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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2009 (July-August) » Archive through August 25, 2009 » Preverbal interrogative particle 'an' « Previous Next »

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Linda_kathleen
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Username: Linda_kathleen

Post Number: 38
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Thursday, August 13, 2009 - 10:35 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I came across the following statement on what looks like a reasonably respectable website outlining a few Irish grammar rules (by a person who states he/she is not expert).
Questions are normally formed by adding the construct 'an' before the verb. The 'an' is not usually pronounced, instead relying on the tone of voice to imply a question, but the word does cause an urú in most words beginning with a consonant (not l, m, n, r, s).
Is the part in bold-face true? If it is, it's the first I've heard about it, though I don't suppose that means much. I don't see anything to indicate whether he/she is referring to a specific dialect.

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 3137
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Thursday, August 13, 2009 - 10:52 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Yes, native speakers often drop it in speech.
Of course, in learning stuff you may hear it, since they speech very slowly and tend to pronounce everything so that the learner isn't surprised (and some learning stuff is recorded by non-native speakers too, who don't pronounce properly or at least, not naturally).

In the Gaeltacht, you'll hear stuff like:

bhfuil tú go maith?
gceannóchaidh tú sin?
bhfaca tú é?
síleann tú go bhfuil sé fíor?

etc

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg
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Username: Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg

Post Number: 693
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Thursday, August 13, 2009 - 11:00 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

In my (limited) experience, the /n/ of both the interrogative particle an and the definite article an drops out in ordinary speech except before words starting with a vowel. So a' gceapann tú? and leis a' gceist, but an aontaíonn tú liom? and san áit seo.

The remaining sound is just a shwa and so is easily swallowed if a vowel comes before, e.g. sin é an cheist sounds like sin é a cheist sounds like *sin é cheist. I wouldn't be in the least surprised to find that some speakers simply drop it in all circumstances.

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Linda_kathleen
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Username: Linda_kathleen

Post Number: 39
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Friday, August 14, 2009 - 12:38 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Go raibh maith agaibh. (Look, I even got the 2nd person plural right!)

Speaking of which, how is the final consonant pair of agaibh pronounced in Donegal? I know they usually turn bh into w instead of v, but I'm having trouble picturing a w sound at the end of a word/sentence.

(Message edited by linda_kathleen on August 14, 2009)

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Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg
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Username: Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg

Post Number: 694
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Friday, August 14, 2009 - 12:47 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Togha mná!

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Ingeborg
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Username: Ingeborg

Post Number: 82
Registered: 03-2008


Posted on Friday, August 14, 2009 - 04:55 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

but I'm having trouble picturing a w sound at the end of a word/sentence



Nothing hinders a [w] at the end of a word, but English does not know it.

For example in Danish you have words like dav [dɑwɁ] (hi!) or dog [dɔw] (but).

By the way, agaiḃ is in

Connamara: [a:gi:]
Munster: [ə'guv´]
Ulster: [ask someone who knows]

And in the formula Go raiḃ maiṫ agat for thanks, the words are often a bit shortened:

Like go rai' maiṫ agat (Munster) or go rai' maiṫ 'at (Connamara), there might be some short form in Ulster also.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 8673
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Friday, August 14, 2009 - 07:30 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Cloistear "maith agat" nó "gura míle" sách minic freisin!

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Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 3138
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Friday, August 14, 2009 - 09:07 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Go raibh maith agaibh. (Look, I even got the 2nd person plural right!)

Speaking of which, how is the final consonant pair of agaibh pronounced in Donegal? I know they usually turn bh into w instead of v,



Broad bh's are pronounced like w, not the slender ones. The slender ones are almost always v.
Agaibh is pronounced ogguv in Ulster (roughly).

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Linda_kathleen
Member
Username: Linda_kathleen

Post Number: 40
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Friday, August 14, 2009 - 04:16 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Togha mná!

A Dhomnaillín. GRMA. And for the new word -- togha. By the way, what does your user ID mean? If I mix up enough Irish and English, I aan make a pretty good case for 'breaking the stride of a speckled trout'!

quote:

By the way, agaiḃ is in

Connamara: [a:gi:]
Munster: [ə'guv´]
Ulster: [ask someone who knows]

A Ingeborg. (Hope I got that right. I checked out the previous discussion on the vocative of your name, and it looks to me as if you concluded a hIngeborg looked too much like 'her Ingeborg'. I couldn't understand the Irish that followed but since it's your name, I'll go by your preference.) GRMA for giving the variations for multiple dialects. I don't expect people to do that, but I love it when they do! Now, could you take a moment to explain why the dialects are frequently referred to as "Munster, Ulster and Connamara" instead of "Munster, Ulster and Connacht"? It seems to show up too often to be a fluke. Too many variations in Connacht as a whole?
quote:

Broad bh's are pronounced like w, not the slender ones. The slender ones are almost always v.

Maith agat, a Lughaidh. I didn't even appreciate the difference until you pointed it out. And I should have, because I've visited your 'Recordings of the Sounds of Irish' site at least a million times! Do the good folk of Donegal also use the short forms for 'thank you' which Aonghus and Ingeborg have mentioned? Have they got any additional ones of their own?
quote:

Cloistear "maith agat" nó "gura míle" sách minic freisin!

A Aonghuis, a chara, 3 new words in one sentence! GRMA. But did you have to use forms not listed in my dictionaries? But I'm nothing if not ingenious, so I managed to track them down. Even gura, the present subjunctive of . And 'be a thousand/million' still made no sense!

(Message edited by linda_kathleen on August 14, 2009)

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 8677
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Friday, August 14, 2009 - 04:27 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"gura míle" is a contraction of go raibh míle maith agat. A bit like "Ta" in English for thanks.

What other words were not in your dictionary?

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Student
Member
Username: Student

Post Number: 160
Registered: 07-2008


Posted on Friday, August 14, 2009 - 04:31 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Message removed. I see Aonghus already answered.

(Message edited by student on August 14, 2009)

www.irishbooksandgifts.com

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Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 8681
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Friday, August 14, 2009 - 05:00 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Bhí sé ceart agat é fhágáil ann! Is fearr fianaise beirt!

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Ingeborg
Member
Username: Ingeborg

Post Number: 85
Registered: 03-2008


Posted on Friday, August 14, 2009 - 05:53 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

and it looks to me as if you concluded a hIngeborg looked too much like 'her Ingeborg'.



Exactly. Words that triggers lenition like the particle a before the vocative never prefix a h.

quote:

explain why the dialects are frequently referred to as "Munster, Ulster and Connamara" instead of "Munster, Ulster and Connacht



In Connacht, there are the dialects in the county Connamara and the ones in the county Mayo, which have distinct features.

I gave the pronunciation of Cois Ḟairrge of the county Connamara.

Connamaras [a:gi:] for agaiḃ is in Tourmakeady (Co. Mayo) [agi:]

This is only a slight difference, but there are better examples:

Mayo do not do the contraction, were there is an intervocalic h like in aṫair:

Cois Ḟairrge: [a:r´]
Tourmakeady: [ahir´] (the same as in Munster, by the way)

Mayos dialects seem not to be especially popular among students and the number of speakers dropped drastically in the last century, so nowadays Connacht Irish is normaly Connamara Irish.

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Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 3140
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Friday, August 14, 2009 - 07:08 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Maith agat, a Lughaidh. I didn't even appreciate the difference until you pointed it out. And I should have, because I've visited your 'Recordings of the Sounds of Irish' site at least a million times! Do the good folk of Donegal also use the short forms for 'thank you' which Aonghus and Ingeborg have mentioned? Have they got any additional ones of their own?



I heard "go 'maith 'gad" from Ulster people :-)

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Curiousfinn
Member
Username: Curiousfinn

Post Number: 293
Registered: 08-2008
Posted on Friday, August 14, 2009 - 07:37 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Linda, scríobh tú:

A Dhomnaillín....what does your user ID mean? If I mix up enough Irish and English, I aan make a pretty good case for 'breaking the stride of a speckled trout'!

After enough rending and tending about in that direction, I was given the advice, "cuardaigh an diabhal líonra!" Googling it down with the correct fadas will give you conclusive results. The first is my discussion on the topic two months ago, and about the third has the direct answer.

Finnín Feoir

Tine, siúil liom!

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Linda_kathleen
Member
Username: Linda_kathleen

Post Number: 41
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Friday, August 14, 2009 - 10:06 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

I was given the advice, "cuardaigh an diabhal líonra!" Googling it ... will give you conclusive results ... the third has the direct answer.

Thanks, a Fhinnín, I tried, but my Irish is nowhere near up to a puzzle of this complexity. I'll just have to look forward to the day when I'm ready for it. Unless, of course, some kind soul wants to take pity on me in the meantime. Hint, hint.

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Student
Member
Username: Student

Post Number: 161
Registered: 07-2008


Posted on Friday, August 14, 2009 - 10:16 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post


www.irishbooksandgifts.com

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Curiousfinn
Member
Username: Curiousfinn

Post Number: 294
Registered: 08-2008
Posted on Friday, August 14, 2009 - 10:25 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Well, "cuardaigh an diabhal líonra" is just the same as STFW... Student nailed it, search "domhnaillín breac na dtruslóg" in that document...

Needless to say, Finnín Feoir is there too. B)

Tine, siúil liom!

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Linda_kathleen
Member
Username: Linda_kathleen

Post Number: 42
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Friday, August 14, 2009 - 11:05 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

"gura míle" is a contraction of go raibh míle maith agat

Tricky, a Aonghuis, very tricky, but at least I can truthfully say I'll never forget it. When I finally get to Donegal, I'll use it every chance I get. If it's already in common parlance up there, they'll think I've been speaking Irish forever. If not, they'll be so impressed by 'my' explanation of the contraction. I can't lose!

quote:

What other words were not in your dictionary?

Cloistear. But that's because I still don't know enough to recognize the endings which would signal, for example, a particular tense, and therefore a verb. I eventually tracked it down through An Foclóir Béag, which took a while since it's entirely in Irish. But I expect things to get a little easier now that my copy of Ó Siadhail's Learning Irish (which introduces the autonomous on page 8!) has finally arrived!

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Lars
Member
Username: Lars

Post Number: 407
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Saturday, August 15, 2009 - 03:49 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

the pronunciation of Cois Ḟairrge of the county Connamara.


County Galway (Contae na Gaillimhe nó Contae na Gailliṁe)
There's no County Connemara.
And some people say that Cois Fharraige isn't really a part of Conamara proper.
quote:

Mayo do not do the contraction, were there is an intervocalic h like in aṫair:

Cois Ḟairrge: [a:r´]
Tourmakeady: [ahir´] (the same as in Munster, by the way)


Cois Fharraige rather: [æ:r´]
[ahər´] is used in the rest of Galway Gaeltachts, too.

Lars

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Macdara
Member
Username: Macdara

Post Number: 36
Registered: 09-2008
Posted on Saturday, August 15, 2009 - 06:56 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

The kids at Coláiste Chiarán,Oileán Cléire often say 'Go raibh míle Síle'

Just a bit of fun and not to be recommended unless you are addressing an Australian woman perhaps! (maybe not then either)

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Eadaoin
Member
Username: Eadaoin

Post Number: 30
Registered: 02-2009
Posted on Saturday, August 15, 2009 - 11:49 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

and some of my kids in Dublin used to say it too - picked it up at school, i suppose.

eadaoin



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