What is the point of harping on and on against the attempts by official Ireland to accept the normal use of the Irish language and make it easy for learners to aquire a serviceable version of it with having to do a PhD in linguistics.

School-children meet with spoken Irish every day -- in Dublin! -- some have teachers from Kerry, others, from Donegal, Mayo, Galway, Cork, and fluent learners from every other county in the Republic and the Six Counties.

They all speak with distinctive features of the existing dialects. When they meet in the staffroom they have to modify the extremes of their own dialects to make themselves understood, unless they resort to English.

Why can they all not have a point of reference such as that recommended in An Foclóir Póca, minus whatever typos may have been discovered. I am sure some native speakers use some of the pronunciations recommended in An Foclóir Póca if not all.

Irish is in such a precarious state that if all the dialects cannot be saved at least the distinctive features of spoken Irish can be preserved "sa lárchanúint". Native speakers know how their dialect and their language is becoming weaker day by day. They know they already have a standard language, English that is far more powerful and dominant than any influence An Caighdeán Oifigiúil or An Foclóir Póca might have on them.

Standing out in opposition to the considered attempts by native scholars supported by the Irish state to promote the Irish langauge in some form is not helpful. There are plenty of opponents in the academic communities to the "revival of ersatz Irish i.e. any Irish used by non-traditional-native speakers" but why listen to them. Their attitude would lead to the death of the living language.

Drawing the attention of learners to such issues before they have even begun to learn the language is sabotage. Why do such a thing? Self-promotion? Surely we are not allowed to use this site for self-promotion.

I say this in response to Lughaidh's negative comments on An Foclóir Póca:

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In Irish, there is no standard pronunciation : what is given in the Foclóir Póca has no official status, it was just an attempt, and nobody uses that pronunciation. No native speaker uses it, and no native speaker speaks standard Irish.

I am not hostile to Lughaidh personally. I admire his scholarship, knowledge, and dedication. His emotional background is based on the situation of the Breton language which is in a very different situation to Irish.

Breton endures State hostility.

Irish survives and spreads by means of the State education system and more especially thrives by means of the community-based movement known as Gaelscoileanna.

We have come up with a solution in An CO and An Foclóir Póca that respects the dialects and the historical development of the language and it ill-behoves anyone on a website such as this to continue with constant opposition to what we are trying to do.

We are supposed to be helping learners here not turning them away.

Is suíomh ar leith é suíomh idirlín an fhoghlaimeora. Is iomaí uair le blianta anuas go bhfacthas dom an dochar a dhéanann foghlaimeoirí dá chéile. Ní raibh in amanna, nuair a chaithteá súil isteach ar an suíomh seo nach raibh canúintí ar an dé deiridh, nach raibh múinteoirí nach raibh in ann múineadh, nach raibh neamhaird ag neamhairdeoirí agus nach raibh gach cat mara ina chat maraithe ag sclamhairt in aghaidh na Gaeilge, dar le roinnt daoine a scríobhadh ar an suíomh seo. Chuaigh cuid díobh i leith caitheamh aimsire eile, cá bhfios, agus tá mé cinnte nárbh fhearrde cibé caitheamh aimsire a ndeachaigh siad ina cheann.

Ní dóigh liom gur féidir na buntosaitheoirí a chosaint ar an ngalar Gaelach sin, an duairceas, an poll domhain amhrais nach mbeidh teacht as go brách a Thaidhgín. Is mian le roinnt daoine a thig isteach i saol na Gaeilge iad féin a bhá sa duairceas agus an duairceas a bheith i réim, amhail is nár chloch chleasach chluain (mo leagan féin do 'mhaighnéad') an duaircis sa saol go Gaeilge. Tarraingíonn teanga ar nós na Gaeilge an dream duairceasóirí nach bhfuil a leithéid amuigh sa saol ach iad. Galar dubhach na Gaeilge, ní galar dubhach eile sa saol mór ná sa domhan donn go dtí é. Bhí sé ann, tá sé ann, is beidh sé ann nó níl soilsiú ga dá laghad gréine ná léas dóchais le brath thar bhallaí gramadaí, canúintí, Aghaidh-só-ghlasannaí, ná thar feall an mhíchló Rómhánaigh nach bagairt saoil é do dhearcadh an fhoghlaimeora Ghaeilge.

An duairceas go brách agus fad saoil do na duairceasóirí Gaeilge! Cíoraimis gach ceist go bundún is amach go bás na Gaeilge féin! Cuirimis Aghaidh-só-ghlas na fíor-Ghaeilge fiarscríofa siar go Banc an Torcáin!

(Ina dhiaidh sin féin, chaith mé cuid den lá inné i gcomhluadar tuairim is 16 cainteoirí Gaeilge i Sligeach inné (Ósta 5.00 gach Aoine). Thug aghaidh amach chuig dráma Gaeilge aréir in Ionad na nGleannta, Cluainín, Co. Liatroma, agus roinn caife is gabhdóga le ochtar Gaeilgeoirí i nDroim Dhá Thiar, Co. Liatroma, ag meán lae inniu (Toigh Stanford 12.00 gach Satharn Samhraidh). Níor thugas faoi deara aon bhlaiseadh den ghalar Gaeilge a bheith orthu. Is dóigh mar gheall go labhraíonn siad Gaeilge agus sin a bhfuil de. Tá súil le Dia agam nach dtosóidh siad ag foghlaim na Gaeilge ar nós cuid díob sin a thugann sciúird isteach ar an suíomh seo.)

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His emotional background is based on the situation of the Breton language which is in a very different situation to Irish.

To me the main difference between Irish and Breton, is that Irish has young native speakers, Breton has almost none.
The French government doesn't do many useful things for the Breton language ; the Irish government doesn't do many useful things for Gaeltacht Irish : it is not taught and not much promoted.

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We have come up with a solution in An CO and An Foclóir Póca that respects the dialects and the historical development of the language

Tá tú a' magadh.
Replacing the native dialects by an artificial dialect is not a solution.
Respecting the dialects would mean promoting them, using them and encouraging people to use them as much as possible. And it's not what happens.

Ní dóigh liom gur fiú an comhrá seo - ní spreagfaidh sé aon fhoghlaimeoir Gaeilge - ní mhaireann díospóireachta cosúil leis an cheann seo ach ar an idirlíon, shocraigh muid na ceisteanna seo in Éirinn 60-80 bliain ó shin.

Maith go leor, más ea. Fágaimis siúd mar atá sé, mar a deir an t-amhrán, agus cuirimis i bpoll tarathair é.

Hey, I'll be positive, and I don't mind writing on this just to give my prospective as a beginner.

I think a standard spelling & pronunciation schemes are good for the language in general AND for the dialects.

The former fosters communication across dialectical lines. If a dialectical pronunciation is pertinent to communication, it can be communicated, as often it is. Most writing, though, is communicating the concept behind the word, not that the speaker speaks a certain dialect. Furthermore, it depends if one is aiming toward a larger audience than the dialectical speakers. Usually dialectical matters come into play in stories, and this is where, I assume, one would see more spelling variation, and it would be welcomed as being useful for that forum. But in newspapers, government documents, etc., any place where communication is supposed to be extended to potentially all people in Ireland, a standard would facilitate that communication. It doesn't hurt the dialects because dialects could thrive and have thrived whether most people were literate or illiterate.

The latter fosters the learning process peculiar to Ireland right now. Many wish to see Irish increase in use, but the native speakers to non-native ratio is quite intimidating. Where there are speakers, learners receive mixed messages about pronunciation rules, especially the older learners who are over the "sponge" learning stage. A simple, somewhat logical, rule-based pronunciation scheme helps them get the ball rolling, so to speak. It is assumed by me, that most who progress well in Irish begin to take on a more naturally occurring pronunciation system which in many ways is beyond "rules" (or at least rules that can be memorized from a book). The exceptions to the rules are adopted naturally as one progresses (long vowels shortening, broads and slenders at places that one would not expect, the variations concerning the pesky bh, mh, dh, gh pronunciations, etc.). So the proposed standard would be a bridge, not an end in itself.

Now I know some advocate it as an end in itself for media and government speaking, and other areas to mimic a "received pronunciation" scheme used in other countries. This is, in my mind, mostly resulting as a side-effect from wide-spread communication. I also think that is why a lot of Irish covet their English as well. This could have some effect on dialects, but I think it would be minimal and spread out over time. Dialectical learners learn from their parents, so much language is grasped before they even get into school. Most people in life shift in and out of their regional speech and a "standard" (and even fake a regional speech sometimes). The question is whether a standard pronunciation and word choice would be foisted upon dialectical speakers, especially at a formative stage (making them feel like they're wrong). I think this would be an injustice, and that is where a standard could be over applied. As I said previously, a standard would be best for those with no Irish. In the higher grades, after language is firmly grasped, a standard could be taught (even a local standard, for preparation for career life).

With a respect for dialectical speakers, standards could be good for Irish. But the respect has to be built into the system, and the dialects should be taught to the speakers in those areas.

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any place where communication is supposed to be extended to potentially all people in Ireland, a standard would facilitate that communication.

Once again, you're basing your argument on the myth that people don't understand the other dialects. And as I said 100 times here, it's wrong. Watch TG4 or listen to RnaG.

My opinion is that standards are harmful for endangered languages if they are too much used, and replace the dialects. It makes diversity and richness disappear. People abandon the peculiarities of their dialect, to speak all the same way, more or less.

The main reason I feel that this 'debate' is somewhat pointless is that people are learning Irish or havwe learned for different reasons.

If learning Irish is a purely academic purist, in terms of dialectology, or just a nice hobby , then why would you see the need for a standard.

However, if you use Irish as an everyday language and use the language in a professional context then you will have a different view.

These two views will never meet. One requires standardisation, the other is actively threatened by it.

The 'debate' is quite pointless.

My main problem with dialectists is that in conversation they tend to be given to correcting people and are very often intolerant of other peoples dialects.

Tá a mhalairt fíor freisin - duine a bhuailfidh slat an chaighdeáin go docht ar chainteoir mhaith canúna!

Ach ní deacracht nua atá anseo - téann an argóint seo siar i bhfad.

Note I didn't say what you think I said. I said that a standard facilitates (makes easier) already existing communication. I didn't say it creates or establishes communication that does not exist currently. So, I agree, it is a myth.

I also do not favor the homogenization trend currently besetting the world, but I think that trend is more deeply set in our psyche than language policy. The ultimate homogenization in language, though, is eliminating Irish and having an English Ireland. The debate is between the push to gather resources to maximize our efforts (why have a united anything?), or the pull to keep them spread out to minimize risk and preserve local "flavor" (diversity, what have you). I like the middle way. A balance between cooperation and competition. Dialects interacting through an agreed upon mediation.

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My main problem with dialectists

what does "dialectist" mean to you?

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is that in conversation they tend to be given to correcting people and are very often intolerant of other peoples dialects.

I don't know anybody who tend to be given to correcting people in conversation, except teachers and CO extremists...

Has anyone on these boards gone through Irish schooling and come out the other end with the language (particularly of parent's with little to no Irish)? Did you learn your teacher's dialect? Did you work off a standard? Is there a balance between standard and dialect? Did you have different dialects taught in different years (depending on the teacher)? I wonder particularly in non-Gaeltacht areas. Anyone taught in Dublin who speaks Irish now? Do you have a dialect?

My own experience, ie. one year in a university in the 6 counties, was this :
- in speech we were allowed to use whatever thing that exists in a Gaeltacht or Standard Irish.
- in writing we were allowed to use only what is accepted in the Standard or mentioned as a variant in FGB : we could use cha, fosta, leis an fhear mhór but not léithe, not cha dtabhram, chífidh but not tchífidh nor tífidh, not théam, taram, cha dtánaic or "le na daoiní"...

I'd love to see a presentation of the main points of divergence between the "dialects," aside from how to say "how are you" and minor variations in pronunciation. I can't imagine it would be too large.

Okay, just off the top of my head I'd say these are the main points (in no kind of order.)

1. Some verbal noun endings (e.g. insint/inseacht)
2. Broad/slender variation in the middle of some words (e.g. tosaigh/toisigh)
3. Lenition vs. eclipsis in the dative (e.g. ag an bhfear/fhear)
4. Preferred locutions (e.g. cathain/cén uair)
5. Verb morphology (e.g. bhí mé/bhíos)
6. Prepositional pronouns (e.g. acu/acab)

(And yes, I know #2 and #6 are probably exactly what you have in mind as "minor variations in pronunciation," but I'd wouldn't half have got jumped on if I'd left them out!)

Genuine, nontrivial differences, all right (otherwise they'd not be dialects!) but certainly not that extreme. Again, compare to the variation between dialects of German or Italian.

Liosta maith, a Abigail. I would also mention noun morphology, particularly plural formation (e.g. the preponderance of "strong plurals" in Connacht) and use of cases (e.g. loss of genitive plural and dative outside of fixed expressions in many areas; nominative-accusative replacing genitive in Connacht, e.g. Gaeilge vs. Ulster Gaeilg, Munster Gaelainn; etc.).

I'm not sure what all is covered under "preferred locutions", but I can think of a number of constructions that are common in some dialects and rare or nonexistant in others. For instance, the Munster predilection for the passive-progressive and for copular clauses in predicate + is ea + subject.

Irregular verbs have to be mentioned too :
cífead - feicfidh mé - tchífidh mé
ní chuas - ní dheachaigh mé - níor chuaigh mé - cha dteachaigh mé
níor dheineamair - níor rinne muid - cha dtearn muid
tagaid siad - teagann siad - thig siad - tigeann siad - tarann siad
clos - cloisteáil - cluinstin, cluinstean
bhéarfaidh mé - tiubharfaidh mé - tubharfad
...

If you want to know more about dialectal variations, have a look at 'Modern Irish: Grammatical Structure and Dialectal Variation' by Ó Siadhail : 369 pages on that subject (and everything hasn't be said, of course, just the main differences)...
However these differences don't prevent people from understanding each other.

As language dialect variations go, it's no big deal, no big deal at all, really.

After tuning in to the few wee adjustments that there are to make, it is probable that, for example, a person used to the Munster dialect might find it easier to read Rotha Mór an tSaoil in the Ulster dialect than An tOileánach in the Munster dialect.

It is important not to throw them all at the learner at the early stage but the dedicated and doughty soul (the sort one has to be anyway) who sets about learning Irish is hardly going to throw in the towel when he/she encounters the relatively minor variations as in the case of cluinstin, leanstan, thuigbheáil and cha rabh - or the other way around: cloisteáil, etc.

'' Replacing the native dialects by an artificial dialect is not a solution.''


who is replacing it?

nonsense


As is the view no one speaks standard irish........

''Once again, you're basing your argument on the myth that people don't understand the other dialects. And as I said 100 times here, it's wrong. Watch TG4 or listen to RnaG.

My opinion is that standards are harmful for endangered languages if they are too much used, and replace the dialects. It makes diversity and richness disappear. People abandon the peculiarities of their dialect, to speak all the same way, more or less.''

myth - no.


the dialects live on - the standard is used also. has old irish dissapeared?

speak with words like tcífidh or any variant or acub or any variant etc etc

speak any sort of irish - and chances are the person will u understand you, that is of course if they are an irish speaker and of the decent standard



but - most languages have a standard for official and formal use - it just makes sense!

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has old irish dissapeared?

Indeed it has! (Cé gur féidir ná beadh Dennis ar aon intinn...)

hhhm no it has not - in speech yes, otherwise no.

Anyway - moot point.

Living speech is what we're talking about, not preservation on the page. So why even bring up Old Irish?

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'' Replacing the native dialects by an artificial dialect is not a solution.''

who is replacing it?

All those who think it's better to teach CO, to write in the CO without any dialectal feature, and in general, to use the CO rather than a dialect.

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the dialects live on - the standard is used also.

They live on and will live as long as people speak them. But most of the time, they're spoken mainly by native speakers. And their number is decreasing. And the dialects are not being taught.

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has old irish dissapeared?

You don't know what is Old Irish? Senghoídelc! int sentengae sin!

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but - most languages have a standard for official and formal use - it just makes sense!

Read again what I wrote about standard forms and endangered languages...
The problem is that the CO is not only used for official and formal use. (And anyway, even for formal use, why wouldn't a dialect be used?)