I am currently in a "social problems" course at my university, and last night we had a wonderful debate on the topic of language.

While we were looking at several case studies with language being the key problem, I couldn't help but think about Irish. After reading all the different case studies, mostly about Spanish speaking people in the United States, I started to wonder if Irish could cause similar problems in Ireland?

So here is my hypothetical situation, and please, this is only a hypothetical situation:

"...For some reason, one million people magically appear out of nowhere, and are now stranded on the Dingle Peninsula. They are all extremely attractive, unusually healthy, strong and hardworking, and rather intelligent. Also, they have an age range from 5-45 with a good mixture of families and single people. However, there is a situation here, they only speak Irish. In fact, none of these people have ever encountered a language other than Irish before..."

Now my questions are geared towards the people who live in Ireland, or have lived in Ireland but:

1) Could Ireland support or help these people, and what types of serious social problems would a sudden mass Irish only speaking population create for Ireland?

2) One million people is a large number, but Ireland has still not reached pre-Famine numbers, we know that in history there was an estimated 8 million people living on the island, and that islands of similar size such as Cuba can support several times that number. Is there enough room in Ireland for these people?

3) Would Ireland or the Irish people welcome these mythical people as Irish? They have no apparent origins, the only thing we know about them is that they are nice to look at and they only speak Irish?

4) And most importantly, would a lack of English be a serious problem in modern Ireland. I have been reading some Irish blogs in the internet about the Polish, and it seems that a common complaint being written by "some people" is the fact that a lot them don't speak English, and "some people" are having a hard time with this. But, what might be the case if the language being spoken was Irish instead of some other language? Irish being an official language would give one or one million the legal the right to speak it, and in theory, Ireland should be able to handle this officially. But what about normal Irish society such as the shops, the restaurants, the cinemas, the pubs, or any real Irish social event?

I have chosen this scenario for my final project of this course. I would love to hear feedback, thoughts, and reactions from anyone interested.

my guess (with 1M people) is that there would initially be a panic, and they would need to be housed somewhere. The group would need to be split up, and, assuming they have the money for new construction houses, there would be entire towns worth of people from this group. Those would be the easiest to find employment since a new town would need, well, everything.

Many would also likely go to cities and, like immigrant communities in the US, settle near each other in what would then become Gaeltacht neighborhoods. In the cities they may displace the workers you've mentioned from Poland et al in competition for jobs.

Once absorbed, I think the overall effect would be to strengthen the position of Irish as a community language and even establish it where it is not currently. Government services and private business currently struggle to afford services in Irish, but that would change if the country suddenly got 1/4 of its current population show up with Irish only. The new jobs offering Irish services could provide ready employment for these Irish speakers.

Parents like those in the article cited above get listened to due to the same four factors that present Irish's greatest threat to its survival.

first, the numbers are small for fluent speakers - so frequently it's not cost effective to do stuff in Irish if you're a business or department on a budget.

second, everyone who speaks Irish also speaks fluent (or almost fluent) english. And everybody knows it, so businesses know it's very little business they'll be losing if they refuse to accommodate Irish speakers.

Third, because Irish speakers also speak english, many don't feel it's worth their time to be the activist who insists on Irish. By the time you're finished arguing with the post office, and not getting an Irish speaker anyway, you could have had your stamps and been home.

Lastly, the arguments against Irish are usually framed in terms of cost vs practicality. In the US, parents insist their children be taught spanish in droves (many grudgingly), because they know that the population of speakers is large, monoglot (or pretends to be), and not going anywhere.

The population of spanish speakers in the US is much less than the proposed 4:1 ratio of Irish speakers you're proposing. And the Irish, while probably indignant at now having the need to learn Irish, are not likely to regard members of the group as "foreign," and thus it will be a civil resentment directed toward them, not an alien resentment as one can see with the Poles in Ireland or spanish speakers in the US.

just my 2¢

If these people make Ireland earn money, I'm sure the government will find a solution very quickly :-D

Hello Lughaidh, Antaine, and Ggn...

Well, realistically I understand that there isn't a nation on this planet who could handle this situation without serious problems.

There are certainly massive logistics involved such as housing, food, employment...

And without question, the acceptance of these people as Irish is going to be the key factor here. However, I am not certain that they would be accepted as Irish. Yes, they speak the Irish language, but that doesn't make them Irish. It does however make them Ireland's problem because most countries would assume Ireland the most logical setting for Irish speakers.

What I am curious about, and the focus of my research, is the effect of language itself on the matter.

But there is an added level in this case with Irish and Ireland. Ireland, with its Irish abilities could in theory communicate, or hopefully establish some base form of communication with these people. However, for the majority, Ireland herself is not Irish speaking at the moment. Assuming Ireland accepted these people, or even claimed them as Irish, they would be taking in complete strangers who speak a foreign language to them.

Given this will never happen, we can only pretend to know what would really happen, however, I am looking to see if it is possible to create a scenario based on the fact that the language is going to be a big factor.

For example:

Do people here think it would be a possibe response to force these people into already established Gaeltachts because of the language?

Do people here think it would be a possible response to create an entirely new Gaeltacht region just for these people?

Do people here think it would be a possible response to try and divide these people in order to force them to learn English and conform to contempory Ireland?

Would these people be considered by Ireland a minority group?

I know that there is a whole host of social issues like employment, housing, healthcare, crime, and other stuff. But these are the same problems that are being faced by every minority group or migration into Ireland.

I am hoping that people here from Ireland might be able to tell me about their opinions as to the most likely response to the above options on where to put these people, and how the country might view their language.

I personally believe that the current government would create a new Gaeltacht. The reason I say this is that from most of my reading on this site, along with those of the internet is that there might be a serious rejection of these people by the Gaeltachts themselves in order to preserve the their regional dialects from a sudden mass population that speaks something different.

But that's just my thinking.

Do people here agree?

Níl muintir na Gaeltachta chomh caolaigeanta sin. Is fíorbheag díobh atá chomh righin Gaelgóireach is a chuireann tú ina leith, gan glacadh le duine toisc canúint eile a bheith aige.

Gnáthdhaoine iad agus is iad na gnáthchúrsaí a dhéanfadh imní dóibh, má dhéanfadh rud ar bith: postanna, scoileanna, tithe.

Ba chás don rialtas a nGaeilgeoireacht, ar ndóigh, ach níor chás do phobal na Gaeilge í - agus pobal na Gaeilge atá ann, adeirim, ní hé pobail scaoilte na dtrí gcanúintí.


I very much doubt dialect preservation would be uppermost in most Gaeltacht people's minds. Language preservation, yes (for some people) - but dialect purity, no.

They'd be far more likely to worry about competition for jobs, schools and housing, just like a Galltacht community would.

Fr Harry Bohan in County Clare set up the Rural Resettlement Programme. So many social problems arise in rural Ireland due to lack of population and lack of development. A relative of mine availed of this programme, sold his house in Dublin, bought a little farm in the far south-west of Clare, turned up for Mass the following Sunday and was heartily welcomed by the local community. They knew extra people meant more trade in the shops, more teachers in the schools, and more young men for the GAA team. They welcomed new people.

When the African, Lithuanian, and Polish immigrants first came to Ireland they were dispersed to rural towns. At first the locals were hostile. Then they discovered the new people were super workers and delighted to do nixers for the most minimum of minimum wages. Astonished at their good fortune the locals employed them cutting turf, serving in shops and bars, and painting and repairing everything in sight. Turkish workers building a motorway were asked was there any chance they might have a bit of tarmac left over for the local church grounds. No sooner said than done. Everyone was delighted.

Perhaps the greatest surprise was the energy, intelligence, and sheer competence of the new workers. They had drive and skill and they put many's the poor old Irish worker lazing on his shovel to shame. They work and work and work hard. I have just paid a Polish guy €150 for spending eleven hours painting and cleaning. He's happy and I'm getting a good deal.

Irish is in no danger from these incomers. Three incidents reveal the Irish attitude to Irish when faced with foreigners:

I met a guy from India who could speak Irish quite well. I asked him how and why. His story was that he had been manager of a hotel and bar in Dublin. So many of his young customers insisted on speaking Irish in his presence and p******g him off, as he put it, that he decided to beat them at their own game. He learnt Irish and being already multilingual he learnt it quickly. That put a stop to them he said. They didn't even know Irish very well according to him.

Another yarn: I knew a Bosnian family fairly well in our local neighbourhood. The father told me his children were best in their class at school -- in Irish! They delighted in reciting Irish poetry for me when I called and singing songs as Gaeilge.

Many of the foreigners serving in bars and shops will reply to "Go raibh maith agat" with "Fáilte" or "Tá fáilte romhat". That happens to me frequently. If the Irish were serious about Irish the foreigners would row in (although the current court case relating to Irish-medium education sa Daingean may prove me wrong there.)

The crashingly intolerable frustration attached to learning Irish for Irish-born people is that even those 16-18 year olds who have learnt it really well for their Leaving Cert and despite their youthful enthusiasm are not allowed use it outside school. Just as Gaeltacht people are told to speak English in the neighbouring towns so young intelligent Irish people who would dare to try and speak Irish in public would quickly be dubbed "odd" or a "fanatic."

The foreigners living here don't know that. Irish youngsters can have great fun showing off their knowledge of Irish to them and they in turn think Irish is a well-known language and some of them go to the trouble of learning it themselves.

A million Irish-speakers to appear in Ireland? We'd be delighted. I'm not so sure about the British-inclined Unionists however. They are already peeved at all the use being made of Irish in the North! They have just driven a community of Romanians out of Ireland.

Hello Taidhgín,

Forgive me, I did not see your post.

I am happy to see there are some people in Ireland who can really call it a "land of welcomes."

There are some Irish themed bars in my city, and there is a lady from Dublin in one. I asked her this same question the other night as she waited on my table, and she said, "Good Lord, that would be a sight. I learned it in school and I love to speak it. And if one of those people happened to be a handsome single lad, I would never never another English word!"

If only there were more like her ;-) And sorry men, she is married. Believe me, I asked. LOL

Hello Abigail,

I want to believe that people would not concentrate on such a trivial matter, however, people seem to do funny things in extreme circumstances. For example, in the United States, the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina left thousands of people dead, missing, and without homes and employment. With a massive group of people demanding attention, we decided to divide them up and spread them out among the states. However, many states openly refused to take these people in. It took an act of congress, in the form of monetary incentives, to force these states to take people in.

Now while it was never officially said, the three states in question were white majority with a troubled "history" with African-Americans. Here we were in the 21st century, facing one of the most devastating natural disasters, and a large group of human beings in genuine need of assistance...and what happened? Deep rooted racial issues got in the way.

It just goes to show you that you do not know what a person, or people, will actually do when they are backed into a corner.

For example, you said that the current Gaeltachts would not put dialect preservation over language preservation.

However, lets create another hypothetical example to test that statement.

What if Ireland decided that in order to preserve the Irish language, the entirety of county Galway and only county Galway, will be given the official status of Gaeltacht. This is to force the members of the other Gaeltachts into a single area in order to increase the number of speakers in hopes of strengthening the usage base.

How would Galway and the other Gaeltachts react? My guess is rather negative. Why? Because the people of the other Gaeltachts have worked very hard to establish their uniqueness. And both groups would reject any massive change to this. Not to mention all the issues of housing, employment, and such.

I believe that unless these imaginary people spoke an Irish that was strikingly similar, there would be a general fear by purist and non-purist alike.

It took an act of congress, in the form of monetary incentives, to force these states to take people in.
Well, there you go. People were worried about the economic consequences of their community accepting a large group of 'immigrants' with no means of support. Money spoke, as it does. I don't see racism necessarily implicated... and even if it were, the idea that the Irish dialect wars are anywhere near as deep-rooted as that is laughable. To the extent they exist, they're mainly propagated by learners, university students, and a few grumpy old people.

quote:

the entirety of county Galway and only county Galway, will be given the official status of Gaeltacht. This is to force the members of the other Gaeltachts into a single area...

How would Galway and the other Gaeltachts react? My guess is rather negative.

Negative reaction - to being asked to pack up and move to another county? Gee, you think maybe?

That's a far cry from being nice to your new neighbors up the road.

Again, I don't think dialect preservation would be people's main concern (although it would undoubtedly become a convenient rallying point, and you could expect some people to adopt über-Munster and über-Ulster accents as a political statement.)

You seem to think the Irish language community is made up of linguists and zealots. I assure you that is not the case. It's mostly normal people, who happen to speak Irish.

(Message edited by Abigail on July 13, 2009)