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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2009 (July-August) » Archive through August 08, 2009 » Take a Glance at Manx Gaelic « Previous Next »

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Ggn
Member
Username: Ggn

Post Number: 82
Registered: 08-2008
Posted on Sunday, August 02, 2009 - 07:46 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

If anyone is interested I set up a temporary site based on Conversational Manx.

I am working on a Gaelic orthography for the book 'Conversational Manx'. There are still a couple of problems that I have to iron out!

Take a look if you are interested.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 8603
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Sunday, August 02, 2009 - 08:00 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Cá háit?

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Ggn
Member
Username: Ggn

Post Number: 83
Registered: 08-2008
Posted on Sunday, August 02, 2009 - 08:18 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

isgaeilsinne.blogspot.com

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Lars
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Username: Lars

Post Number: 397
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Sunday, August 02, 2009 - 09:27 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

http://www.isgaeilsinne.blogspot.com/
Déarfainn go mbeadh "Dubhghlais" ar 'Doolish' (Douglas) i litriú na Gaeilge, agus "Uilliam" ar 'Illiam' (William).

Lars

(Message edited by Lars on August 02, 2009)

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Ggn
Member
Username: Ggn

Post Number: 84
Registered: 08-2008
Posted on Sunday, August 02, 2009 - 10:34 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I agree with Dubhghlais but I feel that 'Illiam represents the sound better.

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Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 3115
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Sunday, August 02, 2009 - 11:31 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

For fun, I've begun to create a more Gaelic spelling for Manx too, but it's not that easy because in Manx there are things that don't happen in the other Gaelic languages, especially with vowels.

According to what I see on your blog, you're spelling the Manx words according to the Irish or Scottish spelling, not according to their Manx pronunciation.
For example:

çhing > you write "tinn". But it should be spelt "ting" if we want to correspond to the pronunciation.
lane > you write "lán", but it's pronounced as if it were "ledn"...

Your spelling will make Manx understandable for Irish and Scottish Gaelic speakers, that's all. It won't help learners to pronounce it, nor Manx speakers to recognize the pronunciation of their own language...

(Message edited by lughaidh on August 02, 2009)

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Ggn
Member
Username: Ggn

Post Number: 85
Registered: 08-2008
Posted on Sunday, August 02, 2009 - 11:46 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

The thing is its ting in Rinn but people write tinn.

Lán is pronounced 'ledn' in Southern Scotland yet spelt lán.

Likewise many Munster vowels are simply to Manx ones but spelt classically.

Its about a balance between the classical spelling and the pronouncation.

I am not trying to sell it to anyone as I know that 90% of Manx speakers are happy with their spelling. I am trying to promote intelligibilty.

It will be necessary to add a phonetic transcription to order to make it as clear as possible.

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Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 3116
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Sunday, August 02, 2009 - 01:42 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

The thing is its ting in Rinn but people write tinn.

Lán is pronounced 'ledn' in Southern Scotland yet spelt lán.



But in Manx it's not in one small dialect that they say "ledn", but in all the recordings we have.
Anyway I don't see why Manx would be spelt as Irish or Scottish Gaelic since it's a separate language with many pecularities in pronunciation (and in its historical phonetic development). I mean, you won't write English with a German spelling...


quote:

Its about a balance between the classical spelling and the pronouncation.



If your Gaelic spelling is as far or further from the Manx pronunciation than the actual Manx spelling, and if the only advantage is that it makes Manx understandable to Irish and Scottish people... I guess it's not enough.
If you want to change the spelling of Manx, you have to think of Manx people first...

quote:

I am not trying to sell it to anyone as I know that 90% of Manx speakers are happy with their spelling. I am trying to promote intelligibilty.



Ok - written intelligibility then.

quote:

It will be necessary to add a phonetic transcription to order to make it as clear as possible.



Yes that's right.
My own new spelling was more writing the Manx pronunciation with a Gaelic-like spelling. But I just do that for fun, anyway I know Manx speakers like their spelling, however crazy and non-pedagogic it is :-D

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Taidhgín
Member
Username: Taidhgín

Post Number: 433
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Sunday, August 02, 2009 - 02:01 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Ggn and Lughaidh, I think this is a brilliant idea. I have tried to read Manx on occasion without success. I heard the recording made by Ned Maddrell (?) but did not understand any of it.

It is always a pleasure to read Gaidhlig na hAlban and see how the Scots use words we are familiar with but which to them carry a slightly different meaning. For me at least it enriches my knowledge of Irish. I expect having Manx presented in such spelling also will be just as revealing.

I have on my desk here the book "Manx Idioms and Phrases / Idiomyn as Raaghyn Gaelgach" by John joseph Kneen and I'm sure I have a number of others also if I could only find them.

If you could also make some MP3 recordings of your own pronunciation I am sure it would also be a great help.

I think I may have mentioned this before but I would love to hear audio representations of some of the old dialects that are no longer used even if the material recorded by the last native speakers is very limited. Scholars such as yourselves, Ggn and Lughaidh, could easily recreate a close representation of the original sounds with the correct stress and tone etc enough to satisfy the curiosity of casual dilettantes such as myself.

Gura mie mooar eu

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Ggn
Member
Username: Ggn

Post Number: 86
Registered: 08-2008
Posted on Sunday, August 02, 2009 - 02:35 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Lughaidh,

I look forward to seeing your system. We would generally agree on little so I would expect it not to resemble my own efforts.

Taidhgín,

I have many recordings but many of them are copyrighted and I don't want to get sued by RTÉ.

I hope all the Dogen records are put online asap.

I know that a selection from Ulster is being prepared but unfortuately there seems to be little interest in forgotten dialects outside of Ulster.

There is quite a bit of recorded manx online - www.learnmanx.com

There is quite a bit of Tiree Gaelic online, cant remember the link! - Google it!

And there is a brave bit of Cape Breton Gaelic online.

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Ggn
Member
Username: Ggn

Post Number: 87
Registered: 08-2008
Posted on Sunday, August 02, 2009 - 05:19 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post


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Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 3117
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Sunday, August 02, 2009 - 07:05 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

This looks more like my own spelling, but mine is even closer to the Manx phonology.

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Danny2007
Member
Username: Danny2007

Post Number: 351
Registered: 12-2007


Posted on Sunday, August 02, 2009 - 11:47 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

And there is a brave bit of Cape Breton Gaelic online



Any links to audio? Google hasn't turned up anything for me so far.

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Ggn
Member
Username: Ggn

Post Number: 88
Registered: 08-2008
Posted on Monday, August 03, 2009 - 04:58 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post


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Conchubhar1
Member
Username: Conchubhar1

Post Number: 192
Registered: 03-2009
Posted on Monday, August 03, 2009 - 10:58 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Is one of those three not in manx spelling?


no?



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