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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2009 (September-October) » Archive through September 08, 2009 » Mapáil vs mapáil « Previous Next »

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Do_chinniúint
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Username: Do_chinniúint

Post Number: 405
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Thursday, August 20, 2009 - 03:54 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I found two separate listings in FBG for the word "mapáil."

mapáil, v.t. (pres. -álann; vn. ~ f, gs. -ál). Map.

mapáil, v.t. (pres. -álann; vn. ~ f, gs. -ál). Mop.

Mapáil. Tomás De Bhaldraithe Editor (Ed.), Foclóir Gaeilge-Béarla (p.831). (2005). Baile Átha Cliath: An Gum.

Is it very common? I couldn't find this word in my other dictionay, but then to be honest, my other dictionary is an older dictionary. If this is a new word, then it is possible it never made it to that edition.

I have noticed that -áil is often added to English words to create new English/Irish verbs. Is this just another case?

Is this a regional thing?

I can understand "to map something." But I am not certain about "to mop." I think this is a bit of a stretch. Or am I wrong here?

Does anyone here use it for "to mop?"

Is -áil going to be the trend for adding new verbs, especially English verbs, to the language?

"If there's something wrong, those who have the ability to take action, have the responsibility to take action." Nicholas Cage (Ben Gates) National Treasure

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Ingeborg
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Username: Ingeborg

Post Number: 96
Registered: 03-2008


Posted on Thursday, August 20, 2009 - 04:15 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

If I remember it rightly, Lars Kabel wrote in his Kauderwelsch, Irisch-Gälisch Wort für Wort, that, if you don't know a verb in Irish, you may say táim ag (english verb)áil, and you will be understood.

Ich tue believen, daß, wenn er so auf Deutsch speaken will, alle das für sehr albern keepen.

But it my be a practical solution, if your language is still broken.

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Teifeach
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Username: Teifeach

Post Number: 124
Registered: 03-2009
Posted on Thursday, August 20, 2009 - 04:58 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Broken, Whats broken about it , ? You would be about as Understood using " tá mé ag Cleanáil ,as i would be if i said in German " Vot is ur name ?

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 8701
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Thursday, August 20, 2009 - 05:07 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

mapa [ainmfhocal firinscneach den cheathrú díochlaonadh]
léiriú i bhfoirm cairte ar an domhan nó ar chuid de.
mapa [ainmfhocal firinscneach den cheathrú díochlaonadh]
píosaí de spúinse nó de chadás greamaithe ar bharr bata le hurláir a ghlanadh; mothall, ceann (mapa gruaige).

Both are loan words, and so the verbs from them use -áil.

Ingeborg, hast wohl nie etwas gemailt oder downgeloadet, was?

Teifeach, sílim go raibh sé i gceist ag Ingeborg gur bealach amach d'fhoghlaimeoirí le Gaeilge lag, seachas go bhfuil an Ghaeilge í féin briste.

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Teifeach
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Username: Teifeach

Post Number: 125
Registered: 03-2009
Posted on Thursday, August 20, 2009 - 05:22 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

is dócha go raibh , gabh mo leithscéal

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Do_chinniúint
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Username: Do_chinniúint

Post Number: 406
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Thursday, August 20, 2009 - 05:58 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Aonghus,

Does this only apply to loan words from another language?

Or can this be done with any noun from Irish also? For example, if I wanted to be poetic and say something like "I penned the bloody word" instead of "I wrote the bloody word?"

Could I say something like:

Peannálaim an focal fuilteach.

I know this wouldn't be normal, but would it be OK?

"If there's something wrong, those who have the ability to take action, have the responsibility to take action." Nicholas Cage (Ben Gates) National Treasure

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Brídmhór
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Username: Brídmhór

Post Number: 38
Registered: 04-2009


Posted on Thursday, August 20, 2009 - 06:08 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

to mop/to map = ag mapáil
You will know the word from the context. If one says "tá mé ag mapáil an urlár" you know "mapping the floor" is not meant. They are not "made-up" words.

Sometimes English words are made into Irish words by adding "áil". Especially in Conamara I hear. :-)
But usually only for words that are not used often in Irish. One wouldn't use "cleanáil" when "ag glanadh" is simplier. I am not recommending it.

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Lars
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Username: Lars

Post Number: 410
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Thursday, August 20, 2009 - 06:11 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Ich tue believen, daß, wenn er so auf Deutsch speaken will, alle das für sehr albern keepen.


Bheadh sin "fíor-threndyáilte" agus "an-chooláilte", ar a laghad do na daoine fógraíochta agus d'amadáin eile.
Creid é nó ná creid é.

Lars

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Do_chinniúint
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Username: Do_chinniúint

Post Number: 407
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Thursday, August 20, 2009 - 06:36 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

sorry...

I wrote "peannálaim" when I should have wrote "pheannálaim."

Not that this really helps the situation. ;-)

"If there's something wrong, those who have the ability to take action, have the responsibility to take action." Nicholas Cage (Ben Gates) National Treasure

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Do_chinniúint
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Username: Do_chinniúint

Post Number: 408
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Thursday, August 20, 2009 - 08:12 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

The -áil ending is stange to me.

Is there a reason for adding -áil when attempting to create a hybrid between English and Irish words.

Is this some Irish form of Pig Latin? LOL

"If there's something wrong, those who have the ability to take action, have the responsibility to take action." Nicholas Cage (Ben Gates) National Treasure

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Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg
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Username: Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg

Post Number: 700
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Thursday, August 20, 2009 - 09:09 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

It's in no way unusual for a language to have a default affix for deriving verbs from foreign words. Cf. German -ieren, Spanish -ear, Polish -ować, etc.

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Do_chinniúint
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Username: Do_chinniúint

Post Number: 409
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Thursday, August 20, 2009 - 10:02 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Now I am wondering if there is a history of -áil being used for foreign words, or is it a modern construction with the coming of the CO?

"If there's something wrong, those who have the ability to take action, have the responsibility to take action." Nicholas Cage (Ben Gates) National Treasure

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Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg
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Username: Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg

Post Number: 701
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Thursday, August 20, 2009 - 11:41 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Verb-nouns in -áil have certainly become more common in contemporary Irish, but there's nothing recent about the suffix. Adhmáil, for instance, is attested since at least the 16th century, feicáil far earlier than that, and gabháil goes clear back to Old Irish.

(Message edited by Domhnaillín_Breac_na_dTruslóg on August 21, 2009)

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 8702
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Friday, August 21, 2009 - 03:50 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

And, as Bríd Mhór said, this is something which arose in speech first, and is often avoided in writing in favour of another word. There is nothing new about complaining about it either! I have a vague memory of hearing a lúibín poking fun at it from way, way back.

Maidir le peann, I think the verb would be more likely be pheannaigh mé. It's not listed, but peannaire for a penman is.

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An_chilleasrach
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Username: An_chilleasrach

Post Number: 78
Registered: 01-2009
Posted on Friday, August 21, 2009 - 05:19 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Peannaireacht is the term used in my daughter's school books for writing (in the context of learning to write for the first time). I like to think of it as "penmanship", although my budding feminist of a daughter (who adores Katie Taylor) would probably object to the term!

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 8704
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Friday, August 21, 2009 - 06:44 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

That's the problem with English - no difference between fear and duine!

The problem is elegantly sidestepped by peannaire!

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Do_chinniúint
Member
Username: Do_chinniúint

Post Number: 410
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Friday, August 21, 2009 - 07:42 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

What I geek I am to find all this stuff more interesting than I should. ;)

Now that am really starting to flip through the pages of FGB, I am starting to see many cases of were -áil appears to have been added to what seems like a foreign word. It makes me wonder if this is glimpse of where Irish is headed in the future...?

I mean, I often read about the "future" of the language, but I always end up asking myself, "how will we know it happened until after the fact?"

But if we can visibly see a pattern starting to emerge or even dominate (and I am not saying it is by any means here) in a series of dictionaries like FGB, maybe it is an indication of an actual linguistic change in the process?

Oh the things that should not keep me up at night. LOL

"If there's something wrong, those who have the ability to take action, have the responsibility to take action." Nicholas Cage (Ben Gates) National Treasure

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Ormondo
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Username: Ormondo

Post Number: 495
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Saturday, August 22, 2009 - 10:58 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

What I geek I am to find all this stuff more interesting than I should. ;)

Irish might be difficult at first with the grammar etc. but once you get over the initial threshold of difficulty the interest becomes almost an addiction ;)

Is geal leis an bhfiach dubh a ghearrcach féin.

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Do_chinniúint
Member
Username: Do_chinniúint

Post Number: 411
Registered: 01-2007


Posted on Saturday, August 22, 2009 - 11:29 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Ormondo a chara,

I hope this is not the case. If it is, then I think the poet Marty O'Conner forcasted my future.

"Be I truly doomed, for already now have I the addiction and be fast towards its overdose."

Granted he was speaking of death, but I think it can work for my case also. ;-)

"If there's something wrong, those who have the ability to take action, have the responsibility to take action." Nicholas Cage (Ben Gates) National Treasure

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Suaimhneas
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Username: Suaimhneas

Post Number: 490
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Wednesday, August 26, 2009 - 05:45 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I recall a radio interview on the Pat Kenny Show with one of the TG4 presenters of "Wimbledon Beo", when the station got the live broadcast rights for the tournament a few years ago. As far as I remember she was a native speaker from Connamara, and was talking about the words she used for the various technical terms in tennis.

She came with the phrase "ag lobáil" for "lobbing" and defended her choice as being a "natural rather than a manufactured" word

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Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 8737
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Wednesday, August 26, 2009 - 08:34 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Agus níl faic cearr le sin. Feicim go bhfuil "labáil" ag focail.ie, ach é fós le faomhadh.

http://www.focal.ie/Search.aspx?term=labáil&lang=2

Is dócha go bhfuil labail níos giorra don rud a dúirt sí ná lobáil.



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