In a sentence such as the one below, does the second phrase have to agree with the person it is describing? In this case, should it be in genitive as the name, or is such a phrase given in nominative/accusative?


Inniú lá breithe Éamoinn de Bhailéara, an chéad Taoiseach na hÉireann.


Go raibh maith agat.

I don't think it *must* be in the genitive. It *can*, of course, but doing that would make you sound stuffy. In normal everyday Irish, there is a tendency to avoid the genitive when things "get complicated" (which is a fuzzy concept, I know, but that's the best description I can think of).

By the way, it should be "céad Taoiseach na hÉireann", that is, without the initial article. Structures like "the X of the Y" are rendered as "X an/na Y" in Irish, the first article disappears. Leaving it in would be a mortal sin - much worse than getting the odd genitive wrong!

Michal, thanks for correcting the double article, mo choir féin. Here is another example along these lines, not that I don't believe you, but more to clarify the example given before. I include English to show what I intend, because I may be phrasing this wrong.


An fhéile Pádraig, Phátrúin na hÉireann.
[The feast of Patrick, patron (gen) of Ireland]

- Agreement between Patrick and patron.

nó

An fhéile Pádraig, Pátrún na hÉireann.
[The feast of Patrick, patron (nom/acc) of Ireland.]

- Non-agreement between Patrick and patron.

Hm, well, hm... I agree that these are borderline cases but I still think that if I were to write this somewhere, I'd choose the latter version (the one where "the patron of Ireland" is in the nominative).

The syntactical phenomenon we're dealing with here is apposition (comhaisnéis). I've just had a look in Graiméar Gaeilge na mBráithe Críostaí (the go-to book) and they basically say the following (pages 91 - 93): if there are two noun phrases in apposition, and if the first one is in the genitive, then the second will be in either the genitive or the nominative, depending on several factors, and they give a list of of those factors. Specifically, they mention an apposition of a personal name followed by a common noun, and they say that in this situation, the second noun is to be in the nominative. The examples they give are:

Seán, mac an dochtúra
--> leabhar Sheáin, mac an dochtúra

Tomás, an fear a thug an t-eolas
--> airgead Thomáis, an fear a thug an t-eolas

In other words, they agree with me.

And as a footnote, to tweak some of the mechanics of your sentences: if you want to put "Patrún na hÉireann" in the genitive, it should be "Phatrún na hÉireann", not "Phatrúin na hÉireann". In other words, the first noun must be lenited but must be left in the nominative case. This is on account of the "postponed genitive" phenomenon in "the X of the Y" phrases, which you may have heard of.

I'm also a little suspicious of the article in "an Fhéile Pádraig", it smacks of another transgression against the "no double genitive" rule because Pádraig is a definite noun. Now, I do know that you can sometimes transgress against that when the "the X of the Y" phrase has an indefinite semantics in spite of its definite syntax (Bráithe Críostaí p. 47: an Tadhg an dá thaobh is mó in Éirinn, is mór an trua Muire é), and I do know that this licenses the commonly occurring an Fhéile Bhríde, but still, it doesn't seem quite right. Perhaps because it's more conventional to say Lá Fhéile Pádraig. I wonder if somebody else would chip in to comment on that.

(Message edited by mbm on August 11, 2009)

Ha! Many an Irish speaking forefather is rolling in his grave! Thanks for the help. It seems like I need to hit the double article section of grammar harder!

I'd say you're already hitting it quite hard. Many Irish "learners" don't bother to hit it at all, that's the trouble :-)

Féile Pádraig, Patrún na hÉireann
a bheadh agamsa

Tá rud éigin i mo chuimhe a deir liom gur Féile Pádraig seachas Phádraig a deirtear, ach ní cuimhin liom an riail.

Dála an scéil, is dócha gur
Féile Pádraig, Patrún Éireann

a bheadh agamsa

c.f.

http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/gaeilge/corpus/urnaithe/Dochas_linn_Naomh_Padraig.html

Tá bunús leis an rud sin i do chuimhne, a Aonghu(i)s. Cé go gcuirtear séimhiú ar ainmneacha daoine sa tuiseal ginideach (airgead Thomáis, fear céile Shorcha, ...), bíonn drogall ar dhaoine é seo a dhéanamh ar ainmneacha na naomh, go háirithe ar ainm P(h)ádraig.

An chúis atá leis an drogall sin, go bhfios dom, ná gur nós saghas nua sa teanga é nós an tséimhithe ar ainmneacha sa tuiseal ginideach.

Sa C.O. leathanach 85:
ní bhíonn séimhiú ar lorg - (i) 'Féile' sa ghinideach .....

I don't think it *must* be in the genitive. It *can*, of course, but doing that would make you sound stuffy.

An éitir a rá go ndéantar amhlaidh sa Ghearmáinis? Táim cinnte de go ndéantar. Feictear dom go seachnaítear foirmeacha casta an ghinidigh i dteangacha eile freisin. An míniúchán a bheadh agamsa mar gheall ar sin ná gur toradh saorga iad na foirmeacha casta ginidigh agus go n-eascraíonn siad ó chódú na teanga mar theanga scríofa. Baineadh na foirmeacha casta an ghinidigh de thátal as loighic an chódaithe faoi mar a ndéanfaí i gcás na matamaitice - cé nach raibh na foirmeacha úd go hiondúil sa teanga labhartha roimh ré. I leabhar a saolaíodh é agus ó leabhar a foghlaimíodh agus ar bunaíodh an nós ar dtús agus ní sa chliabhán nó ón gcliabhán. Ar an ábhar sin tá "barraíocht" an ghinidigh mí-nádúrtha agus seachnaíonn na "gnáthdaoine" í - faoi mar a léirigh an leabhar seo i gcás na Gearmáine. http://www.amazon.de/Dativ-ist-Genitiv-sein-Zwiebelfisch-Kolumnen/dp/3462040537/ ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1250110464&sr=8-1

quote:

Feictear dom go seachnaítear foirmeacha casta an ghinidigh i dteangacha eile freisin. An míniúchán a bheadh agamsa mar gheall ar sin ná gur toradh saorga iad na foirmeacha casta ginidigh agus go n-eascraíonn siad ó chódú na teanga mar theanga scríofa.

B'fhéidir gur fíor sin i gcás na Gearmáinise agus na Gaeilge, ach ní gá gur fíor é i gcás teangacha eile. Sa tSeicis, mar shampla, nuair a bhíonn dhá fhrása ainmfhoclacha i gcomhaisnéis agus nuair atá an chéad cheann sa ghinideach, caithfidh an dara ceann a bheith sa ghinideach freisin, cuma cé chomh fada nó casta is atá sé:

dneska jsou narozeniny Tomáše Masaryka, prvního prezidenta Československa
inniu breithlá (ginideach:) Tomáš Masaryk, (ginideach:) céad uachtarán na Seicslóvaice

Bheadh sé míghramadúil ar fad ar fad an dara frása a fhágáil san ainmneach, fiú dá mbeifeá i measc na ngnáthdhaoine is gnáiche sa tír. Riail é seo a bhaineann le gach réim na teanga, idir labhartha agus scríofa.

Más ea, cibé dóigh a n-úsáidtear na tuisil i dteanga amháin, ní haon treoir d'aon teanga eile é.

(Message edited by mbm on August 12, 2009)

Suimiúil an méid san.