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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2009 (September-October) » Archive through September 08, 2009 » Láithreach Coibhneasta (present comparative) « Previous Next »

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Linda_kathleen
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Username: Linda_kathleen

Post Number: 56
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Wednesday, August 26, 2009 - 12:12 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

What is the present comparative (Láithreach Coibhneasta) form of a verb? I encountered it when I looked up atá on An Foclóir Beag. My textbook doesn't mention it. Is it a tense, a mood, or what?

I'm trying to understand the following sentence:
Cá mhéad focal ar bháisteach atá againn?
I'm pretty sure it means 'how many words do we have for rain?', but I don't quite understand the function of atá in it.

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Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg
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Username: Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg

Post Number: 708
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Wednesday, August 26, 2009 - 12:31 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I think you've mistranslated coibhneasta there. It means "relative", as in the form of a verb used in a relative clause. ("Comparative" would generally be translated as comparáideach.) This sort of interrogative sentence requires "fronting" of the topic, and a common way to accomplish that in Irish is through use of a relative clause. See the section on interrogatives in Lars' grammar for more details.

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Lars
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Username: Lars

Post Number: 413
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Wednesday, August 26, 2009 - 02:08 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

It's no tense nor mood, just a different form of present tense.
coibhneasta = relative.

Cá mhéad focal ar bháisteach atá againn?
lit. Which amount of words on rain that-are at-us?

Lars

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Seánw
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Username: Seánw

Post Number: 42
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Wednesday, August 26, 2009 - 05:19 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

It is a relative form of the verb tá (atá = a + tá).

Láithreach Coibhneasta = Present Relative

(Message edited by seánw on August 26, 2009)

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Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg
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Username: Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg

Post Number: 709
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Wednesday, August 26, 2009 - 05:46 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Although the meaning is clear enough in an Irish context, it's rather confusing from a crosslinguistic point of view, since "relative present" more commonly refers to a tense that expresses an action which is simultaneous relative to another action. For instance, "Living in Ireland, how many words do we have for rain?" "Living in Ireland" is simultaneous to "we have words", and this would be the case even if the main clause were in the past tense. In Irish, the relative present in this sense is more often expressed with a verbal noun.

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Seánw
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Username: Seánw

Post Number: 43
Registered: 07-2009


Posted on Wednesday, August 26, 2009 - 08:07 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I have found the Irish relative to be very unique in my linguistic studies. I'm still wrapping my understanding around it. It really needs to be classed in its own class (= it is not the same as the English "that" or "which"). If the sentences are broken down literally, many times they don't seem to make complete sense. Much of their understanding is conveyed idiomatically. In my mind this is one of the finer points of Irish grammar to master.

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Linda_kathleen
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Username: Linda_kathleen

Post Number: 61
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Saturday, August 29, 2009 - 03:55 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

I think you've mistranslated coibhneasta there. It means "relative", as in the form of a verb used in a relative clause.

You're right. In future, I'll pay more attention to all the dictionary definitions.

Now that we've established that, and since atá seems to show up in every second sentence (OK, that's an exaggeration), I have to start learning where the relative form is needed and where it's not. Let's start with our earlier sentence: How many words for rain do we have?

If I translated that as Cá mhéad focal ar bháisteach againn?, would that cover all the words in the English sentence, but just not sound Irish? To put it another way, do you need atá in order to make the sentence mean 'do we have'? Does the answer apply to all instances of 'do we have'? Can you think of examples of 'do we have' where atá is not required, so that I might get a sense of how they differ?

PS: I'm not trying to find ways to avoid the present relative because it's just too much trouble. If it is always required, I'll just memorize that and be done with it. But if it's not, I've got to understand when to put it in -- when I'm going from English to Irish -- and when not to.

Thanks for understanding.

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Breandán
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Username: Breandán

Post Number: 289
Registered: 12-2008


Posted on Saturday, August 29, 2009 - 04:23 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

If I translated that as Cá mhéad focal ar bháisteach againn?, would that cover all the words in the English sentence, but just not sound Irish? To put it another way, do you need atá in order to make the sentence mean 'do we have'? Does the answer apply to all instances of 'do we have'? Can you think of examples of 'do we have' where atá is not required, so that I might get a sense of how they differ?



Yes, Linda, you are correct - atá can be (and often is) omitted.

O'Siadhail has:

Cén aois atá Tomás? >> Cén aois Tomás? "How old is Tomás?"
Is iomaí teach atá péinteáilte aige. >> Is iomaí teach péinteáilte aige. "He has painted many houses." (literally "'Tis many a house he has painted.")
Diabhail peann ná páipéar atá i mo sheomrasa. >> Diabhail peann ná páipéar i mo sheomrasa. "There's no pen or paper in my room?"
Diabhail a fhios agam. "I have no idea."

Sometimes you need to restate the subject as an object:
Cén t-achar atá tú anseo? >> Cén t-achar anseo thú? "How long have you been here?"
Cén t-am atá sé? >> Cén t-am é? "What time is it?"



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