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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2009 (September-October) » Archive through September 08, 2009 » Copula - 'Indentification Sentences' « Previous Next »

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James_murphy
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Username: James_murphy

Post Number: 328
Registered: 11-2005


Posted on Tuesday, August 25, 2009 - 07:30 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I've been having some difficulty fully grasping 'identification sentences' and the main reason is simply that I've been exposed to conflicting information about it.
I'm aware that the rule in modern Irish is to put the subject before the predicate but in "Gnás na Gaedhilge" (page 160) it's exactly the opposite:

"Fé mar a dubhradh cheana i dtaobh abairtí de shaghas 'Is fear Tadhg', cuirtear an fhaisnéis, .i. focal an eólais do thabhairt, i n-aice le h-'is' i gcomhnuidhe. Ach, nuair is ainm cinnte an fhaisnéis, ní foláir i gcomhnuidhe forainm ar aon insgne agus ar aon uimhir leis an bhocal faisnéise do chur idir 'is' agus an focal faisnéise féin .i. focal an eólais do thabhairt.
Mar seo, féach :

Is é Seán Ó Néill fear an tighe.
Is freagra an abairt sin ar an gceist "Cé hé fear an tighe?"
Is é fear an tighe Seán Ó Néill.
Is freagra sin ar an gceist "Cé hé Seán Ó Néill?"
Is é an leabhar dubh leabhar Phádraig.
Is freagra é sin ar an gceist "Ciaca leabhar leabhar Phádraig?"
Is é leabhar Phádraig an leabhar dubh.
Is freagra é sin ar an gceist "Ciaca leabhar an leabhar dubh?"
.........
I bhfoclaibh den tsórt so: "Is é seo Seán Ó Néill" agus "Is é Seán Ó Néill é seo", adeirtear gur freagra ar an gceist "Ciaca de sna fearaibh seo Seán Ó Néill?" "Is é seo Seán Ó Néill", agus gur freagra ar an gceist "Cé hé seo?" "Is é Seán Ó Néill é seo". Ach is gnáth "Is é seo Seán Ó Néill" do thabhairt mar fhreagra ar an gceist "Cé hé seo?" leis."



I assume that the guidelines given in "Gnás na Gaedhilge" (1940) are no longer current.

Is that the case?
If it is does anyone have an idea when the change came about?
Should I disregard "Gnás na Gaedhilge" completely on this?

Séamus Ó Murċaḋa

Inis fá réim i gcéin san Iarṫar tá
Dá ngoirid luċt léiġinn Tír Éireann fialṁar cáil

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 3155
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Tuesday, August 25, 2009 - 08:05 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

These sentences look right to me. I don't think the rules have changed.

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Taidhgín
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Username: Taidhgín

Post Number: 452
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Wednesday, August 26, 2009 - 03:57 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Tabhair cúpla sampla de do cheapadóireacht féin, James. Is dóigh liom gur féidir an bhéim a athrú ó fhocal go focal ag brath ar an áit a gcuirfeá san abairt é.

Is é Seán an peileadóir is fearr. (Tá an bhéim ar Sheán.)
Is é an peileadóir is fearr ná Seán.
Is peileadóir cliste é Seán.
Is é Seán an peileadóir is cliste [dá bhfuil] ar an bpáirc.
Is tosaí é. Ní cúlaí ná cúl báire é.

Tá daoine nach maith leo an "ná" sin. Níl a fhios agamsa cén fáth. Bíonn sé úsáideach ar uairibh.

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Abigail
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Username: Abigail

Post Number: 1122
Registered: 06-2006


Posted on Wednesday, August 26, 2009 - 06:32 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Tá na habairtí úd uilig i gceart. Ní hionann abairt chopaile agus abairt ghnáthbhriathair maidir le hord na bhfocal eile.

Is cóir an t-ord céanna san abairt chopaile is a bheadh sa gceist chopaileach a bhfhreagródh sí di - is é sin, más é "Seán Ó Néill" a bheadh ar eireaball na ceiste, bíodh sé ar eireaball na habairte deimhnithe chomh maith.

Tá fáilte roimh chuile cheartú!

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Lars
Member
Username: Lars

Post Number: 412
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Wednesday, August 26, 2009 - 07:53 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

I'm aware that the rule in modern Irish is to put the subject before the predicate


Why do you think so?
Usual word order:
copail - (fofhaisnéis) - faisnéis - ainmní
But sometimes:
copail - (fofhaisnéis) - ainmní - faisnéis

According to Graiméar Gaeilge na mB. Críostaí
Is é fear an tighe Seán Ó Néill
would be rather:
Is é Seán Ó Néill fear an tí
(16.39: "Is gnách áfach ainmneacha dílse a thabhairt chun tosaigh cibé acu faisnéis nó ainmní iad")

Lars

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James_murphy
Member
Username: James_murphy

Post Number: 329
Registered: 11-2005


Posted on Wednesday, August 26, 2009 - 03:52 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Thank you all for your advice on this. I feel a bit stupid especially as I've asked about it here before :)
quote:

Is dóigh liom gur féidir an bhéim a athrú ó fhocal go focal ag brath ar an áit a gcuirfeá san abairt é.


Tuigtear dom go gcuirtear an béim ar an gcéad ainmfhocal/an fhaisnéis i n-abairt aicme ach cuireann leabhair nua-aimseartha (m.sh. "Cruinnscríobh na Gaeilge") i n-iúl dom go ndéantar a mhalairt i gcás abairte ionannais:-
CopailFofhaisnéisAinmnidheFaisnéis
Iséleabhar Phádraigan leabhar dubh

De réir leithéidí "Gnás na Gaedhilge" ámhthach, cuirtear an fhaisnéis roimh an t-ainmnidhe i n-abairt ionannais mar aon le habairt aicme.
Dá bharr sin níor mhór an abairt thuas a scríobh mar:-
CopailFofhaisnéisFaisnéisAinmnidhe
Iséan leabhar dubhleabhar Phádraig

quote:

más é "Seán Ó Néill" a bheadh ar eireaball na ceiste, bíodh sé ar eireaball na habairte deimhnithe chomh maith.


Is comhairle mhaith í sin. Cuimhneochad í.
quote:

According to Graiméar Gaeilge na mB. Críostaí
Is é fear an tighe Seán Ó Néill
would be rather:
Is é Seán Ó Néill fear an tí
(16.39: "Is gnách áfach ainmneacha dílse a thabhairt chun tosaigh cibé acu faisnéis nó ainmní iad")


I've read about this too. So "Is é fear an tighe Seán Ó Néill", which seemed fine in 1940, would never be used today?

Séamus Ó Murċaḋa

Inis fá réim i gcéin san Iarṫar tá
Dá ngoirid luċt léiġinn Tír Éireann fialṁar cáil

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Abigail
Member
Username: Abigail

Post Number: 1124
Registered: 06-2006


Posted on Thursday, August 27, 2009 - 05:13 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Tá sé ann i gcónaí; chuala mise é ag an Oireachtas arú anuraidh (bíodh is nárbh é aon Seán Ó Néill ab fhear a' tí dúinn an uair sin, ach Meaití Jo Shéamuis.)

Ní deireann na Bráithre maithe ach go mba ghnách an nós eile.

Tá fáilte roimh chuile cheartú!

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James_murphy
Member
Username: James_murphy

Post Number: 330
Registered: 11-2005


Posted on Thursday, August 27, 2009 - 06:28 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

An bhfuilim ar lorg riaghlacha cruinne áit ná fuil siad ann?


I n-alt 17.3 de "Cruinnscríobh na Gaeilge", ag tagairt d'aibirtí ionannais, gheibhtear é seo:
An ChopailAn ForainmAn tAinmníAn Fhaisnéis

An nós é, nó riaghal i gcóir caighdeán liteartha, seachas riaghal docht ginearálta i gcomhair abairtí ionannais atá ann?

Séamus Ó Murċaḋa

Inis fá réim i gcéin san Iarṫar tá
Dá ngoirid luċt léiġinn Tír Éireann fialṁar cáil

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 8745
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Friday, August 28, 2009 - 10:51 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Níl riail gan eisceacht!

Pé scéal é, ní mhaíonn CnaG go bhfuil sé uileghabhálach.
Cúrsa atá ann, ach is rud ainrialach teanga bheo.

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Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 8746
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Friday, August 28, 2009 - 12:14 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Ón réamhrá:

quote:

Is é atá i gceist leis an leabhar seo iarracht ar fhreastal ar riachtanais fhoghlaimeoirí tríú leibhéal agus fhoghlaimeoirí eile sa mhórphobal ar bhealach praiticiúil. Níl mé á mhaíomh gur téacs cuimsitheach tagartha é seo. Ní hin an aidhm atá fúm. Níorbh fhiú don saineolaí dul ar lorg
eolais faoi phointe casta gramadaí sa saothar seo, óir theastaigh uaim a oiread den chastacht sin agus ab fhéidir liom a sheachaint.


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Lars
Member
Username: Lars

Post Number: 414
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Friday, August 28, 2009 - 01:33 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

hmmm ...
Dúirt an Murchadhach i gCruinnscríobh na G., 17.3.3:
quote:

San abairt ionannais, bíonn an t-ainmní roimh an bhfaisnéis.


I'd say, that "rule" is simply wrong (because it is too simplified).
OK, all examples there in 17.3.1 are right.
Because all subjects there are either proper names or they contain a demonstrative adjective. So, of course, they should come first.
Except one subject: "na buachaillí".
But here the predicate is rather long, containing a comparative direct relative copula clause (i.e.: "na mic léinn is fearr"), so I'd guess everyone would put it at the end of the sentence.
quote:

An Chopail An Forainm An tAinmní An Fhaisnéis
Is é Seán an Gairda áitiúil
Is í Bríd an múinteoir bunscoile
Cáit an múinteoir ranga
hiad na buachaillí na mic léinn is fearr
Nach é Seosamh an príomhoide?
Nach é Bertie Ahern an Taoiseach?
An í an bhean sin an bainisteoir?
An iad na cailíní sin na ceoltóirí a luaigh tú?


Why no simple examples with two normal nouns? I guess, he himself wouldn't be sásta lena eagar i gcás sin. :-)

In
An Chopail An Forainm An tAinmfhocal An tAinmfhocal eile
Is iad na buachaillí na mic léinn

you can't tell what's subject or what's predicate without any further context. But usually the last is the subject (an t-ainmní).

Lars

(Message edited by Lars on August 28, 2009)

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Lars
Member
Username: Lars

Post Number: 415
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Friday, August 28, 2009 - 02:12 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

... and furthermore you can't say:
An Chopail An Forainm An tAinmní An Fhaisnéis
Is iad na buachaillí na mic léinn sin
Is é an buachaill tusa

But you must use:
An Chopail An Forainm An Fhaisnéis An tAinmní
Is iad na mic léinn sin na buachaillí
Is - tusa an buachaill

Lars

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James_murphy
Member
Username: James_murphy

Post Number: 331
Registered: 11-2005


Posted on Friday, August 28, 2009 - 07:53 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I see. Thank you both for trying to help me get this through my thick skull :)
I certainly have a better understanding of this issue now than I did at the start of this.

If Mac Murchaidh was oversimplifying with the ainmnidhe-faisnéis "rule" perhaps the writers of older courses and grammers were guilty of the same thing with their faisnéis-ainmnidhe "rule".

Séamus Ó Murċaḋa

Inis fá réim i gcéin san Iarṫar tá
Dá ngoirid luċt léiġinn Tír Éireann fialṁar cáil

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Lars
Member
Username: Lars

Post Number: 416
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Saturday, August 29, 2009 - 05:18 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

If Mac Murchaidh was oversimplifying with the ainmnidhe-faisnéis "rule" perhaps the writers of older courses and grammers were guilty of the same thing with their faisnéis-ainmnidhe "rule".


Yes. So it is.

Dála an scéil: Here's a little story about word worder in copula sentences:
http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/~oduibhin/leigh/is.txt

Lars



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