Hi folks. I am trying to find out the condition of Irish in Mayo- North Mayo specifically, but I'd be interested in hearing how much it is spoken in south Mayo also.

I have the book An Gol agus an Gáire by Seán Ó Ruádhain, and I believe this is south Mayo Irish.

The other thing I need to ask you is what sources do we have to read north Mayo dialect?

Would appreciate any pointers at all. Míle buíochsa daoibh.

I can't really help you with the intricacies of the dialect itself, but as far as the 'condition' of Irish in Mayo is concerned, it's not good. Some may disagree.

Arguably the only remaining 'stronghold' is located in the village of Ceathrú Thaidhg (Carrowteige) in the far northwest of the county. But even there barely half the locals speak it habitually and the population is well under a thousand. Any close look at the DED data from the Census (as well as data from the Scéim Labhairt na Gaeilge/Irish speaking grants) will illustrate this point.

You'd also find Irish spoken in Eachléim (Aughleam) and An Fód Dubh (Blacksod) on the southern bit of the Mullet peninsula.

In south Mayo, Irish is still spoken by a minority of locals in Fionnaithe (Finny). If I recall correctly, it was the only district in the south where both 25%+ of the general local population spoke Irish daily and 10%+ of families with school aged children were receiving the full Irish speaking grant (meaning Irish is the main or only language in the home). This was proposed as the 'minimum requirement' for continued Gaeltacht status by those who carried out the sociolinguistic study of Irish in the Gaeltacht in 2004-2006 or so. Arguably the most extensive, in-depth study of the Gaeltacht ever undertaken. In other words, the current Gaeltacht borders in Mayo (which hasn't been revised in over 50 years!!) are seriously out-of-date. Places like Achill Island and Tuar Mhic Eadaigh etc are not gaeltachtaí in any traditional sense of the word.

The position of native Irish in Mayo is arguably more precarious than even in Cork or Waterford. There's certainly no contiguous districts where Irish is widely spoken (such as in south Conamara with about a dozen districts where Irish is spoken by a majority of inhabitants, or to a lesser extent in northwest Donegal (Gaoth Dobhair, Gort a' Choirce etc) and the gaeltacht west of Dingle in Kerry (Dún Chaoin, Baile na nGall, Feothanach.)

The present state of native gaeltacht Irish in Mayo is a few patches of Irish spoken by a few hundred (or just a few dozen) native speakers physically isolated from one another. That's the sad reality.

(Message edited by Danny2007 on September 10, 2009)

But then again, Danny2007 is renowned for painting the blackest possible picture of the state of Irish (everywhere) based on pseudo-statistics tailored for politicians that wish to undermine funding for the Irish language.

You might prefer to wait for someone with less of a political agenda, preferably someone who actually speaks Irish, and even more preferably someone who has actually been to the area in question. A Thaidhgín? nó duine ar bith eile?

Maith thú a Bhreandáin , tá an ceart agat, Wait on someone who isnt so Negagive

I am not a native speaker, nor a negativist (in fact, I am very optimistic about Irish). One trend, though, that may have affected Mayo is the Celtic Tiger. I think it broke up in some ways the Gaeltachts with the population moving to the cities, and the city dwellers moving to the "suburbs". That would bring Irish to the city, and English to the country. If the number of speakers is low, that might place the language in jeopardy. This is all conjecture, but I was amazed by the sprawl of Galway when I visited it, and the very nice homes in the "suburbs". All the people there seemed to commute into town. I also saw this in greater Dublin as well. But Galway is right next to a big Gaeltacht area, and I spoke with some people who went into Galway to live and work from their Gaeltacht they grew up in. Thankfully they used the language, which is the simplest way to keep it going (and having kids and speaking with them!). This trend may be changing now due to the on-going economic depression.

http://books.dias.ie/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=8_20&products_id=76

http://www.peterkgriffin.com/Muigheo.htm

I know the north Mayo area fairly well. Just because you don't hear Irish spoken doesn't mean people don't know the language. Irish is sprinkled through everyone's English from the coast to the Shannon and probably further east. If "Cigire an Deontais" is around there occurs a remarkable revival of Irish in homes. People who speak English for all the reasons you and I speak English in public can also speak Irish. Whether they may be heard speaking it or not is a matter of degree. My impression is that south of Elly Bay on the Mullet Peninsula will accept the fact that you may wish to speak Irish to them and will make an effort to respond. North of that point you may get a rebuke for speaking Irish.

The area south of Elly Bay -- generally called Eachléim after the village at its centre -- supports three Irish colleges. These indicate an interest and ability in the language.

Of course the style of speech is changing. The last of the monoglot speakers are probably gone although some of the older people in An Fál Mór, Tamhain na hUltaí, (??) Glais, Clochar, An Baile Nua, Turán, An Mullach Rua, and Oiligh itself would be far more fluent in Irish than English.

Because of the Irish colleges the level of education among the youngsters growing up may well be higher than in former generations.

Teaching, nursing, and the Civil Service are the preferred choice of occupation now for those who leave the area and most end up teaching in Gaelscoileanna or working in Irish-speaking offices in the Civil Service.

Eachléim now provides Irish-speakers for the rest of the country where formerly emigration was to the UK, the US and Australia.

One thing about the people of Erris -- they are hard-working, resourceful, and proud of their heritage. They know they have a valuable cultural asset in the Irish language that distinguishes them from others in North Mayo. Given half a chance they would never abandon Irish. The pity is that if they try and speak it in town they'll be told -- as I was -- we're not grant-aided here. We don't have to speak Irish to you. There's animosity on the linguistic border in Ireland! Irish-speakers have become proud and confident.

On the other hand a visit to Ionad Deirbhile in Eachléim is a tonic for the Gaelic soul. You will hear the most beautiful Inis Gé Irish.

As for books: Two by Séamus MacGuidhir (whose daughter runs the Droim Caoin guest house and whose grandchildren run the Irish college in Oiligh)Fánaíocht i gContae Mhaigh Eo and Idir Trá is Talamh; and of course Filíocht Riocaird Bhairéid.

David Copperfield was translated to Irish by Seán Ó Ruadháin who was a renowned writer of Irish from Achill (I think); He wrote Pádraig Mháire Bháin which is a good read for its humour. He also published an essay every month in Feasta on verb + prepositional idioms in Irish. I think they may have been republished in book form. They are certainly a valuable resource.

Pádraig Seoigheach also from Achill wrote a number of books, among them An Mothal sin ort and Deabhal Smid Bréige ann. (??)

That's only Eachléim and Achill. Béal Deirg produced a notable family of Irish speakers who distinguished themselves in every field of endeavour and never forgot their roots in the Gaeltacht. Each one of them promoted the language with success in their adopted part of the country.

There's also Cill Ghallagáin, Ceathrú na gCloch, Greannaí, Ceathrú Thaidhg, Port a' Chlóidh, agus Ros Dubhach. Find accommodation there and listen and you'll learn the most beautiful Irish on earth and pronunciation to die for. Go ndéana Dia trócaire ar Pumps agus Shtanton -- beirt deartháir -- agus an file Pat Linney. Táim ag caoineadh laethanta m'óige agus slua na marbh.

I was in Belmullet for Lá an Logha and it was a delight to meet old friends and hear the language spoken naturally. I could go on ...

quote:

He also published an essay every month in Feasta on verb + prepositional idioms in Irish. I think they may have been republished in book form. They are certainly a valuable resource.

???

http://scoilgaeilge.org/lessons/GLee.htm

nó

http://www.karott.com/gaelic%5Creference%5CIrish_Language_Reference%5CIrish_Idio ms.doc

Breandán,

Why thank you.

quote:

based on pseudo-statistics tailored for politicians that wish to undermine funding for the Irish language.

Wrong. The research in the sociolinguistic report was carried out by fluent speakers (many who are native speakers). People who use Irish daily in their careers and their lives. Including Dr Conchúr Ó Giollagáin from Acadamh na hOllscolaíochta Gaeilge and Seosamh Mac Donnacha. Both are experts in their fields. Mac Donnacha is an authority on language planning in the Gaeltacht and has also studied gaeltacht schools. I would also refer you to the work of Pádraig Ó Riagáin who has carried out numerous Irish sociolinguistic studies and surveys for the better part of FORTY YEARS. These are not people who are seeking to undermine the Irish language. If I've a political agenda that is anti-Irish (as some have claimed), then so do these researchers who use Irish daily at work and at home. That's absurd. The fact I'm not fluent (far from it) doesn't change that. No, it's because it's the reality. And some people just can't accept or acknowledge that without getting personal.

It's like when Reg Hindley came out with his controversial book THE DEATH OF THE IRISH LANGUAGE almost twenty years ago. He was attacked. As a Brit. As a dumb outsider from England. As anti-Irish. Yet he had been carrying out surveys going back to the 1950s! He was able to compare the situation in the late 80s when he went back to observe, interact and research for the book...to how it was decades earlier. That was key in how he concluded that Irish was heading for extinction as an organic, community langage...unless changes were made. That's why the full title was THE DEATH OF THE IRISH LANGUAGE: A QUALIFIED OBITUARY. And when Breandán Ó hEithir arrived at the same conclusion around the year 1990 (namely that there were only about 9,000 habitual native speakes left in the Gaeltacht at that time), his report was suppressed. So was Ó hEithir a Brit too for making similar conclusions to Hindley? Or was it an honest conclusion, not based on a 'political agenda' or a dislike of Irish, but on what he considered to be the reality of the situation on the ground?

For what it's worth, I disagree with both of their estimates. I believe the figure is closer to 20,000 habitual speakers in the Gaeltacht. With many more in the Galltacht.

Breandán,
You are completely off-base to talk about pseudo-statistics designed to undermine funding for Irish. That's an outright lie, Breandán. Did it ever occur to you that the conclusions of the sociolinguistic are based on reality? Namely that Irish is no longer spoken habitually by most residents of the Gaeltacht?

'mayoee' asked for information:

quote:

I am trying to find out the condition of Irish in Mayo- North Mayo specifically, but I'd be interested in hearing how much it is spoken in south Mayo also.

How was my response unreasonable?

Is Irish widely spoken in Mayo? No.
Is Irish spoken habitually by the majority of locals in contiguous districts in Mayo (as it is in south Conamara)? No!

Can anyone seriously claim it is? Are we to believe that Irish speakers in their thousands are feigning ignorance when it comes to the Irish language question in the census? And it's not only these reports and figures that come into play. I've been to gaeltachtaí in Galway, Donegal, Kerry, Mayo and Cork. I've posted before on both the good (such as hearing more Irish than English in Baile na nGall, west Kerry) to the bad (not hearing any ino Acaill or outside of Oideas Gael in Gleann Cholm Chille.) The conclusions of the sociolinguistic report (and many others dealing with the Gaeltacht) were largely in line with my own observations. Sure, as an outsider with little Irish I was bound to hear less than if I was fluent and a local. Of course. But I heard what I heard and in most places, Irish was not audible in the shops, in the pubs, in the streets, on the field...

I never said many people didn't have a knowledge of Irish in the Mayo Gaeltacht, obviously. I said it's not a community language aside from a handful of small villages. That's true.

quote:

preferably someone who actually speaks Irish

Ah, there it is. Unless you're a fluent Gael, you better keep quiet. That's it eh Breandán?

quote:

and even more preferably someone who has actually been to the area in question.

You're really making an ass out of yourself now mate. Which area? The thread is about both north Mayo and south Mayo. Multiple regions. Do you know me? No. You're acting like you do. I've been to more than one gaeltacht in Mayo so keep that in mind next time you make such a claim. You look foolish otherwise.
Ever made it over from Australia yet?

And of course Teifeach is here. Unless it paints a rosy picture, 'wait till someone else comes along'. Better to be unfailingly optimistic than to answer a question as honestly as possible. This is what you have to be aware of, mayoee. Be forewarned.

Thankfully there are Irish speakers (with better Irish than almost everyone who has ever posted on Daltaí) who aren't afraid to tell it like it is. The Gaeltacht is under pressure. We all know that. So why get up in arms when someone answers a relevant question? I'm a 'negativitist' because most Irish people have turned their backs on the language!? That's funny.

Taidhgín,

As always your post is informative and largely optimistic. And I do mean that genuinely. Still...

quote:

I know the north Mayo area fairly well. Just because you don't hear Irish spoken doesn't mean people don't know the language.

True enough. But what good is a language if people who have knowledge of it rarely if ever speak it. Or if they do, keep it confined to the home. That is little more than a private language.

Of course one will hear Irish in a language centre or a language school. Or amongst 'dear old friends' that you know have it.

But someone heading to any of the gaeltachtaí in Mayo to hear Irish spoken in the community (especially a first time visitor, for example) may be disapointed. That's all.

But hey, I'm just a dastardly anglophone with a 'political agenda', right?

Sorry. *Reprogramming now*

"Irish is in grand shape altogether. Lah lah lah. Níor mhór an Béarla a ruaigeadh as saol na hÉireann agus an Ghaeilge a chur i réim ina áit." etc etc

(Message edited by Danny2007 on September 10, 2009)

quote:

The increasing marginalisation of the use of Irish within the social networks of the young is driven to a large extent by the dominance of English within the socialisation processes to which young people are exposed in the contemporary Gaeltacht, particularly by the position of English in the Gaeltacht education system and in the media. This in turn has seriously undermined the effective intergenerational transmission of Irish, even in Gaeltacht areas where Irish-speaking networks are most widespread and inclusive, i.e. those districts in Category A. The survey of young Gaeltacht people demonstrates that this is the case at present, and that the situation will be even more challenging for the next generation of parents. If the productive use of Irish cannot be established on a broader basis than within certain family and limited neighbourhood networks, and if the Gaeltacht education system is unable to establish an Irish language-centred socialisation process within its schools, this study will have unfortunately documented the dynamics presaging the final stages in the lifecycle of the Gaeltacht as an Irish-speaking community.

http://www.pobail.ie/ie/AnGhaeltacht/AnStaidearTeangeolaioch/
http://www.pobail.ie/en/AnGhaeltacht/LinguisticStudyoftheGaeltacht/
- COMPREHENSIVE LINGUISTIC STUDY OF THE USE OF IRISH IN THE GAELTACHT, 2007.
Conchúr Ó Giollagáin, Seosamh Mac Donnacha, Fiona Ní Chualáin, Aoife Ní Shéaghdha, Mary O’Brien.

ACADAMH NA HOLLSCOLAÍOCHTA GAEILGE
NATIONAL UNIVERSITY OF IRELAND, GALWAY
in collaboration with

NATIONAL INSTITUTE FOR REGIONAL AND
SPATIAL ANALYSIS
NATIONAL UNIVERSITY OF IRELAND, MAYNOOTH

Sorry, Danny2007, but I believe the first and most basic step to helping promote a language is to learn it yourself, not to wander around from site to site prophesying its doom. You don't have to be fluent in the language, but making a decent effort to learnt it would show that you are truly interested in Irish and not just another "sideline expert" blindly spouting "facts" about the game.

Even if the numbers themselves were neutral and not selectively presented, your commentary and interpretations are coloured with negative language. You never seem to present any positive alternatives just negative results and interpretations. It is very easy to use negativity to breed negativity; being constructive is a far harder course.

Taidhgín and others here are well aware of the "hard facts". They choose instead to approach the language more positively and help people learn, thus helping to increase the number of actual speakers. This in turn encourages other Irish people (and more foreigners) to take up the language, or to use it more if they already knew it, by showing that there is interest in the language from outside the "Gaeltacht".

You can call me a fool if you like, but I enjoy learning, speaking and teaching Irish far too much to be discouraged or dissuaded by begrudgers or doomsayers, or to let them try to dissuade others. A language is as strong as those who use it, no more no less. It is made stronger by those who speak it encouraging others to learn and speak it as well, not by "knockers" implying to others that it is a waste of time.


PS: I've been to Ireland five times so far and my wife and I are working towards an extended stay in the Gaeltacht in the future. I notice, on the other hand, that you choose not to give any information about who or where you are in your own profile...Hmm, why am I not surprised?

Learn some Irish and you may get a Little respect. Maybe its too hard for you. Carry on as you are and you will continue to annoy and ailienate yourself even moreso if thats at all possible , Faigh saol.

quote:

Learn some Irish and you may get a Little respect. Maybe its too hard for you. Carry on as you are and you will continue to annoy and ailienate yourself even moreso if thats at all possible , Faigh saol.

Learn the language of "f*ck off" - nice! That is really encouraging and helps to promote the language! If you don't speak Irish at the level Teifeach and Breandán do, you are not allowed to have any opinion concerning the Irish language. The language is theirs and they know better how the things are, even though your opinion is based on scientific or scholarly research and theirs is based on what they think is true and they must be right because they love the language. Love can overcome anything! And love = truth! (??????)

Sometimes I think that Irish is more holy than the Holy Father and you can only speak high-ly and favourably of it (or don't speak at all). Otherwise you'll be eaten alive by its preachers. So let it be, Irish is having great, almost everyone knows it, it's strengthening and it was never better (other opinions are politically incorrect, "untrue" and are forbidden here).

Agus mise i nGaeltacht Mhaigh Eo tri/ bliain ó shin bhi/ an Ghaeilge beo mar theanga an phobail i gCeathrú Thaidhg agus sna mBailte Fearainn thart air.

Bhi/ an teanga láidir go leor thart ar Eachléim / Fál Mór.

Ni/l a fhios agam fá Thuar Mhic Chéide ach tá aithne agam ar dhaoine óga a bhfuil an Ghaeilge ó dhúchais acu sa cheantar sin.

If you go to these places with the right attitude you will hear plenty of Irish, and to my ear some of the best Irish in Ireland.

If you go with a negative attitude you won't hear much, same as every other Gaeltacht.

But as always, a fluent speaker will literally hear alot more Irish than someone who does not speak the language.

People have attacked Danny I suppose, but language decline fascinates many people. The thing is that often the academic researcher on language decline cannot see the positives.

The thing is is that the sight is called Daltai/ na Gaeilge - not Daltai/ Meath na Gaeilge.

same message to you Crí ,Learn some Irish and you may get a Little respect. Maybe its too hard for you. Carry on as you are and you will continue to annoy and ailienate yourself even moreso if thats at all possible , Faigh saol.

That's not what I said at all, a Chrí, it is not about how fluent one is; it is more a person's attitude towards the language in general. It is mighty suspicious that someone who claims to be "for" the language yet makes nothing but disparaging statements hasn't made much effort to try to learn it after all this time. (It might also behove you to check out Danny2007's legacy here and across the internet before jumping hastily to his defence, not that you aren't within our rights to do so anyway.)

Danny2007 has once again come out basically saying that "there's no good Irish left there". I am not denying Danny2007's right to an opinion, but it is still my recommendation that people look at a person's background and listen to a wider variety of opinions in order to reach a more balanced appraisal.

As I expected, Taidhgín has helpfully pointed out the hotspots where you can still find the "good stuff". It is a totally different approach to the same "reality" - much more useful to someone wanting to actually go there and learn. Perhaps it is less useful to someone with a mere academic interest in statistics, but language is about people and interpersonal ties, not scientific or scholarly research - those are secondary derivatives, useful tools only if applied correctly.

As Taidhgín has tried to express before, a Gaeltacht is not necessarily a physical, geographical place with wall-to-wall Irish - especially in this day and age. Just because not every house in the street speaks Irish, doesn't mean it's not a Gaeltacht any more. With modern technology, people can and do stay in touch with the language in varying degrees even when there families are separated by great distances, and can use it to meet up when in Dublin or abroad.


What Ggn wrote mirrors what I was writing in the interim:

A person with good social skills can find Irish speakers inside and outside the official Gaeltachtaí. Others less socially adept may blunder through the thickest enclave and not hear a word spoken in their presence.

All communities have social protocols that must be adhered to before a "foreigner" is accepted as "one of the group". It is all a question of attitude, i.e., how you present yourself and how much genuine interest you exhibit.

Chí
As for myself i have read Dannys ramblings on many occassions ,here and on other sites , and its the same old stuff every single time , he,s just looking for a debate on this old well trodden ground , without a hint of optimism or any sign that he is interested in actualy interested in being active in any way. Hang around and you will see. Im not saying all in the Gaeilge garden is rosey , its far from it. But why Concentrate on the Negative. We have lots of negatives and lots of positives ,i would like to see Danny for once telling the Positive side of things , if he wants so called balance. There are way too many people lining up to wreck the language , i would rather discuss the Positive aspects.

The really postive news is that West Belfast and Carn Tóchair in Derry have revived Irish to be community languages in their area's so the Irish language is thriving in. As for Danny2007 painting a black picture of Irish in Mayo most Gaeltacht people will speak English at first to outsiders out of courtesy and some are uncomfortable speaking Irish within earshot of strangers That doesn't mean that no Irish is spoken in an area.

I understand your concern, but maybe Danny2007 is as negative as you are positive. Difficult opinion or even negativity has its place in any discussion. I think that the truth lies somewhere between the overly negative and positive opinion and both are interesting and have value.

I don't know other Danny2007's posts but I think that "Learn some Irish and you may get a Little respect. Maybe its too hard for you. Carry on as you are and you will continue to annoy and ailienate yourself even moreso if thats at all possible , Faigh saol." is just a dirty crack not leading to anything more than hostility. If you have a right to write something like that to Danny2007 or me, Teifeach, I have a right to be negative or whatever you call it. You have more respect to the language than you have to other people.

I'm not interested in Irish because everything is so "rosey" (as you wrote) but because everything is so complicated. I want to learn Irish because I think it's the most beautiful language in the world but I am opened to hear anything more than only praising everything related to it. It's like being a parent who not only hugs a child but also rebukes it when needed.

Very gallant of you to step up to defend Danny, i am neither overly Negative or overly Positive, i am well aware of both. The only thing that leads to hostility is repetitive Negative Numbers posts, you will realise this when you have read it for the umteenth time.
I respect the language and those who work tirelessly to promote it and not those who spend more time criticicising and finding fault than actually geting off their behinds and actually doing something about it.

Wow! Now we're talking. The only voice not represented here is a Co. Mayo resident, right? I heard Irish in Tuam, which isn't too far from Mayo. The lady at the bar said that she picked up a lot of it from serving the people who came in. In fact I heard a lot of Irish. It does depend on your perspective. One may become somewhat fixated on the negative against the evidence of positive results, and overly optimistic to ignore the negative figures. But a realistic viewpoint should clearly be able to see that Irish is in a very good position since circa 1922. Take for instance the mass media availibility, the Gaelscoileanna, the interest in Irish in the north, the changing of the perception from bogtalk to the "bilingual edge". People who are habitually anti-Irish or overly focused on negative figures I now see as the "backwards" ones. It's almost as though their locked in the egg of the mentality during British rule. Always speak t'English. News alert, you've hatched! In many ways also the Welsh and Scottish have hatched. The most positive thing about the whole discussion is not "facts and figures", it is that you have the power to direct your own destiny. I think they call that freedom. No black and tan is going to come hit your gob if you speak your language. That's the difference in my mind. That is the ultimate "good news" of this period of Irish. With that should also come the realization that Irish is in a transition period. Some with the positive viewpoint see this as necessary for the language to be assimilated by the English speakers. It is going to become more spreadout and less concentrated in the Gaeltachtaí. It will, I dare say, take on more English loans. But this is happening because the language has to take on meaning for those people also.

As for polls and surveys, statistics can be deceptive. If interested read "The Art of Deception" by Nicholas Capaldi, and "Stat-Spotting: A Field Guide to Identifying Dubious Data" by Joel Best.

(Message edited by seánw on September 11, 2009)

Nach mór an t-ionadh nach bhfuil ag "lucht dheáscéal na Gaeilge" ariamh ach barúil láidir agus sin an méid, ní féidir leothab argóint fhíorasach a dhéanamh ach ionsaithe pearsanta ar a gcuid céilí comhrá agus seafóid mhaslach ráite acab, daoine gan náire! Maith thú, Danny, déan céard ba cheart dhuit a dhéanamh agus ná tabhair aird dhóibh siúd!

"Wow! Now we're talking. The only voice not represented here is a Co. Mayo resident, right?"

I'm living in the gaeltacht in north Mayo.

Breandán
You made a foolish comment when you said I had never been to 'the area'. Period. I have been to Mayo multiple times and I've been to more than one Gaeltacht in Mayo.

quote:

I believe the first and most basic step to helping promote a language is to learn it yourself, not to wander around from site to site prophesying its doom.

I'm not wandering around from site to site prophesizing it's doom. I don't have a clue who you are but you're way off-base. In fact, I probably spend too much time DEFENDING Irish against people who say "It's a dead language." "It shouldn't get any funding." This is on Irish political forums which don't have a specific language focus, btw.
I answered a question and said Irish isn't widely spoken in south Mayo. That's all! Get a grip. That's not prophesizing doom ffs. Do you have a counterclaim? Do you think that Irish is in fact widely spoken in Mayo?

I am continuing to learn Irish so once again, your claim that I don't do anything to learn is false. It's not my main priority and I've been forthright about that. Why should it be? I moved back from Ireland eleven months ago. But there's more to learning Irish than Daltaí. I've materials of my own in my home. Daltaí is more than just the forum too. There are other resources here and elsewhere. And there are people who have given up posting on Daltaí for Irish learning matters because they couldn't take all the dialect battles and so on. I haven't reached that point, but I definitely read much more than I post. The same with Irishgaelictranslator.com

I'm not learning Irish to PROMOTE it, Breandán. I live thousands of kilometeres away. It's not my fight. My goal is to increase my reading comprehension bit by bit. That's my primary objective. Being able to speak it freely and naturally is secondary because I don't even live in Ireland anymore. I was there for a year and a half in total. I live in western Canada. I don't think it'd be fair for anyone to criticise me for not being fluent yet. If anything, Irish speakers should be pleased that a non-Irish citizen is interested in the language at all! And I have posted about the positives. About hearing more Irish than English during four days in Baile na nGall, Chorca Dhuibhne. Of hearing Irish used by almost everyone (including little kids out playing) on Inis Meáin.

quote:

Even if the numbers themselves were neutral and not selectively presented

Examples? Have you even read the sociolinguistic report? The report was written entirely in Irish. The English version is a much shortened translation. There's more graphs and tables in there than you can shake a stick at. There's no selectivity that I can see.

quote:

I enjoy learning, speaking and teaching Irish far too much to be discouraged or dissuaded by begrudgers or doomsayers, or to let them try to dissuade others. A language is as strong as those who use it, no more no less. It is made stronger by those who speak it encouraging others to learn and speak it as well, not by "knockers" implying to others that it is a waste of time.

Here we go again. I'm not trying to dissaude anyone from learning Irish. You think I spent thousands of €€€ to attend Oideas Gael and travel in the Gaeltacht for kicks? You don't know me and you should stop making assumptions. Learning Irish is not a waste of time. This boils down to the fact that I'm willing to call it like it is. Irish is not widely spoken in the Gaeltacht anymore. That rubs some people the wrong way. If I lied and said "Yeah sure, go anywhere in the Gaeltacht and you'll hear it spoken all around you", you'd probably congratulate me. Some people genuinely don't know what the Gaeltacht is. Perhaps 'mayoee' is one of them. I don't know. I just answered a question as honestly as possible.

Do you consider Conchúr Ó Giollagáin and Seosamh Mac Donnacha doomsayers?

And it'd be nice if you'd provide evidence of 'pseudo-statistics tailored for politicians who wish to undermine funding for Irish'. You keep alluding to it.

quote:

Danny2007 has once again come out basically saying that "there's no good Irish left there"

Wrong again. You're on quite a streak there Breandán. Read the post again if you have to. Indeed, many of the villages I mentioned were also mentioned by Taidhgín. I said they are scattered. Which is true. There are no great expanses of Irish speaking communities in Mayo anymore. Do you have evidence to the contrary?

And I see that you're basically conceding that Irish is pretty much a private language in many areas. 'blundering through the thickest enclave without hearing a word of Irish spoken in their presence'. Is that a sign of a healthy community language?

Hey, if you don't want to consider anything I post 'because of my history', go ahead. But like I've said, you shouldn't disregard the extensive research that has been conducted over the decades on Irish in the Gaeltacht, especially the sociolinguistic study which was published in 2007. It is over 500 pages long! If I'm a doomsayer, then so are all these fluent speakers who are saying largely the same thing. My own experiences traveling in the Gaeltacht multiple times and living in Dún Chaoin for a couple of months are secondary to the conclusions reached by Acadamh na hOllscolaíochta Gaeilge. They just happen to mirror my own conclusions, for the most part.

And let's not forget the census. Which is more likely? Perhaps inflating their ability to speak Irish and how much they use it, or pretending they don't speak Irish at all? These are statistics coming from Irish people themselves. And they show that only 12% of residents in the Mayo gaeltacht speak Irish daily (2006 Census). How is that positive?

Seánw
Do you have any idea when the 'Celtic Tiger' era actually began? Which year? This idea that the Celtic Tiger had a negative impact on the Gaeltacht is laughable, in my opinion. Territory was actually ADDED to the Mayo gaeltacht in 1956 (the last major revision of the Gaeltacht borders). This was done primarily for political purposes and to ingratiate the then Minister responsible with residents. £ for grants and all that. At the same time, all of the Gaeltachtaí in Clare had their status removed. Some say this was done as an attack on de Valera.

The root of the decline goes much further back than the 1990s, Seánw. English was already well known then. On the other hand, the massive expansion of Galway city has definitely had an adverse effect on the Conamara gaeltacht. There's no doubt about that. Have you been to Bearna? Maigh Cuilinn?

quote:

But a realistic viewpoint should clearly be able to see that Irish is in a very good position since circa 1922.

Now this is a classic example of how perspective comes into play.

You mention Irish-medium education. TG4 and so on. These are positives and I always include them when discussing Irish in the country as a whole. (But the thread was about Mayo so I didn't).

But there's the other side of the story too. What has happened since 1922? A lot.

- RTÉ Raidío na Gaeltachta
- TG4
- Official language of the EU
- More urban Gaelscoileanna
- Irish in Northern Ireland: Bóthar Seoighe/Shaw's Road Gaeltacht, Belfast, Cultúrlann McAdam Ó Fiach, Cultúrlann Uí Chanáin, Derry. Carn Tóchair.
- Raidió Fáilte, Raidió Rí-Rá
- Irish blogs
- Oideas Gael and other schools

There are other positives.

But there are also negatives:

- Contraction of the Gaeltacht. Thousands of native speakers emigrated, never to return. There were over 250,000 Irish speakers in the Gaeltacht in 1926. The vast majority of them native speakers, including at least 10,000 monoglots.
- Death of the last generation of monoglots. Ignorance of English isn't something to be applauded per se, but it did make Irish an absolute must for communication.
- Extinction of the gaeltachtaí in Clare, Sligo, Antrim (Glens, Rathlin), Tyrone, Louth, Monaghan, south Armagh, Roscommon.
- Closure of the Irish newspapers Lá Nua and Foinse due to funding issues and low readership figures.
- Heavy English language influence on the younger generation of native speakers and learners. Loss of range and vocab amongst many speakers compared to previous generations.
- Still no Irish Language Act in the North.

It's a mix of good and bad.

quote:

This idea that the Celtic Tiger had a negative impact on the Gaeltacht is laughable, in my opinion.

I didn't necessarily say negative. It depends on your perspective again. I can't speak for the people of the Gaeltacht, so I won't attempt to call it negative or positive. I said it broke them up in some ways dispersing the language throughout the country instead of in enclaves.

quote:

Have you been to Bearna?

I've been to Bearna only for a short period. I am not attempting to say my time in Ireland and the Gaeltachtaí is great. My experiences, though, we're positive and negative. Partly for me was the crushing of my romanticism of Ireland. I went to the Aran Islands and had my preconceptions shattered. The Celtic Tiger brought her electricity and the "American Bar", but I was saddened speaking to the natives (on Inis Mor) about their almost complete displacement from their traditional way of life. It was very hard (and is still), but they're living off of tourism pretty much for many months of the year. This has to affect the status of Irish on that Island as people seek ways to put the food on the table.

quote:

But there are also negatives... It's a mix of good and bad.

I agree, and I think almost everyone was saying there is good and bad. I think you didn't address the principle point of optimism that I cited: freedom. I'll tell you that the loss of Irish is not to me the greatest issue of importance in my mind, but you can say that whatever happens to Irish, the Irish have had the freedom to keep their language or leave it. They're no longer compelled to not speak it. They are in many ways encouraged to speak it. That was my experience in Ireland, and it caused ire to my anti-Irish father-in-law. If it gives him ire, than I know that we're in the right direction. Every person of age can go back to it if they want (that is, not through the schooling system). That is a very powerful and very positive position to be in. And I see people on this board who are in Ireland speaking the language, and speaking with their children, and others with a sincere desire to learn.

quote:

Heavy English language influence on the younger generation of native speakers and learners.

I hate it break to you all. This is going to happen whether you like it or not. Anyone with the training to see will see that Irish is already heavily influenced by Norman-French, which happen to be the previous powerful language to vie for Ireland. The purist Irish only exists in fable-books, right next to other artificial languages. Should I, living in southern California, cry that English is heavily influenced here by Spanish? One of my son's first words was tortilla! That's what happens. It is what people do over periods of time to live with one another and do commerce.

Not to hit on a cliche, but the true negative view is, "we can't". In that case, you've already lost.

quote:

only 12% of residents in the Mayo gaeltacht speak Irish daily

Let us assume for a moment that the statisitics themselves are correct.

In that case, "12 percent of residents in the Mayo gaeltacht speak Irish daily" would be presenting a fact.

Saying "only 12% of residents in the Mayo gaeltacht speak Irish daily" is an embellishment that puts a subjective slant on your statement. This is only one small example of a constant trend in your posts.

Even when data is ostensibly objective, it is still possible to present it subjectively. I simply wished to warn mayoee that he should wait for other opinions and information before taking your highly-subjective negative appraisal at face value.

As a reminder, please keep things civil.

The impulse to reply quickly with taunts and invective to a perceived personal attack can be a strong one, but in the end, it produces little of value, except for closed threads.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled program....

Go raibh maith agaibh,

Caoimhín

Bhuel Mayoee

it is my understanding that the irish in north mayo shares traits with ulster irish - due to the large numbers who were forcibly settled there by cromwellian troops.

I think this shows up more in vocab than grammar - in Achill and Erris anyway.

I know you might be aware of this already, and it doesn't really answer your question, but it might be of use to someone out there.

Cheers- that's a good help everybody.

Just on the link Liam posted up there- is this guy Peter Griffin a native of Mayo do you know? I listened to some of the youtube video, and it def sounds like the mix of Conamara and Donegal Irish I was expecting to hear from mayo irish (north more so) but I was wondering does he take that from the phonetic guide in the Erris book or is it his native language?

I can see where people are coming from, each has their own interpretation of things and I can see why one might think Irish in Mayo is endangered-Mick Lally (Glenroe/Ros na Rún) said himself that where he is from- Tourmakeady- Irish is being less and less spoken and he is greatly saddened by it, as are so many of us.

It is refreshing to hear the good stories from people here who can tell you where to go to hear Irish. I'm going to save up and visit there in a couple of months and see for myself and definitely, I'll have the best possible genuine attitude imaginable, like lots of people here I adore Irish, and I do have some Irish, though not fluent, but if one goes as a learner and listens, asks questions, is friendly, etc. you don't have any problem meeting people who will talk to you/help you.

Seanw- thanks for posting the two links for 'Conas a rá'.
I took a look at them, and the first one seems to be Munster Irish influenced.. is the second one the Mayo Irish maybe?

Many thanks

Everyone should focus on morale. If you liken it to a struggle, what would the troops think if they woke up everyday to "You're losing ... You put up a good fight, now pack your bags ... You have just 12% of your forces remaining ... Comrades are defecting left and right ... Etc"? I can tell you. They would lose. Building morale is not lying or building a false reality, but it is about taking the good things and focusing on them to produce further good results (a feedback loop of good). The negative facts should not be about focusing on them in themselves, but mostly to learn what NOT to do. Again, just imagine if you confessed to your priest a sin, and he replied, "You're pretty much lost, my son." No, the most admired priests are those that build up sinners' desires to be better. You're not lost, you're in the confessional! The same can be said about any situation we care about. Struggles are not about the individual battles, but the overall "war". (The stats don't matter to the morale, just to the formulation of the strategy to win.) So instead Danny could have said:

"Irish is strong in the village of Ceathrú Thaidhg (Carrowteige) in the far northwest of the county. In south Mayo, Irish is spoken by some in Fionnaithe (Finny). 25%+ of the general local population spoke Irish daily and 10%+ of families with school aged children had Irish as their main or only language in the home."

This is just an example of how your sentences were formulated with a preconceived opinion for the reader to adopt, and why you were disagreed with. They could be reformulated and still deliver the same information, just with a different preconceived opinion and a different result to morale. Breandán skillfully pointed out the use of the word "only" which shows that you think 12% isn't good enough. This may be your thought, but then don't be flustered when someone calls you on it.


[I wholeheartedly apologize for the war analogy, but I thought it fit pretty well. ]

That's a fair point. But to me, the whole concept of the 'Gaeltacht' was about recognising areas where Irish is widely spoken. To some, looking at the census data and reading that [only] 12% of residents in the Mayo Gaeltacht spoke Irish could come as a great surprise to them. That's a massive drop from 1926 or even 1956. That's why a revision of the borders is long overdue.

But I take your point about how I constructed my sentences.

quote:

I simply wished to warn mayoee that he should wait for other opinions and information before taking your highly-subjective negative appraisal at face value.

No, you wished to do much more than that. You wanted to have a go at me as well. You couldn't resist. That's why you stated:

quote:

You might prefer to wait for someone with less of a political agenda, preferably someone who actually speaks Irish, and even more preferably someone who has actually been to the area in question.

You talk about putting a slant on things Breandán. Making claims which aren't true. (that I don't speak any Irish, that I've never been to the Mayo gaeltacht. Both false.)

So are you choosing to back down from your earlier statements about 'pseudo statistics that are tailored for politicians who wish to undermine funding for Irish'. Where are these statistics to be found Breandán? What's the political agenda? Where's the conspiracy?

Do you consider Conchúr Ó Giollagáin and Seosamh Mac Donnacha doomsayers?

Is Irish widely spoken in the Mayo 'gaeltacht', in your opinion?

Seánw

quote:

freedom. I'll tell you that the loss of Irish is not to me the greatest issue of importance in my mind, but you can say that whatever happens to Irish, the Irish have had the freedom to keep their language or leave it. They're no longer compelled to not speak it. They are in many ways encouraged to speak it.

Agree 100%. But I'll tell you, Irish is under no threat of being lost, in my opinion. I believe there will always be fluent speakers. Families where Irish is the language of the home. Irish speaking networks, both physical and virtual. What's under threat is the Gaeltacht. And without the Gaeltacht, Irish becomes 'less than'. A language without a heartland is no longer a full language, to me. Some will say that it ultimately doesn't matter if the Gaeltacht (as traditionally defined) dies. Some say the future is urban and virtual/online gaeltachtaí. Time will tell.

On the issue of pessimism vs optimism.

Is Feargal Ó Béarra a sellout for writing the following:
*Full essay here:*
http://www.unilang.org/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=24215&start=0

quote:

In most cases, except in the case of contemporary Irish, as I hope to show in this paper, language change is a fairly natural and unconscious development which forms an essential part of the life cycle of any language.

While Irish may have become more popular in the last few years, the linguistic undercurrent which permeates much of this popularity points to – in my opinion – the demise of the language as we know it. There is a linguistic dichotomy in Ireland which we are unwilling to face up to. What we fail to understand in Ireland is that a threatened language cannot survive if, on the one hand, Irish is no more than a commodity for those who have the luxury of speaking the prestige language as their first language, while on the other, the Gaeltacht – the community which supports the first language of the child – continues to die.

People point to the growth of Gaelscoileanna, TG4, etc., but I always ask myself where the tens of thousands of children who have passed through the Gaelscoileanna system since the early 1970s have disappeared.

quote:

Much of what passes for Irish language broadcasting on TG4 and RTÉ is presented by non-native speakers who insist on pronouncing Irish with English phonology, English syntax and idiomatic conventions. The two best-known are Hector and Manchán, two of TG4’s most popular ‘stars’. However, the killer of all this is that people keep saying that they love these programmes because they can follow the Irish. That speaks volumes. If the truth be told, if these people were to speak English the way they speak Irish, they would be ridiculed and severely condemned.

quote:

My comments are informed by the experience of the last 20-25 years, as someone who grew up in the Cois Fharraige Gaeltacht in south Conamara, and who has seen the language retreat further and further westwards and inwards as the Gaeltacht continues to dwindle. In these few years, I have also seen the last remaining pockets of Gaeltacht in areas such as Bearna, Na Forbacha, Mionlach, Leamhchoill, and Maigh Cuilinn all but disappear, never to return.

There are few things in Ireland as complicated or as controversial as the language question. We agree on very little.

quote:

Feargal Ó Béarra, a native of the Cois Fharraige Gaeltacht in the west of Ireland, holds a Doctorate in Old- and Middle Irish language and literature from the National University of Ireland.

His main research interests are Middle Irish (palaeography, textual transmission, lexicon) and Modern Irish (historical development, creolization, stagnation and innovation).

He is officially accredited with Foras na Gaeilge, the Irish Language Board, as a translator (Irish > English, English > Irish).

http://cdnirish.concordia.ca/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=15

(Message edited by Danny2007 on September 11, 2009)

(Message edited by Danny2007 on September 11, 2009)

quote:

But I take your point about how I constructed my sentences.

quote:
I simply wished to warn mayoee that he should wait for other opinions and information before taking your highly-subjective negative appraisal at face value.

No, you wished to do much more than that. You wanted to have a go at me as well. You couldn't resist. That's why you stated:

quote:
You might prefer to wait for someone with less of a political agenda, preferably someone who actually speaks Irish, and even more preferably someone who has actually been to the area in question.

Okay, Okay, Danny2007, guilty as charged. I had hoped that the wink would indicate that I was tongue in cheek and having a dig, but I clearly misjudged it. I apologise.

Féargal Ó Béarra has presented a strong case but is mostly verbal. It does go overboard in places "stinks of English" (probably itself a back translation of tá sé faoi anáil an Bhéarla. or some such (?)).

Since my own preference is for natural Irish over standard or anglicized Irish and he is a native speaker in all senses (of my preferred dialect, no less), I can see where he is coming from and understand his stance, although I do feel he has overpresented his case in places. I don't think overstatement (my own case included) helps anybody.

If it had been peppered with "statisitics", however, I would be much more suspicious and really felt he was overdoing it. I think the numbers on their own are quite stark enough without any verbal embellishments. And the verbal arguments are likewise compelling enough without supercharging them with numbers.

Perhaps therein lies part of the problem. The combination of statisitcs and strong subjective statements results in overkill and can sometimes backfire. People tend just to switch off - or to go on the defensive.

Mayoee, no He isn't a native speaker.I think he got his Irish from the book "The Irish of Erris Co.Mayo". If you want to hear the real deal, the Inis Gé Irish than listen to http://www.rte.ie/podcasts/2008/pc/pod-v-180208-15m07s-igceartlarnandaoine.mp3 .The speaker is John "The Admiral" Ó Maolfhabhail.If you want to hear more, listen to the podcasts on this discussion http://www.daltai.com/discus/messages/13510/42976.html?1247477872 (the first link).I recommend "Mary John Tom".

Carrowteige (Ceathrú Thaidhg) is the strongest Irish speaking area in Mayo I think it is the only area in the Mayo Geltacht where Irish is still spoken by a lot of people in the community and its in a grade B Gaeltacht area.

Here are some things I know about the Mayo dialect:
They say ''Sasanaí'' for England, which is the same in Southwestern Donegal. Gleann Cholm Cille and Teelin areas. On Acaill island they say or said ''bomaite'' or móiméad for ''minute''. The Mayo dialect is like a mixture of Connemara and Donegal Irish. ''Maith'' is prononced MY which is the same in Donegal.

Cén fáth a bfhuil sé seo ardán Gaeilge 's tá tada scríofa asti? Níl duine ar bith ar an ngréasán seachas amháin 'cultural terrosists' (tá aithne a't ar a leithéid, geansaí Árainn, fód móna sa lámh, dúidín sa gob agus an chuma gruama go buan ar aghaidh acu) nó daoine atá chomh i gcoinne an teanga cé go bfhuil siad ag iarraidh an t-oileáin go h-iomlán agus Seán Bán Breathnach léi a phléascú suas! Cá bfhuil na gnáth daoine?? Ba chóir don Gaeilge a bheith píosa craic? As sin a bfhuairamar ár gcuid ciall greann. Sea, tá an Gaeilge i dtrioblóid, is amhlaidh tá sí ag fuair bás ar feadh 400 bhliain anuas, ach ní chuidíonn argóintí le tada. An bfhuil aon duine anseo ón nGaeltacht i dtuaisceart Mhaigh Eo nó bfhéidir i ndeisceart Mhaigh Eo ach an oiread. Is Ros Comáineach é mise ó dhúchas ach táim lonnaithe in iarthar Co Shligigh agus tá a fhios a'm gur raibh an nGaeilge mar a labhraíodh i ndeisceart Ros Comáin níos cosúil le Meáin Gaeilge agus le Tuar Mhic Éadaigh, agus go raibh an chainúint i Sligeach Gaeilge Breifne, níos cosúil le Gaeilge Iorras maidir leis an fhoclóir ('cadé' agus 'amaharc', bfhéidir). An mbéadh aon duine in ann cabhairt thabhairt dom faoi?