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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2009 (July-August) » Archive through August 08, 2009 » FSP: An tuiseal gairmeach/The vocative case « Previous Next »

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Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg
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Username: Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg

Post Number: 670
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Tuesday, August 04, 2009 - 10:53 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

This post is intended as a help to beginners. Many of you have doubtless noticed the custom on the board of starting a reply directly to someone else with their username in the vocative case, e.g. "a Aonghuis", "a Dhomhnaill", "a Abigail", etc. But you may be uncertain as to exactly what the rules for forming the vocative are. I'll attempt to summarise them here, all the while looking to more knowledgeable contributors to emend and expand my remarks. (For reference, Lars has a fairly comprehensive treatment here: the vocative (an tuiseal gairmeach).)

In general, the rule is quite simple: aspiration after the vocative particle, e.g.: Pádraig -> a Phádraig. A consonant which cannot aspirate is simply left alone, as is an initial vowel, e.g. Abigail -> a Abigail. (Keep in mind that aspiration and the prefixed h are mutually exclusive; where one occurs, the other never does. So a hAbigail could only mean "her Abigail".)

The twist comes with "first declension nouns"--essentially masculine names ending in a broad consonant like Aongus, Domhnall, Liam, etc. These are not only aspirated but slenderised, i.e. a Aonguis, a Dhomhnaill, a Liaim. All the same changes involved in forming the genitive of these nouns apply here as well. So for instance Teifeach -> a Theifigh (not *a Theifeaich). Or at least that's what the good Christian Brothers say. Myself, I've noticed some exceptions like a Niaill when the usual genitive of Niall is not *Niaill but Néill (with the usual vowel shift). Perhaps some experts can help clarify the guidelines in these cases?

Note also that if part of the name is in the genitive, slenderisation doesn't occur. So Mac Léinn -> a Mhac Léinn, not *a Mhic Léinn even though the usual vocative of mac on its own is a mhic (as expected given the [irregular] genitive form mic).[*] Other exceptions to this rule are collective nouns (e.g. pobal -> a phobal rather than *a phobail) and inanimate nouns (e.g. stór -> a stór).

Lastly, there's case of foreign names. There's a general tendency in Irish (as in many languages) to avoid inflecting obviously foreign words even when they can be slotted into one of the existing declensions. So even though *a Lairs would seem to be a perfectly reasonable vocative form of Lars' name, I never see it used.


[*] More advanced learners while immediately see a parallel here to the "double genitive" rule by which the first of two genitive takes only aspiration, e.g. teach mhac Sheáin.

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Teifeach
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Username: Teifeach

Post Number: 121
Registered: 03-2009
Posted on Tuesday, August 04, 2009 - 11:21 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Maith thú , these are the post i like the best , iontach ar fad , good old fashioned basic Irish , for al levels to get somethg outta , and no not cause my name was mentioned lol

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Ingeborg
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Username: Ingeborg

Post Number: 71
Registered: 03-2008


Posted on Tuesday, August 04, 2009 - 02:34 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

even though the usual vocative of mac on its own is a mhic



Ó Siaḋail writes (28,4.): “mac has two forms: a ṁac / a ṁic”

So "a Ṁac Léinn" would only use an alternative form of the vocative, I thought.

But I did not see "a ṁac" in other works, so this is maybe again only a dialectal feature of Cois Ḟairrge. (You indicated this by "usual").

By the way, the there mentioned forms "a stócaí",a ċluasánaí", there even is a groteque "a ċréatúireaċaí, "a ṁadaí" with their longer endings are certainly not CO, are they?

I wish he would say, where he aberrs from the standard, because this is not "my dialect".

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Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg
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Username: Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg

Post Number: 671
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Tuesday, August 04, 2009 - 04:49 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

It's not just mac, though. You would also say a Fhear Ionaid ("Lord Deputy") instead of *a Fhir Ionaid, a Cheann Foirne ("Chief of Staff") instead of *a Chinn F(h)oirne, and so forth.

Saying "mac has two forms" doesn't necessarily mean these forms are interchangeable. I think the good professor is only eliding a detail that he thinks may be confusing to learners.

Oh, and those forms in -aí just scream "Connacht" to me. Are you sure he doesn't list them in his appendices where he discusses the alternations he's made to the CO for his book?

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Ingeborg
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Username: Ingeborg

Post Number: 72
Registered: 03-2008


Posted on Tuesday, August 04, 2009 - 06:54 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

No, he says only, his dialect tends to use longer forms than the standard.

quote:

avoid inflecting obviously foreign words



By the way, I thought it always fun to change their anlaut as an exercise in eclipsing.
So what's up i gCórdoba, i bParis, i nGöttingen, i mBudapest or i bhFrankfurt.

PS. And with "a Lairs", everybody would think again, he were a Swede :)

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Linda_kathleen
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Username: Linda_kathleen

Post Number: 20
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Tuesday, August 04, 2009 - 08:26 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

This post is intended as a help to beginners.

You folks are unbelievably generous with your knowledge and your time. And if I might be so bold as to speak on behalf of the beginners' class of 2009, we're very grateful for it. This forum is truly fantastic.

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Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg
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Username: Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg

Post Number: 672
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Tuesday, August 04, 2009 - 09:48 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Often it's the enthusiasm of the newer learners that keeps us older learners going! It should come as no surprise to you that I learned a couple things putting together this brief intro and I expect to learn more once the truly advanced speakers begin weighing in.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 8615
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Wednesday, August 05, 2009 - 08:27 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

MBM has a dissenting opinion on "a Aonghuis" over here

I don't think I'm alone in using "A Aonghuis", but I'm not about to pick a fight with Michal. Much more fun drinking with him.

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Ingeborg
Member
Username: Ingeborg

Post Number: 75
Registered: 03-2008


Posted on Wednesday, August 05, 2009 - 10:56 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Aonghus can call himself what he wants



By the way, how are you called, a Aonġuis?

Something like ['e:ŋgǝs] or ['i:ŋgǝs], I suppose, but I am not sure, which consequences the lenited ġ has here.

Maybe it is a similar development like coṁġar to cóngar (proximity) [ko:ŋgǝr], where there was a ġ after a nasal.

And would you say "a word of Aonġus" as focal Aonġuis or focal Aonġusa, which would decide, which declination to follow?

PS. I know you normally don't give pronunciations, but for your own name you are the authority.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 8617
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Wednesday, August 05, 2009 - 02:33 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Focal Aonghusa.

I don't IPA, I'm afraid. Michal knows what my name sounds like to me, perhaps he can do the needful.

I do now that I don't pronounce it as it would be up North - similar to Aeneas.

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Lars
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Username: Lars

Post Number: 402
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Wednesday, August 05, 2009 - 04:21 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Aonghus can call himself what he wants


Ach tá foirm ghairmeach a ainm á labhairt ag daoine eile go hiondúil agus níl sí á úsáid aige féin (ach i gcaint aonair, b'fhéidir).
Ach más maith le hAonghus "a Aonghuis", abraímís mar seo!

Dála an scéil: Ní maith liom an gairmeach "a Lairs!".
Ní fhuaimníonn sé go maith i nGearḿainis (ar nós dá ndéarfaí "a thóin!")

Lars

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(Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Wednesday, August 05, 2009 - 10:35 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

De réir Réchúrsa Gramadaí fadó, Ba eisceacht é an focal "Liam" agus 'sé "A Liam" a scríobhtar agus a deirtear. N'fheadar a bhfuil sé sin fíor sa CO amháin nó sna canúintí uile chomh maith.

GRMA go léir,

Liam.

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Abigail
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Username: Abigail

Post Number: 1116
Registered: 06-2006


Posted on Wednesday, August 05, 2009 - 10:26 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Is fíor dóibh é.

Niall > a Néill,
ach
Liam > a Liam, seachas a Léim(!)

Tá fáilte roimh chuile cheartú!

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Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg
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Username: Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg

Post Number: 675
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Wednesday, August 05, 2009 - 10:54 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Cad é "Liam" sa tuiseal ginideach marar "Liaim" é?

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Abigail
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Username: Abigail

Post Number: 1117
Registered: 06-2006


Posted on Wednesday, August 05, 2009 - 11:00 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Maidir le hAonghusanna an tsaoil, tá an t-ainm sin "dé-dhíochlaontach" mar a déarfá leis na gcéadta blianta. Féach go bhfuil idir "Aonghuis" agus "Aonghusa" mar ghinideach air sna hannála, agus idir "a Aonghuis" agus "a Aonghus" mar ghairmeach sna hOsborn tracts.

Tá sciar d'ainmneacha an lae inniu a bhíonns anonn is anall idir na díochlaontaí, agus tá Aonghus orthu seo. Cúpla cinn eile a ritheann liom ná Aindrias, Feargus, Aodh.

(Message edited by abigail on August 05, 2009)

Tá fáilte roimh chuile cheartú!

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Abigail
Member
Username: Abigail

Post Number: 1118
Registered: 06-2006


Posted on Wednesday, August 05, 2009 - 11:07 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"Liam" a déarfainn féin, agus is é atá ag na Bráithre chomh maith. Ab ann do "Liaim"?

Tá fáilte roimh chuile cheartú!

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 8620
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Thursday, August 06, 2009 - 06:10 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Ainm eachtrannach is ea [Uil]liam, agus é corr dá réir.

Ní fhaca riamh Liam caolaithe, agus Liam atá ar m'athair féin.

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Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg
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Username: Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg

Post Number: 677
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Thursday, August 06, 2009 - 12:57 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Tá roinnt ainmneacha "fadhbacha" le breith na nGaeilgeoirí:

Aindrias
Donncha
Cian
Cillian
Colm
Fearghus
Murcha
Oilibhéar
Proinsias

Cad í an fhoirm ghairmeach de gach ceann díobh go bhfuil cuma níos nádúrtha uirthi libh? Agus an fhoirm ghinideach marab ionann í?

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Ormondo
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Username: Ormondo

Post Number: 476
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Thursday, August 06, 2009 - 01:48 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Nach é bunphrionsabal an scéil an méid seo: Bí do mo ghairm cibé tuiseal gairmeach is mian leat ach ná bí dá mo ghairm go moch ar maidin.

(Message edited by ormondo on August 06, 2009)

Is geal leis an bhfiach dubh a ghearrcach féin.

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Mbm
Member
Username: Mbm

Post Number: 242
Registered: 01-2006


Posted on Thursday, August 06, 2009 - 02:10 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Somebody was asking about the pronunciation of Aonghus: I pronounce him somewhat like /ˈæŋgəs/ and he doesn't seem to mind. The lenited 'gh' is of no consequence, it's still pronounced as a /g/ (by me, anyway).

Wow, there sure has been a lot of talk about Aonghus here lately! ;-)

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