séamus Ó Murċaḋa

Inis fá réim i gcéin san Iarṫar tá
Dá ngoirid luċt léiġinn Tír Éireann fialṁar cáil

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Daveat168
Member
Username: Daveat168

Post Number: 47
Registered: 08-2009


Posted on Monday, October 05, 2009 - 09:51 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Ṡéamuıs, a ċara,
dıa duıt,

quote:

A Dháibhídh,
How do you type undotted I's?
Thanks.



Just cut and paste from these frigs.
They also work in MS Word and Excel.

Times Seanċló exceptions
á Á ḃ Ḃ ċ Ċ ḋ Ḋ
é É ḟ Ḟ ġ Ġ ı I
í Í j J ṁ Ṁ ó Ó
ṗ Ṗ ṡ Ṡ ṫ Ṫ ú Ú

Go raıḃ maıṫ agat.
Slán.
Dave.

Mar sın, dá ḃrıġ sın, níl beart níos críonna
'Ná ḃeıṫ go síorruıḋe ag cur preab san ól.

Rıocard Baıréad.

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Daveat168
Member
Username: Daveat168

Post Number: 48
Registered: 08-2009


Posted on Wednesday, October 07, 2009 - 11:37 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Ċıonaoıdh, a ċara,
dıa duıt,
quote:

1. Teach Yourself Irish by Myles Dillon & Donncha Ó Cróinín (1960). This book teaches West Cork Irish. The phonetics in the book are, in my opinion, a bit dodgy. However, there was audio for this course available on LP records (contact me off-list for help finding the audio).


I can't find you off-list.
You can find my eMail from my site.
Yes, I would greatly appreceate your help here.
I have the book, and have scanned it to pdf before it falls apart.
Using O Sé, I have devised how to stitch the MP3 recordings into the PDF, making them more useful than the raw recordings which are virtually useless as they stand.
I hope to do the same with the earlier recordings.
As this is out of print, copyright should not be a problem.

Go raıḃ maıṫ agat.
Slán.
Dave.

Mar sın, dá ḃrıġ sın, níl beart níos críonna
'Ná ḃeıṫ go síorruıḋe ag cur preab san ól.

Rıocard Baıréad.

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Seánw
Member
Username: Seánw

Post Number: 163
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Wednesday, October 07, 2009 - 01:52 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

As this is out of print, copyright should not be a problem.



Whether something is out of print or not has no bearing on copyright protection. A 1960 work is most likely still in copyright protection. Your use, though, may permit you to copy etc. Generally fair use allows you to use works for personal, non-commercial, educational purposes. UK I think asserts moral rights too, but if you just use something for yourself, you'll be fine.

I ndiaidh a chéile a thógtar na caisleáin.

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Cionaodh
Member
Username: Cionaodh

Post Number: 692
Registered: 05-2005


Posted on Friday, October 09, 2009 - 08:31 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Scríobh Dave:
quote:

I can't find you off-list.
You can find my eMail from my site.
Yes, I would greatly appreceate your help here.



I wrote to you earlier this week and received no reply. In case you have a hyper-active spam filter blocking messages, you can reach me at cionaodh (at) gaeilge.org

http://www.gaeilge.org

FRC - Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin

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Daveat168
Member
Username: Daveat168

Post Number: 50
Registered: 08-2009


Posted on Monday, October 12, 2009 - 04:25 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A ċaırde,
dıa daoıḃ,
I have uploaded to box.net a scanned copy of Myles Dillon.
The access link is:

I have set the page numbers,
put in bookmarks corresponding with contents headings,
cross-linked the contents headings with the contents, and,
cross-linked the exercises with the exercise answers.
I have also informed the UK copyright holder of my intents, and having received no response, informed them that failure to respond implies lack of interest, so that silence implies consent.
Enjoy!
Slán
Dave.

(Message edited by admin on October 12, 2009)

Mar sın, dá ḃrıġ sın, níl beart níos críonna
'Ná ḃeıṫ go síorruıḋe ag cur preab san ól.

Rıocard Baıréad.

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Caoimhín
Board Administrator
Username: Caoimhín

Post Number: 257
Registered: 01-1999


Posted on Monday, October 12, 2009 - 09:57 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Daveat168, you need written permission from the publisher/copyright holder to copy the work in question and publicly distribute it.

In the meantime, please do not post links to scanned, copyrighted material.

Caoimhín

Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam.

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Daveat168
Member
Username: Daveat168

Post Number: 51
Registered: 08-2009


Posted on Monday, October 12, 2009 - 11:17 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Ċaoıṁín, a ċara,
dıa duıt,
I understand that this is the position for actively published material, and would not dream of contravening such.
However, where a publication is out of print, and the publisher having been notified, then where a lack of interest is displayed, then, reasonable use is permitted.
Actually, in Australia, if a publisher refuses to issue reprints of out-of-print works, the copyright is deemed to have lapsed. This is what is deemed reasonable in Australia, and though that is not directly relevant here, it is a valid guide as to what is commonly deemed to be reasonable.
I am not in an way trying to disguise the identity of the original copyright holder, nor am I working behind his back, but openly.
This is not for profit, but for educational use only.
I cannot imagine it being put to any other use.
That I have made it available Free Of Charge proves that there is no profit motive.
However, I understand your legal position, and will not further publish this link on your site, however, if anyone is interested, and cares to contact me via eMail, my address can be found on my web site, I will happily provide them with the link at my own risk.

Go raıḃ maıṫ agat.
Slán.
Dave.

Mar sın, dá ḃrıġ sın, níl beart níos críonna
'Ná ḃeıṫ go síorruıḋe ag cur preab san ól.

Rıocard Baıréad.

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Seánw
Member
Username: Seánw

Post Number: 177
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Monday, October 12, 2009 - 05:14 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

However, where a publication is out of print, and the publisher having been notified, then where a lack of interest is displayed, then, reasonable use is permitted.



Dave,
I think you are construing copyright in an incorrect way. Copyright is not affected by printing status or price tags. Someone could hold copyright even if they do not wish to continue to publish a work. Someone could also hold copyright if they choose to distribute the work for free, and place a restriction that someone can't turn around and sell it at a price. You are quick to assume lack of interest. Maybe the guy is on vacation. Maybe he is sick in bed. Maybe he doesn't hold copyright. Maybe it is the publisher or a University he worked for. As someone who has researched this for work, I highly recommend that you keep your use personal and non-commercial. The minute you start to post things on the internet, or charge a price (even if it isn't for profit), you're stepping onto tenuous ground. Also, your use may very well not qualify as fair use or fair dealing because you're using the whole thing. Generally these cover an insignificant portion of the whole. (see below.)

Why do you think Google was getting sued for all the scans they were doing on copyrighted books? You may disagree with the laws, but I'm just giving you a head's up.

And silence doesn't always imply consent. In some cases, yes; in copyright cases you should always side on the side of the holder.

I assume you're mentioning Australia because it is where it was published, right?

"If the book is confirmed as out of print, it can then be copied in full [see below] or part for educational purposes or under fair dealing. You must be sure to make the proper acknowledgements to the author etc. and you must keep records of the advice you received from booksellers and publishers."

http://www.unimelb.edu.au/copyright/information/fastfind/outofprint.html

"if copying text or printed music which is published as an edition of 10 or more pages, you may copy 10 per cent of the total number of pages or one chapter, whichever is the greater."

http://www.unimelb.edu.au/copyright/information/fastfind/fairdealing.html

You have some homework to do before you go full bore with your distribution. Read this:

http://www.unimelb.edu.au/copyright/information/eduse/text.html

Anyway, the forum doesn't allow copyrighted material to be published:

http://www.daltai.com/terms.htm

(Message edited by seánw on October 12, 2009)

(Message edited by seánw on October 12, 2009)

I ndiaidh a chéile a thógtar na caisleáin.

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Daveat168
Member
Username: Daveat168

Post Number: 52
Registered: 08-2009


Posted on Tuesday, October 13, 2009 - 08:11 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Ṡeánw, a ċara,
dıa duıt,
On TYI Munster, a senior poster placed this, which plainly implies that the copyright owners of both the written, and the recorded work here, have no further interest, and have stated such.
This, I accept is 'hear say'.
Viz:>

Re: [TYIMunster] Re: TYI

When the publishers were approached about making copies in 1985 they had no objections and no interest in Dillon's TYI. The last printing of this edition (1984) came out after teaching of Irish had moved from dialect to standard, and from Munster pronunciation to Connacht. It was also when language teaching was moving from a grammar basis to a more 'living language' approach. The publishers continued printing it because they had nothing else and the public still wanted Irish text books. Most TY language books were updated during the 1980's to the new 'living language' approach. Irish was not on the priority list of books to publish, so it wasn't until the early 90's (from memory) that the new TYI book was published. No recording was available during the 80's as the publishers were already looking forward to the new edition which was completely different. Today it is possible to have CDs/DVDs where you can choose between the major dialects. That of course costs more than producing TYI ever did. It is doubtful that Cork Irish would be included, though, as Dunquin eclipses it in the number of speakers. It would be good to have a good course for beginners that included Munster Irish of any sort, as the differences between the Munster dialects are not that great.

Kevin Riley<:

It is plain though, that if the copyright holders have ceased to trade in the copyrighted material, then there cannot be any substantive claim for damages against anyone publishing that which they will not publish.

Slán
Dave.

Mar sın, dá ḃrıġ sın, níl beart níos críonna
'Ná ḃeıṫ go síorruıḋe ag cur preab san ól.

Rıocard Baıréad.

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Seánw
Member
Username: Seánw

Post Number: 178
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Tuesday, October 13, 2009 - 10:03 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Dave,
I am not telling you what to do, just giving you an overview so you are informed. I am not incredibly concerned about the authors (both I found out are dead, RIP), but the publishing companies are more of a concern. Look on the publisher's information page, which probably has the copyright. If it says a publisher, then try writing them. If they are as uninterested as some say, I don't see what the problem is with getting them to give permission. Hey, I'll republish the thing if they give permission! Copyright by no means is an easy topic to wade through. Seachain!

I ndiaidh a chéile a thógtar na caisleáin.

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Daveat168
Member
Username: Daveat168

Post Number: 53
Registered: 08-2009


Posted on Saturday, October 24, 2009 - 07:03 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Sheain, a chara,
Dia Dhuit.
I have written again to the publishers, a much friendlier letter, explaining that the project is 'not for profit' and educational, both true, and even offered them to handle the resulting augmented ebook, but as yet, there is still stony silence.
The lack of interest is deafening.
What more can I do?

Publish and be damned?
Publish and wait for an injunction?
Run away and hide under a stone?
No, that would be cowardice.

Clearly, the potential complainant has no substantial case, as there is no damage done to his situation, but on the contrary, as everything is published exactly as he last published it, it is indeed to his benefit.

Mar sın, dá ḃrıġ sın, níl beart níos críonna
'Ná ḃeıṫ go síorruıḋe ag cur preab san ól.

Rıocard Baıréad.

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Seánw
Member
Username: Seánw

Post Number: 217
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Saturday, October 24, 2009 - 07:56 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Dave,
I'm not a lawyer, and I'm not your lawyer. I was just giving you friendly advice as someone who has a little experience with copyright. You are, of cource, free to make your own choices.

I do, however, recommend you open up new threads when you have a new topic, or continue one started here. This thread is hitting 102(!) pages when pasted into WORD, and the title "Very basic beginner: half deaf, and a bit dyslexic" doesn't quite catch the many roads this thread has gone down.

I ndiaidh a chéile a thógtar na caisleáin.

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Daveat168
Member
Username: Daveat168

Post Number: 54
Registered: 08-2009


Posted on Sunday, October 25, 2009 - 05:47 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Ḃreandáin, a ċara,
dıa duıt,
Working around in TYI Munster, I eventually found 'Irish Made Easy by Seán Ó Cuív:>
http://www.box.net/shared/o94q9rzsfa
This is from Google books and is believed to be public domain.
In it he describes the workings of LS, and it is surprisingly similar to Q+D.
Though maybe there should not be so much surprise, as his aim, and mine were not so dissimilar.
Where we still differ is that I aimed to have comonality with easily input PC and Mac characters, probably better defined by those found on the synthetic keyboard of a mobile phone running Windows Mobile 5+. Viz:
à, á, â, ã, ä, æ, è, é, ê, ë, ì, í, î, ï, ñ, ø, ò, ó, ô, õ, ö, ù, ú, û, ü.
The accented 'y', though cannot be easily represented on a mac, so is omitted in the above list.
So can LS be tweaked to fit the above exception characters.
Can we devise a modern LS?
It means forgetting the 'English vowel sounds, and accepting unquestioningly, the Irish, but that should have been my start point anyway.
Can we put LS in modern dress?

Slán
Dave.

Mar sın, dá ḃrıġ sın, níl beart níos críonna
'Ná ḃeıṫ go síorruıḋe ag cur preab san ól.

Rıocard Baıréad.



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