Do you say.

ar tí tarlú

or

ar tí tarlaithe.

And do you say:

tar éis tarlú

or

tar éis tarlaithe.

Could you give me some more examples in these modes to firm up my understanding of all this?

GRMA.


By the way, where are Aonghus, Dennis King and Ormondo?

I haven't seen much from them recently. It would be a pity if they have disappeared, or whatever.

I think you'd use the nominative case in these contexts, in Modern Irish, because these are verbal nouns.

quote:

By the way, where are Aonghus, Dennis King and Ormondo?

Slain in battle!
Warriors from the east, each bearing a two-headed axe, raided their camp yesterday.
Aonghus, Dennis and Ormondo fought like lions but eventually fell, overwhelmed by the sheer number of the enemy.
Afterwards their camp was sacked, their shrines burned and their cattle and women taken!!!



:)

An raibh táin ann? Is mór an trua é sin!

FRC

Or alternatively, they're on their hols.

"Ar tí tarlú" and "tar éis tarlú" are the correct versions. What you have here is a compound preposition which governs the genitive case. But, and this is the catch, verbal nouns are not put in the genitive after such prepositions.

If you had an ordinary (non-verbal) noun there, then it certainly would be in the genitive: "tar éis dinnéir" (after dinner), "tar éis an turais" (after the trip) and so on. But verbal nouns are not put in the genitive in that context: "tar éis (don tubaiste) tarlú" (after [the catastrophe] happened), "tar éis imeacht (go Corcaigh)" (after leaving [for Cork]), "tar éis glacadh (leis an airgead)" (after accepting [the money]) and so on.

I'm sure there is a more complete account of this in some grammar book somewhere. What I've said here is just a preview.

Genitive is used with possessive pronouns:
tar éis a dhéanta
But tar éis é a dhéanamh

Lars

quote:

By the way, where are Aonghus, Dennis King and Ormondo?

Aonghus is usually recharging his batteries down here in Corca Dhuibhne at this time of year as far as I recall

Some examples with tar éis:

Mt12:9: Agus ***tar éis imtheachda*** as sin dó, tainic sé dá sinagógaibh súd.
Mt12:44: Agus ***tar éis techda*** dhí, do ghebh sí folumh, sgúabtha, deaghmhaiseach é.
Lk1:9: Do réir ghnáthuighthe oifige an tsagairt, gu ráinic dhó an túis do losgadh, ***tar éis dula*** a sdech gu teampoll an tighearna dhó.

chun does take the genitive of the noun object of the verbal noun (at least in Peter O' Leary, who the following examples are from):

chun na díobhála dhéanamh
an t-am chun na clainne theacht
chun na Gaeluinne do shaothrughadh


chun+genitive of verbal noun is long gone, but can be found in literature (the following examples from the 1602 New Testament):

is eisean an tÉlias úd do bhí chum teachda (Matthew 11:14)
Giodh bé aga bhfuil clúasa dochum eisdeachda, eísdeadh sé.
Do bhí an reachd agus na fáighe ann gu teachd dEoin: ó shoin a leith a tá ríoghachd (Matthew 11:15)
Dé dhá soisgélughadh, agus a tá gach uile dhuine a coinglinn do chum dola innte (Luke 16:16)

[note such usage is not evenly adopted in the 1602 NT, as there is evidence of a number of translators using different forms in that book]

A Mbm, a chara, go raibh 1,000 maith agat. D'fhoghlaim mé rud nua uait. É seo:

quote:

"Ar tí tarlú" and "tar éis tarlú" are the correct versions. What you have here is a compound preposition which governs the genitive case. But, and this is the catch, verbal nouns are not put in the genitive after such prepositions.

If you had an ordinary (non-verbal) noun there, then it certainly would be in the genitive: "tar éis dinnéir" (after dinner), "tar éis an turais" (after the trip) and so on. But verbal nouns are not put in the genitive in that context: "tar éis (don tubaiste) tarlú" (after [the catastrophe] happened), "tar éis imeacht (go Corcaigh)" (after leaving [for Cork]), "tar éis glacadh (leis an airgead)" (after accepting [the money]) and so on.

Táim an-tsásta gur féidir liom dul sa tóir ar an riail sin anois sa bhíobla .i. Graiméar Gaeilge na mBráithre Críostaí.

Mbm, (dear) friend, thank you for clarifying the above. In speech I would observe the rule without ever thinking about it. Unfortunately when writing one finds oneself applying "rules" that don't apply at all. Thanks again.

quote:

chun does take the genitive of the noun object of the verbal noun (at least in Peter O' Leary, who the following examples are from):

I think it'd be better to say "chun may take the genitive of the noun object of the verbal noun in Munster".