Hi! Need some help with An tIdirlíon, please.

1. is it pronounced uhn* tid-ir-leen or uhn tid-ir-lee^yn? ie, 3 syllables, or 3-1/2, if you know what I mean.

    I usually rely on the Abair.ie's synthesizer for pronunciation, but it's sort of mangling the last syllable. That usually indicates an error of some sort (a spelling mistake or an incorrect fada), but according to Pota Focal, which lists An tIdirlíon under líon, it's correct. None of my dictionaries lists it at all, even though one was published as recently as 2004.
*  for simplicity, "uhn" rhymes with English "bun" (though I know Irish "an" sounds a little different).

2. is there any difference in sound between Idirlíon, the nominative, and Idirlín, the genitive?

3. are these sentences correct?

(a)	tá sé ar an tIdirlíon		it's on the Internet
(b)	an bhfuil tú ar an tIdiríon?		are you on the Internet?
(c)	tá sí ar líne bunús an ama		she is on-line most of the time
(d)	tá mé ag dul ar líne anois		I'm going on-line now

Thanks muchly.

1. There should be a slight off-glide in the last syllable. Not as substantial as the on in, say, the first syllable of bliana, but a noticeable transition between the slender vowel and the broad consonant. I don't hear that as a "half syllable", but then I'm not you.

2. Most definitely. If you synthesise Idirlín, you should notice that the off-glide is now gone. The sound of the n is also different, but this is a distinction that's difficult for English speakers both to perceive and produce.

3a/b. *ar an tIdirlíon The prefixed t only occurs in the nominative/accusative. It's dropped in the dative (i.e. when the noun is the object of a preposition; there are a few prepositions which take the nominative/accusative, like gan, idir, and go dtí).

The rest looks fine.

1,2. Thanks, Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg. (Mind if I call you Domhnaillín?) Now that you've confirmed it, it's sounding a little less mangled, and a little more off-glided every time I listen to it. "Half-syllable" is probably an overstatement, but that's how my Irish grandfather described it when we asked why he pronounced his hometown Port^uh-down, not Portdown.

quote:

The prefixed t only occurs in the nominative/accusative. It's dropped in the dative ...

3. That's what my textbook said, but then I saw this example on Gramadach na Gaeilge's webpage for 'ar':

tá punt ar an t-ull = the apple costs a pound

That's a t-prefixed noun in the dative, isn't it?

Anyway, trying again:

nominative: Is an tIdirlíon gach áit. The Internet is everywhere.
genitive: Seo suiomh Idirlín. This is a website.
dative: Tá sé ar an Idirlíon. It's on the Internet.

Please feel free to correct any new mistakes I might have introduced.

"Port-uh-down" strikes me as a different phenomenon than what I'm talking about. There's no off-glide there, just a fully-released stop. (Most English-speakers would suppress the release in a context like that.)

ar an t-ull looks like an error to me. If you read the section on prefixed-t in the Initial Mutations chapter of that selfsame site, you'll find ar an úll given as an example.

Is an tIdirlíon gach áit. This actually reads "Every place is the Internet", which is rather nonsensical. Remember, is for identity, tá for location. And I would say i ngach áit.

Seo suiomh Idirlín. The preferred term for "website" is suíomh Gréasáin. Suíomh Idirlín is literally "Internet site", and it's also in common use. Note that the vowel in suíomh is long in any case.

"ar an t-ull" is definitely an error.
Sorry

Lars

Oh, and "Domhnaillín" is fine, a Linda, just be sure to use the vocative!

gach áit is fine (as is: i ngach áit)

Go raibh maith agat, a Scooby. Nílim cinnte riamh cé acu is ea atá rud éigin cearr i ndáiríre nó ní hea ach rud éigin go bhfuilim dall air.

quote:

There should be a slight off-glide in the last syllable.

Still trying to refine my pronunciation. (ie, still getting tongue-tied over this one.) Would you say the off-glide diminishes the "ee" sound, or the "un" sound? That is to say, id-ir-l^eeuhn or id-ir-lee^uhn.

I know "diminishes" is probably not the right word, but I hope you can understand/guess what I mean. I also know that the first syllable of the word gets the primary emphasis, so my question is not so much how I should pronounce it in order for others to understand me, but more how I must "envision" it in order to get the word out at all (particularly when it is t-prefixed)!

When something is described as an "on-glide" or "off-glide", then by implication it can't be the main vowel. In líon, the main vowel is í, so the off-glide is the part that isn't í.

Some vowels have both an on-glide and an off-glide. For instance, the second syllable of tarlaíonn. It might sound like a tall order to fit "uh-EE-uh" all into one syllable, but if you get the broad or slender quality of the consonants right then the correct glides will form without you having to think about it.

quote:

Remember, is for identity, tá for location.

Thanks, that's a lot more useful than my textbook's permanent vs temporary rule. Thank god my new textbook should be arriving any day now!


Could you please confirm that the following is correct?

Tá an tIdirlíon i ngach áit. = The Internet is everywhere.

I'm beating this to death because I never know when I'm supposed to repeat some form of sé or é, in addition to the noun-subject, and if so, where to put it. (I'd like to know the answer for standard and Ulster Irish, please, since my family is in Donegal.)

quote:

gach áit is fine (as is: i ngach áit)

So, is Tá an tIdirlíon gach áit also correct, and if so, is there anything else I need to do to make sure it's not mistaken for "Every place is the Internet"? For example, any changes in word order or additional words/clauses needed?

Tá an tIdirlíon i ngach áit is perfectly correct Standard Irish. I can't speak to Ulster, however; hopefully Lughaidh will weigh in.

Even if you use gach áit, there's no way this could be mistaken for "Every place is the Internet". Sentences like that require a form of the copula.

You never need to repeat the subject pronoun sé. Copying of é only happens with the copula, and since you're not using the copula, you can relax.

The temporary vs. permanent rule isn't a bad one, just a very limited one. It only really applies to adjectives and, even with those, many speakers show a preference for tá even with permanent qualities.

In Donegal Irish:

Tá an tIdirlíon in achan áit

Trigger, I assume that "in achan áit" comes from "in 'ach aon áit" and ultimately from "i ngach aon áit". Would that be right?

Sin a deir an Dálach, agus bheadh fhios aige!