I'm trying to learn the song - Ta Mo Chleamhnas Deanta
a traditional song arranged by Van Morrison/Paddy Moloney.The line "Shiuil mise thoir agus shiuil mise thiar." is driving me nuts. Can anyone give me a phonetic pronunciation of those two words - Thoir & Thiar (East & West)?

Thanks!

Yes

Thoir is pronounced /her'/ (Gweedore: /hej/) ie. roughly "herr' "
Thiar is pronounced /hiər/, ie. roughly "hee-ur"

The r is pronounced in a different way too, ie. if they are pronounced properly, these two words sound a completely different way.

Thanks your pronunciation seems like the most correct I've gotten so far.

I've learnt these pronunciations with native speakers.

Most non-native speakers replace the Irish sounds by the closest English one, so many words, like thoir and thiar sound just the same way, something like "here" in English. But if you use the proper Irish sounds, your speech is much clearer...

I noticed in the Van Mprrison & The Chieftains album , Kevin Conneff sings the words Thoir & Thiar more like shoir & shiar. Do you suppose it's because the words are preceeded by mise, and he's just slurring them together? I also know he had a cleft palate.

I assume that when you use sh, you use it in the English way (palato-alveolar fricative). That may very well be the case that he is slurring them together, as you say. The h in every language is a very tenuous sound. Precede that by an unstressed schwa, and you would have what you mention. I am sure that this happens every day among Irish speakers, and it is understood. This could happen in a song that has words close to an "everyday speech" rhythm. My opinion is take the two (full pronunciation and rapid speech pronunciation), sing them, and find the natural rhythm that works for you. I wouldn't think about it too much, though, because I am sure Kevin Conneff didn't. I don't think the cleft palate affected the pronunciation.

quote:

Kevin Conneff sings the words Thoir & Thiar more like shoir & shiar.

You mean "soir" and "siar" I guess...

The song says "Shiúil mise thoir agus shiúil mise thiar" : I walked in the east and I walked in the west.

If you use soir and siar, it's correct although it's not the same meaning: I walked eastwards and I walked westwards.
But as you know, songs may have variations in their words.

What's the typical south Conamara/Ráth Chairn pronunciation for these words?

At Oideas Gael, my teacher was a young native speaker from the Meath gaeltacht and if I recall correctly, her pronunciation was closer to a drawn out 'earr' and 'orr'. There was no h sound as I recall... I don't know IPA.

Does this resemble Connacht Irish or was she just dumbing down her Irish for the beginners class that I was in?

I guess Connemara people would pronounce as I said...
I don't know if Ráth Cairn people dropped th- in such words... it would be surprising...

I actually found the same words pronounced the way I thought I heard Kevin Coneff of the Cheiftains sing it, but clearer and slower in the "Theme from Harry's Game" by Clannad. Check it out on YouTube, it's great!

Lyric excerpt:
"Imtheochaidh soir is siar..."
** I will go east and go west***

... "A dtáinig ariamh an ghealach is an ghrian"

Slan,
Kweeveen

quote:

At Oideas Gael, my teacher was a young native speaker from the Meath gaeltacht and if I recall correctly, her pronunciation was closer to a drawn out 'earr' and 'orr'. There was no h sound as I recall... I don't know IPA.

Thats interesting maybe thats how its prononced in Rath Chairn now, as Rath Chairn can be called another dialect, still Connemara features but the prononciation could be different.

Its been over a generation now of Irish speakers there, could Rath Chairn Irish be taken seriously now as a dialect for prononciation and to be studied?...

(Message edited by trigger on July 29, 2009)

I'm definately picking up a "sh" sound in "soir is siar", but I'm learning not to look for strict phonetic equivalents in English. Irish should be considered a game played by different rules.