I am not a master of English grammar so maybe thats why I can't figure this out but I once read that Irish word order goes like this

1. Preverbal Partical
2. Verb
3. Subject
4. direct object
5. indirect object
6. location
7. manner
8. time

the example I'll use is "Bím ag scríobh sa pháirc ar maidin"

Bím is a contraction for "Bí mé" so thats 2 and 3.
sa pháirc is the location and ar maidin is the time

so then I have this:
"(2)Bí / (3)mé / (?)ag scríobh / (6)sa pháirc / (8)ar maidin"

What is it called when you have something like "ag scríobh"? It has a preposition but its not the object of the sentence, its just a verb.

Scríobh is a verbal noun "writing". Ag is used with it to express the present progressive.

"Bim ag scríobh" is a verbal phrase with the subject suffixed to it. It's a package deal in this case.

From Wikipedia (Irish Verbs):

A progressive can be expressed with the preposition ag and is equivalent to the English present participle.

Tá Seán ag obair. "Seán is working."
Bhí Máire ag caint. "Máire was speaking."

Irish verb-nouns like scríobh don't fit comfortably into the categories inherited from Latin grammar. In some ways, they behave exactly like nouns. For instance, if the progressive construction has a nominal object, it is in the genitive, e.g. Bím ag scríobh na n-alt "I'm writing the articles". And if it has a pronominal object, this is represented by a possessive adjective rather than an object pronoun, e.g. Bím á scríobh "I'm writing them (or it)", never *Bím ag scríobh iad. On the other hand, clauses like ailt/iad a scríobh (e.g. as in Ba mhaith liom ailt a scríobh "I'd like to write articles") sure do look verbal.

I say don't sweat the terminology and just refer to it as a "verbal noun" with the understanding that it can't appear on its own but it always preceded by a preposition/particle[*] (and sometimes an object as well). After all, that's a very idealised model of an Irish sentence you have there and getting into great detail (e.g. pronominal direct objects used come at the end, time phrases often come at the beginning, etc.) would start to make it less useful.



[*] Yeah, I know that a in leabhair a scríobh is historically a worn-down form of the preposition do, that's no longer relevant to its current usage.

VSO word order appears in sentences with a single inflected* verb form (e.g. scríobh (sé), scríobhann (sé), scríobhaim, scríobhamar etc.)

*)inflected for mood, tense, person

Not inflected (i.e. non-finite) verb forms (i.e. verbal nouns*, and verbal adjectives) follow the subject:
Tá sé scríofa = It is written
Tá sé ag scríobh = He is writing
Tá sé le scríobh = It is to be written
etc.

*)with necessary particles/prepositions

To use your numbers: (2) is divided into (2a) and (2b)
(2a) (3) (2b) (6) (8).

Lars

quote:

"verbal noun" with the understanding that it can't appear on its own but it always preceded by a preposition/particle (and sometimes an object as well).

Not always. There's no particle/preposition in:
Ba mhaith liom fanacht (I'd like to stay)

BTW: In such non-finite clauses a different word order appears: SOV, subject - object - verb(al noun):
E.g. (Ba mhaith leis) mé an obair a dhéanamh (He prefers me to do the work)

Lars

A Phaploo,

Look at the "Word Order" Unit in Nancy Stenson's "Basic Irish"

Another question about word order.

I found this in a little kids book.

"Gasúr breá mánla ba ea Líomhán"

Can someone explain this sentence and the word order?

"Líomhán was a quite pleasant boy."

Ba is the past/conditional form of the copula and ea is an old neuter pronoun. This type of construction is typical of Munster; historically it may have been emphatic, but now it's equivalent to "Ba ghasúr breá mánla Líomhán."

See Lars' explanation here.

Go raibh maith agat a Dhaniel!

That makes more sense now and the link was very helpful

quote:

"Gasúr breá mánla ba ea Líomhán"

Can someone explain this sentence and the word order?

Gasúr breá mánla ba ea Líomhán.

gasúr breá mánla, the predicate, shifted to the left of the sentence and put at the very beginning.
ba, copula, past tense
ea, "it", a pronoun substitute for the predicate in normal position, i.e. referring back to "gasúr ...".
Líomhán, the subject of the sentence

So literally translated:
"an excellent gentle boy, was it Líomhán"

(instead of "normal" word order:
Ba ghasúr breá mánla (é) Líomhán
lit.:
"Was an excellent gentle boy (he) Líomhán")

Lars

(Message edited by Lars on July 28, 2009)

Agus scríbhneoir dathúil is ea Lars!

Sea!
Óſ bɼeá liom an leaṫanaċ ſeo:
http://www.daltai.com/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/daltai/discus/discus.pl?pg=formatting


Le meaſ
Laɼſ

quote:

Gasúr breá mánla ba ea Líomhán.

gasúr breá mánla, the predicate, shifted to the left of the sentence and put at the very beginning.
ba, copula, past tense
ea, "it", a pronoun substitute for the predicate in normal position, i.e. referring back to "gasúr ...".
Líomhán, the subject of the sentence

Go raibh maith agat a Lars. Tuigim anois.

I think I should read up on the copula a little more.

Are there certain times when one would want to change the word order with the predicate in the beginning? Is it for emphasis?

Lars wrote:

Gasúr breá mánla ba ea Líomhán.
Literally translated:
"an excellent gentle boy, was it Líomhán"

Instead of "normal" word order:
Ba ghasúr breá mánla (é) Líomhán.
Literally:
"Was an excellent gentle boy (he) Líomhán."

Paploo wrote:

Are there certain times when one would want to change the word order with the predicate in the beginning? Is it for emphasis?

I would like to know the answer to this too, please. For example, the less literal translation of the 'normal' sentence would presumably be "Líomhán was an excellent, gentle boy." Would that be the less literal translation of the 'abnormal' example as well, or would it have to be "An excellent gentle boy, was Líomhán"? To retain the less usual but more poetic style of the latter?

Originally it was for emphasis of the predicate.
And it is still considered so in Standard Irish grammars.
But it ís used in Munster Irish almost exclusively as the normal way to express such sentences without much emphasis.

Other possibilities are:
Anuraidh is éa a bhí muid ... (instead of Is anuraidh a bhí muid ...)
And with definite nouns (here é, í, iad instead of ea):
Linda ba í í (instead of Ba í Linda í)
Na Francaigh ba iad iad (instead of Ba iad na Francaigh iad)
etc.
The last ones are still used for emphasis.

Lars