I would be glad, if someone could give a judgement, if my pronunciation is understandable and acceptable, or where it is strange and I should make an effort to change it. My impression is that the people in TG4 sound very differently from me.


I spoke the following:

Ceaċt a Cúig Déag
Baile an Tobair
Tá Taḋg agus Nuala ina gcónaí fén dtuaṫ. Tá sráidḃaile – Baile an Tobair – cóngaraċ dóiḃ, aċ tá sé an-ḃeag. Níl ann aċ siopa, oifig an ṗoist, tiġ táḃairne, séipéal, agus cúpla tiġ. Is le Paidí an Ġleanna gaċ aon rud aċ an séipéal.
Bíonn gaċ aon saġas rud ar díol sa siopa – arán, im, tae, siúcra, bainne, éadaí, páipéirí. Bíonn Paidí ag obair sa siopa, agus bíonn a ḃean, Peig, in oifig an ṗoist. Bíonn sí ag díol stampaí agus cártaí. Tá an tiġ táḃairne in aice leis an siopa. Bíonn Paidí ag obair ann leis. Bíonn a ċlann ag tabairt caḃair dó.
Téann na daoine go léir go dtí an siopa. Bíonn na rudaí an-ḋaor, aċ níl aon siopa eile ann. Téann Taḋg agus Nuala ann. Ceannaíonn siad tae, siúcra, agus an páipéar. Ní ċeannaíonn Nuala bainne ná arán sa siopa. Tá bó aici agus mar sin bíonn bainne sa ċistin gaċ maidin. Deineann sí arán tí ag baile mar is maiṫ lena fear an t-arán tí.
Nuair a ṫagann siad go dtí an sráidḃaile, buaileann siad leis na daoine eile ann. Téann siad go dtí oifig an ṗoist uaireanta. Nuair a ḃíonn gaċ rud acu, imíonn siad aḃaile.

Ceaċt a Sé Déag
Tá Nuala sa siopa. Tá sí ag ceannaċ rudaí ann. Tá Paidí an Ġleanna ag caint léi.
Nuala: Dia ḋuit.
Paidí: Dia’s Muire ḋuit. Tá sé bog.
Nuala: Tá, ṁuis’, tá sé an-ḃog. Tá. An ḃfuil tú i t’aonar? Paidí: Táim. Tá na buaċaillí ar scoil, agus tá Peig in oifig an ṗoist.
Nuala: An ḃfuil siúcra agat?
Paidí: Tá.
Nuala: Agus an páipéas, an Press?
Paidí: Seo ḋuit. Síucra agus an Press – sin punt.
Nuala: Seo.
Paidí: Go raiḃ maiṫ agat. Conas atá Taḋg?
Nuala: Ḋera. Tá sé alright. Tá sé san ospidéal i Mainistir an Droiċid inniu.
Paidí: An ḃfuil aon ní air?
Nuala: Níl, an diaḃal, ní ḃíonn aon ní air go deo.
Paidí: Agus cad ina ṫaoḃ go ḃfuil sé ann, mar sin?
Nuala: Mar tá a ḋearṫáir breoite. An ḃfuil aiṫne agat ar a ḋearṫáir, Maiḋc?
Paidí: Tá. Tá sé ag obair i Mainistir an Droiċid, ná fuil?
Nuala: Tá. Tá sé pósta le múineoir. Is ea, lá maiṫ agat.
Paidí: Slán leat anois.

You can download the file at http://fileuploadx.de/26879

Thanks to everyone who has the patience to listen.

Ei jòò, das ist doch super! Es ist wichtig zu versuchen, die gälische Sprache direkt aus der deutschen Sprache heraus anzugehen - was Dir offenbar gelungen ist. Der Umweg über die englische Sprache ist - allein von der Aussprache her - immer ein Schritt in die falsche Richtung.


Ich habe leider nur Zeit für eine Anmerkung:

"rudaí" wird wie "rudí" ausgesprochen; das "a" ist da wegen der "caol le caol, leathan le leathan" Regel und wird so nicht ausgesprochen. Wie wir immer sagen: gälische Sprache, schwere Sprache.


Gabhaigí mo leithscéal, a dhaltaí uaisle, ach níl deis agam - cheal ama - an méid san a aistriú daoibh.

Vielen Dank fürs Reinhören, Ormondo; solche Komplimente hört man gern!

Concerning this rudaí, I thought the pronunciation to be [ro'dʷi:], but you say, there is no such off-glide.

I follow the book "The Irish of West Muskerry, A Phonetic Study by Bian Ó Cuív" and indeed he writes in §181f:

Velarized Bilabials have a ʷ off-glide before front vowels, but velarized Dentals and Velars have an ^ə off-glide before front vowels.

So we get for example [pʷi:ŋ´] (puinn) or [fʷe:r] (faoḃar) but on the other hand [prɑ:'t^ɘi:] (prátaí) or [k^ɘe:] (caoi).

I had not yet read this. So I correct my pronunciation to [ro'd^ɘi:].

Go raiḃ maiṫ agat, a Ormondo!

quote:

Concerning this rudaí, I thought the pronunciation to be [ro'dʷi:], but you say, there is no such off-glide.

There's an off-glide, but not a "w" one, it's a velar one (unrounded w, actually, it sounds very different). It may sound as a very short ə, as you wrote.

Ormondo- I had ten German lessons over 20 years ago, so I got the gist of it. :-)

Ingeborg- You would definitely be understood. Very good effort.

Jetzt weiß ich was ein Halbvokal ist!
Now I know what a slide is!
Tá a fhios agam anois cad is sleamhnóg ann!

Under the following link I have made an effort to give you the offglides in "rudaí" and "prátaí":
http://www.fileuploadx.de/295572

(An bhfuil sé ceart go leor, a Bhrídmhór?)

Warnung auf der Packung!
My non-native Irish is Munster-orientated.

And sorry about the sound quality.

(Message edited by ormondo on August 13, 2009)

quote:

My non-native Irish is Munster-orientated.

Mine to. So I took a text with some slight idiosyncrasies of Munster Irish, for example tiġ for teaċ, fén for faoin, lenited ḋuit after vowels, ná fuil for naċ ḃfuil; and I am not always so sure, when I am reading Ó Siadhail, how far I should go in phonetic changes and if I do not speak nonsense in cases like ['riŋ´i] (rinne).

quote:

I have made an effort to give you the offglides in "rudaí" and "prátaí"

I think, you put the theorie into practice. At first I was confused, because you did not pronounce the whole words, but only the second syllable, but now I think it hit the bulls eye.

quote:

Now I know what a slide is!

If you have a tendency for Munster, glides are important, because, as Ó Cuív puts it "glides are a common feature in our dialect"

quote:

direkt aus der deutschen Sprache heraus anzugehen

PS: Did you hear my German accent? Yes, you are quite right. But as you said, I do not think this more grave than an English accent, quite the contrary. For example we have no problems with ċ's

PS: Did you hear my German accent? Yes, you are quite right. But as you said, I do not think this more grave than an English accent, quite the contrary. For example we have no problems with ċ's

Your German accent wasn't very pronounced at all.

I believe if a native German-speaker perseveres with Irish that on average her/his pronunciation will end up being much closer to the Gaeilge phonology than that of most Irish people with English as their native language. The only association I can ascertain between English and Irish is that there are a lot of people speaking Irish who have English as their Ausgangssprache, mar a déarfá - hence the association. Irish is kind of trapped within an English framework but linguistically they are pretty much total strangers, it seems to me.

I have had native German speakers pronounce things like "an chloch" and "na cloiche", just to hear how it would go. Untrained English speakers find it almost impossible to get the "ch" before the "l" in "chloch" and after the "i" in "cloiche", but even the untrained German speakers got all these things right first time.

I suppose it is like the Spanish speaker having a head start in English when it comes to the "th".

And again, I have had one German speaker without Irish listen to fluent native and non-native Irish speakers on RnaG and she could distinguish the native speakers from the non-native speaker most of the time. The Anglo-strains comes across much the same way as when an English speaker is speaking German.

I wonder if non-native Irish speakers would find it easier if their own regional Irish dialects were still alive? Just imagine if German had disappeared from Northern Germany and anybody who wanted to learn spoken German had to learn one of the southern dialects.

And as regards regional dialects: in Schwäbisch I hear a lot of nasalization etc which sounds very similar to what you get in Irish. Strangely enough, Hochdeutsch seems to disdain such regional phonetics.

(Message edited by ormondo on August 13, 2009)

Brídmhór: it just occurred to me to ask you whether you approached German directly from Irish or was it through English? Or anybody else?

I have had native German speakers pronounce things like "an chloch" and "na cloiche", just to hear how it would go. Untrained English speakers find it almost impossible to get the "ch" before the "l" in "chloch" and after the "i" in "cloiche", but even the untrained German speakers got all these things right first time.

Then again, quite a few English speakers don't need to use the 'helping vowel' in places where Irish uses it, and some may have to put one in for chl-. One of the best exercises is just to open up the mouth. At least from an English perspective, our mouths are often too closed up.

I did a sound file of
Rudaí- Fataí - Prátaí

http://www.box.net/shared/da5j1i4oh6

In Conamara we have fataí so my pronunciation of prátaí might not sound like the usual Munster way.


One winter I did night classes in Áras Mháirtín Uí Chadhain. A very long time ago now. And what I learnt is mostly forgotten.
My teacher was Barbara Hergett. She plays Sarah on Rós na Rún.
She is a native speaker from An Spidéal. But she is married to a German man and is fluent in German. The classes were taught through Irish.

quote:

And again, I have had one German speaker without Irish listen to fluent native and non-native Irish speakers on RnaG and she could distinguish the native speakers from the non-native speaker most of the time.

Who couldn't? :-)

quote:

so my pronunciation of prátaí might not sound like the usual Munster way

I think the only difference is, were you put the stress accent in prátaí.

In the word fataí the first vowel is very different also, they lenghten it in Connamara.

Conamara: ['fa:t^əi:]
an Mhumhain: [fə't^əi:] (if someone would say it)

quote:

in Schwäbisch I hear a lot of nasalization etc which sounds very similar to what you get in Irish

Do you mean phenomena like [lɑ˜:] (láṁa) versus [lɑ:] (lá)?
I can ask my brother about it, he lives im Ländle, in Schorndorf, which is part of Swabia. Which German (= Swabian) words do you mean?

quote:

and anybody who wanted to learn spoken German had to learn one of the southern dialects

They did something in this way:

"Until about 1800, standard German was almost only a written language. At this time, people in urban northern Germany, who spoke dialects very different from Standard German, learned it almost like a foreign language and tried to pronounce it as close to the spelling as possible."

Of course it helped a lot to know Platt (Low German).

Ingeborg inspired me to have a try myself with the text (ceacht 15) she'd recorded. So here's the link to my audio file:
http://www.box.net/shared/dnzh21eqq1
I'm into Munster Irish as well so I did my best to make it sound as Munster as possible. I'm still at the beginner's level in speaking though I've been learning Irish for a long time.
And I'd be appreciated if you could judge my pronunciation in Irish and tell me what I should focus on and improve. The long-short vowel distinction is difficult for me, because there's no such distinction in my native language (Polish) and not only that. I'm curious too how my accent sounds like. Is it audibly Polish or what? Any comments would be appreciated.

GRMA

Miły Crí,
cieszy mnie że drugi człowiek ma odwagę zrobić zapis na taśmie.
Myślę że mówisz bardzo dobrze. Śwetnie! Kiedy przysłuchiwałam się, zauważałam dwie błędu w moim wymowie: post [post] ma dopełnicz poist [piʃt´] nie *[ poʃt´] i w słowie taḃaire nie słuszne wymawiać ḃ, prawda jest, jak ty mówiłeś, [tɑ:rn´ə].

Tylko jedna rzecz u ciebie: wymowa acu jest [ə'ku].

I bainne ty wymówisz [bɑn´i], a ja [bɑŋ´i], ale ta są varianty w Munster samie.

Myślę że takiż zapis jest dużią pomocą za uczenie jak nas, może możemy kontynuować zrobić zapisy?

PS. Znasz że najlepiej podzęcznik munsterskiego języka jest po polsku, nieprawdaż? An Ghaeilge, pisany przez Aidan Doyle.

PPS: For the general audience: I discovered two more lapses in my pronunciation: poist is [piʃt´] and taḃaire is [tɑ:rn´ə]. You keep a ḃ between vowels only, if a long vowel or diphthong immediately follows.

Unstressed -e are not really [i] but more [ɪ]. It's not an ee-sound but more like i in "to hit", for instance.

Poist is pronounced [pʷɪʃtʲ] - older spelling "puist", which was much clearer although it doesn't look "regular" in its spelling.

quote:

Unstressed -e are not really [i] but more [ɪ].

I remember, in another discussion someone gave the English example elephant ['elifənt] were you don't have a real [i] for the Shva-sound, but it is a [ə] with i-quality.
Thanks for the advice, I try to say [bɑŋ´ɪ] now.

Ingeborg,
jestem pod wrażeniem tego jak piszesz po polsku! Jak i gdzie tak dobrze się nauczyłaś polskiego? Czy to dzięki książce An Ghaeilge? To naprawdę świetny podręcznik, sam się z niego uczę.
Masz rację, takie nagrania mogą być bardzo pomocne w nauce i chętnie będę kontynuować.

You mean my acu is more like [ə'kə], right?

Thanks for your comments.

quote:

Jak i gdzie tak dobrze się nauczyłaś polskiego?

Przede wszystkim uczę się jęsyków w domu sama z książkami, ale byłam także na jednen tydzień w Krakowie. Teraz mój polski trochę zgnuśneje, bo czytam więcej po ruski.

quote:

Czy to dzięki książce An Ghaeilge?

Niestety nie. To jest bardzo dobrą książką, ale mam problemy rosumieć objaśnenia. Tłumaczenia są lekka, na przykład, jeżeli piszą “Tá an bord á ġlanaḋ - Stół się czyści”, ale kiedy jest text jak “Dokładnie tak samo zachowuje się formas złożona z tego zaimka, a mianowicie á, tylko że wypływ wywierany jest na ...” nic nie rozumiem.

quote:

You mean my acu is more like [ə'kə], right?

Tak.


PS. I think, who don't know Polish, do not need to know about the book "an Ghaeilge Podręczik języka irlandzkiego", although I can recommend it highly. It teaches Munster Irish.

Crí, that's phenomenal! How did you manage that?

Folks, I would be interested to know which Irish sounds you find more accessible and which ones you find less accessible coming from your own languages.

And how did you come across Irish in the first place?

Why did you decide to study it?

(I see with box.net one can listen to the file without having to download it.)

Ingeborg,

quote:

Przede wszystkim uczę się jęsyków w domu sama z książkami, ale byłam także na jednen tydzień w Krakowie.

Jestem więc pod wrażeniem, że tak dobrze Ci idzie.

quote:

Tłumaczenia są lekka, na przykład, jeżeli piszą “Tá an bord á ġlanaḋ - Stół się czyści”, ale kiedy jest text jak “Dokładnie tak samo zachowuje się formas złożona z tego zaimka, a mianowicie á, tylko że wypływ wywierany jest na ...” nic nie rozumiem.

It means: do + a (his, her, their) = á so á causes the same mutation type as a (his, her, their) does, but on the verbal noun and the mutation type depends on the gender of the subject in the sentence - more or less. If you ever had any problems with Polish language in that book or anything else, feel free to ask me (my e-mail: qrizz7{at}gmail.com).

Ormondo,

quote:

Crí, that's phenomenal! How did you manage that?

Thanks, I just practice a lot and listen to Saol ó Dheas on RnaG.

quote:

I would be interested to know which Irish sounds you find less accessible

I fought with the usual suspects:

- slender r
- lenited broad d / g [γ]

And all those [n]s, [N]s, [n´]s and [N´] (the same with the different l's) confused me a lot (and I am glad I chose the dialect with the least of them ).

And I am not to apt at palatisation.

So enough to keep you awake late at night ...

I made a new recording of another lesson, mainly, because I am used to do dictation to practice orthography, when learning foreign languages and feeling here a lack of materials, so I make them myself for me. But I like to share it. So here you are: (You can find it at http://www.box.net/shared/s4ta0hhk9u if interested.

Ceaċt a Seaċt Déag
Seaċtain Ċáit
Éiríonn Cáit go luaṫ Dé Luain. Níonn sí í féin agus iṫeann sí bricfeasta. Imíonn sí ansan, mar tosnaíonn sí ag obair go luaṫ.
Siúlann sí go dtí an scoil, mar tá sí ina cónaí cóngaraċ di. Críoċnaíonn sí an obair tráṫnóna. Bíonn tuirse uirṫi, mar bíonn sí ina seasaṁ an lá ar fad.
Bíonn sí ag obair gaċ lá, naċ mór – Dé Luain, Dé Máirt, Dé Céadoin, Déardaoin agus Dé hAoine. Codlaíonn sí go headra Dé Saṫairn. An ḃfuil a ḟios agaiḃ cad a ḋeineann sí Dé Doṁnaiġ ? Ní ḃíonn sí ina haonar in aon ċor.
Tá Pádraig – aṫair Ċáit – a máṫair, Nóra, agus a dearṫáir, Dónall, sa ċistin. Tá an páipéar á léaṁ ag Dónall. Tosnaíonn Pádraig ag caint le Nóra.
Pádraig : Cad atá á ḋéanaṁ agat?
Nóra : Tá na háraistí á ní agam.
Pádraig : Ná fuil aon arán againn?
Nóra : Tá arán á ḋéanaṁ agam. Tá sé ullaṁ, naċ mór.
Pádraig: Cá ḃfuil an paípéar?
Nóra: Tá sé á léaṁ ag Dónall.
Pádraig: Agus cá ḃfuil Cáit?
Nóra: Tá sí ina codlaḋ.

Noteworthy compared with orthography I find:
- bricfeasta is stressed on the second syllable: [br´ik'f´astə]
- tráṫnóna is pronounced as if it were *tránṫóna
- uirṫe is ['er´hi] (also ['ir´hi] is possible)
- Déardaoin is pronounced [d´e:r'di:n´], not *[d´iar...]
- agaiḃ is pronounced [ə'guv´]
- aṫair is pronounced as if it were *aiṫair
- in codlaḋ the l is lost

It was advised always to lenite after á, so that tá Béarla á ḟoġlaim agam, tá Gaeilge á foġlaim agam and tá na ceaċtanna á ḃfoġlaim agam all would be [aulɪm´]. I am not very fond of this. Does someone know, if this is a widespread usage or rustic (of course everything is rustic what I say, trying to mimic the speech of a village of 300 souls), so that following the written form would not be artificial?

That sounds very good again!

I'm not an academic linguist, but this is how I would pronounce the following two pieces - as I know them:

"ina seasaṁ"
http://www.box.net/shared/ppz4baqm1b

"ullaṁ"
http://www.box.net/shared/ogc3p24k1k

Ich hoffe, dass Du das Wesentliche heraushören kannst.

quote:

- aṫair is pronounced as if it were *aiṫair

You meant "*aithir ? If you write "aithair" we don't know if the th is broad or slender...

quote:

- in codlaḋ the l is lost

Well, normally in all dialects it is the first d that is lost, and it's pronounced as if it were "colladh".

Thanks for your comments, Ormondo!

quote:

"ina seasaṁ" "ullaṁ"
Ich hoffe, dass Du das Wesentliche heraushören kannst.

I believe, my main problem is the broad ṁ, which I pronounce [w] or even [ŭ]. I am not yet sure how to differentiate [v] and [v´], so I substituted one in a way, as is common in the north. This is erroneous, I know.

You rightly corrected me, that ullaṁ begins with an [o] not an [u].

So the word is [oləv].

In "ina seasaṁ" it is the same with the ṁ, but in the first part of the word I heard in your recording an [ɑ].
Isn't it [ʃasev]? Only in the masculine we get "ina ṡeasaṁ" [hɑsev], because after spoken (h)aitches, graphic ea turns to [ɑ], doesn't it?

quote:

You meant "*aithir ? If you write "aithair" we don't know if the th is broad or slender...

Of course you are right, it is an typological error.

I wanted only to point out, that in aṫair the a is [a], (but in its other forms not: aṫar and aiṫreacha have an [ɑ] at the beginning.), which is strange behaviour.

By the way, is there a difference between slender and broad ṫ. I remember to have read once, that this is the only consonant which does not know this differentiation.

I mean, is there a difference between ṫuig (he understood) and a ṫig (his track)? I would both pronounce [hig´]
(Sorry I found no better minimal pairs)

quote:

Well, normally in all dialects it is the first d that is lost

I mixed "only the l is spoken" and "the d is lost" The result was rubbish.

Thank you for your corrections. In writing Irish you need concentration to get everything right.

quote:

I wanted only to point out, that in aṫair the a is [a], (but in its other forms not: aṫar and aiṫreacha have an [ɑ] at the beginning.), which is strange behaviour.

I don't see any reason for that in Munster Irish. It may be a typo...

In most dialects, h is always the same sound, be it broad or slender : [h].
However in some dialects (Waterford, if I remember well), there's a difference between slender and broad h.

Now, for thuig and thig, be careful because the vowel is not a plain [i], but [ɪ].

quote:

It may be a typo

It is too explicit to be a typo: (Ó Cuív §295)

"a = [ɑ] normally.

Exceptions: (1) It is [a] in aṫair. But it is [ɑ] in inflected forms where the r is non-palatalized, e.g. aṫar [ɑhər]."

Aidan Doyle gives the same variation in pronunciation.

quote:

I don't see any reason

The given reason (palatilization of the r) is not clear to me, either.

Of course, aiṫreacha has a [a], too. That was wrong in my previous post. It is even written with a ai- in the beginning. So orthography reflect these changes at least in the plural.