"Is náisiún in iarthar na Sléibhte Piréiní í an Tír Bhascach"

Is the "í" in the above sentence (from Vicipéid) correct/necessary?

I think that this is the normal construction when using the copula is, where the subject of the sentence an Tir Bhascach is being classified. That is, in this case the sentence is translated into English as

The Basque country/land is a nation in the west of the Pyrenne Mountains.

This sentence is classifying the subject, so the form in Irish is:

Is [classification] [pronoun] [subject]

Corrections welcomed.

(Message edited by student on June 30, 2009)

Correct but unnecessary. I'd thought omission of the pronoun was non-CO and typical of Donegal Irish, but on checking my recently acquired second-hand copy of The Christian Brothers' "New Irish Grammar" lo what do I find but "Is fear Liam", "Ba rí Cormac" - not a pronoun in sight.

If I understand Ó Siadhail's Learning Irish correctly, the pronoun also proceeds the subject noun in the kind of sentence shown above, at least in the dialect of Cois Fhairrge.

quote:

"Is náisiún in iarthar na Sléibhte Piréiní í an Tír Bhascach"

Well actually i find the sentence quite strange. A country is not a nation. A nation is a group of people, not a place, and there are Basque people all over the world...

And the Basque country is called Tír na mBascach as far as I know, at least I always saw it named like that.

And as people said, "í" isn't mandatory in the sentence, you may remove it (at least in Donegal Irish).

quote:

Well actually i find the sentence quite strange. A country is not a nation. A nation is a group of people, not a place, and there are Basque people all over the world...

Actually, "nation" can indeed mean the country or territory occupied by the group of people. It's perfectly acceptable to say that England is a nation or the Basque Country is a nation. So there's nothing wrong with that. See for instance
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Nation

quote:

And as people said, "í" isn't mandatory in the sentence, you may remove it (at least in Donegal Irish).

Not mandatory, but it's not wrong either.

I never said it was wrong...

Go raibh maith agaibh go léir.

Unnecessary but used in certain dialects.

quote:

If I understand Ó Siadhail's Learning Irish correctly, the pronoun also proceeds the subject noun in the kind of sentence shown above, at least in the dialect of Cois Fhairrge.

Page 51: "The rule that in any copula sentence where the subject is definite .... it is preceded by the appropriate pronoun .... holds good"

So, from what's been said, he's referring to Cois Fhairge and not Irish in general.

Since asking the question I also came across the following in "Cruinnscríobh na Gaeilge":
"Uaireanta cé nach bhfuil gá leis, cuirtear forainm pearsanta (ar a dtugtar fo-ainmní) i gcomhaisnéis le hainmní ainmfhoclach cinnte ...."





A couple of pages later in the same book it states that in sentences of identification the order is as follows:
An Chopail - An Forainm - An tAinmní - An Fhaisnéis.
This surprised me as I had been convinces for some time that the predicate/faisnéis always follows the copula.*


From "Gnás na Gaedhilge"(pg. 145)
".... is é rian a bhí ar abairtíbh den tsaghas san i gcomhnuidhe 'ná 'is,' 'faisnéis,' 'adhbhar cainte' ; ach amháin nuair is mian leis an gcainteoir treise do chur leis an gcaint nó oirdhearcas fé leith do thabhairt don fhaisnéis nó don adhbhar cainte, cuireann sé a chothrom san d'atharú ar réir na habairte".

Perhaps, as this is an old book, it was once a rule but isn't any longer in the modern language?

If this is so how would you express the difference between "Cormac is the king" (i.e. not the prince, or the duke) and "Cormac is the king" (i.e. not Peadar or Domhnall)?

*Is the pronoun in a sentence like "Is é Seán an Garda" a "foraimn réamhthagrach" taking the place of the predicate after the copula?

(Message edited by James_Murphy on July 01, 2009)

Does no-one have any answers at all to those last three questions?

No, the 'faisnéis' doesn't always follow the 'copail'.

Cé hé an garda? Is é an fear an garda. (an fear = faisnéis)
Cé hé an fear? Is é an fear an garda. (an fear = ainmní)

Or:
An tú an garda? (tú = ainmní)
An tusa an garda? (tusa = faisnéis)

quote:

Is é Seán an Garda" a "foraimn réamhthagrach"

Yes, it's called "fófhaisnéis"

Word order is here:
copail - fofhaisnéis - ainmní - faisnéis
It's used with proper names, nouns+seo/sin/úd, subclauses.
Is é an fear seo an garda (an fear seo = ainmní)
Is é Seán an garda (Seán = ainmní)
Is é mo thuairim go bhfuil ... (mo thuairim = ainmní)
And sometimes with "normal" nouns as well (See above: Is é an fear an garda)

Afaik you cannot say: "*Is é an rí Cormac"
Cormac always comes first:
Cé hé an rí? Is é Cormac an rí. (Cormac = faisnéis)
Cé hé Cormac? Is é Cormac an rí. (Cormac = ainmní)

Lars


(Message edited by Lars on July 01, 2009)

Sorry, James, I have only just read the thread and I'm not sure I know what three questions you mean. I'm not even sure I know what a predicate is and I'm too old to learn.

Most of us when composing a new phrase using an chopail would base it on an old tried and trusted phrase such as "Is é Dia an Fear is Fearr" (title of a book "God is best" or "God is the best man of all" etc) or "Is é fáth mo bhuartha nach bhfaighim cead cuarta ar an ngleanntán uaigneach mar a mbíonn mo ghrá." [[NB. Nota Bene: not "an fáth mo bhuartha" - the cause of my agitation / sorrow XXX ]]

quote:

If this is so how would you express the difference between "Cormac is the king" (i.e. not the prince, or the duke) and "Cormac is the king" (i.e. not Peadar or Domhnall)?

*Is the pronoun in a sentence like "Is é Seán an Garda" a "foraimn réamhthagrach" taking the place of the predicate after the copula?

Q 1
"Cormac is the king" (i.e. not the prince, or the duke) = "Is é an rí ná Cormac"
Q 2
"Cormac is the king" (i.e. not Peadar or Domhnall)= "Is é Cormac an rí"
Q 3
Yes (but don't trust me.)

The prayer that was recited like a mantra long ago began "Is é do bheatha, a Mhuire, atá lán de ghrásta". I haven't a clue what "Is é do bheatha" means other than that it is the formal greeting among some old people in Iorras:

Is é do bheatha, a Phádraig.
Go maire tú, a Sheáin.

Nice? Beats "Dia dhuit" and "Dia's Muire dhuit"? Now I'm in trouble. "Go mbeannaí Dia dhuit" is what they say with plenty of wellie on the "eann" of "Go mbEANNaí Dia dhuit". That really gets a response. They think you know Irish and can talk to you safely in their normal speech. "Duine dinn fhéin thú!" (You are one of ourselves!) - a real compliment.

OK. Back to the original question:

quote:

"Is náisiún in iarthar na Sléibhte Piréiní í an Tír Bhascach"

I think I know what is wrong with that sentence. It probably should read: "Náisiún in iarthar Shléibhte na bPiréiní is ea Tír na mBascach."

Before anyone says: Tut Tut! An CO arís! It has nothing to do with an CO. It is just careless Irish. You did well to spot it James. Look up "ea" for its usage and it may clarify aspects of An Chopail.

Go raibh míle maith agaibh beirt.
That was very informative. I'm a few steps further on the road to finally 'getting my head round' the copula.
I'll be printing this thread out for future reference :)

quote:

Is é do bheatha, a Phádraig.
Go maire tú, a Sheáin.

It means "welcome" and Seán is probably at his home.

quote:

I think I know what is wrong with that sentence. It probably should read: "Náisiún in iarthar Shléibhte na bPiréiní is ea Tír na mBascach."

Generally, both are OK:
- Is naisiún X (í) an Tír na mB.
- Naisiún X is ea an Tír na mB.
But if X is a very long and clumsy phrase (as in "in iarthar Shléibhte na bPiréiní" the second version is better and more clearly arranged.
Other possibilities:
- Is é an Tír na mB. ná naisiún X
- Naisiún X atá i dTír na mB.

Lars

quote:

Generally, both are OK:
- Is naisiún X (í) an Tír na mB.
- Naisiún X is ea an Tír na mB.
But if X is a very long and clumsy phrase (as in "in iarthar Shléibhte na bPiréiní" the second version is better and more clearly arranged.
Other possibilities:
- Is é an Tír na mB. ná naisiún X
- Naisiún X atá i dTír na mB.

Not "an Tír na mBascach" surely Lars - that introduces "double definitiveness". I would say "Tír na mBascach" on its own without an article (the article would be right if the phrase was "an Tír Bhascach"). So these would be
possibilities
- Is naisiún X (í) Tír na mB.
- Naisiún X is ea Tír na mB.
- Is é Tír na mB. ná naisiún X
- Naisiún X atá i dTír na mB.

Yes these are right.

By the way, in passing I'd like to say that using "ná" before the predicate (as in "Is é Tír na mBascach ná náisiún X") is a Munster thing. I often hear learners from everywhere using it, even people from Ulster, but I think it's not something that would be used in Ulster (for Connachta I don't think so either but I'm not sure).

That "ná" has no meaning and may be removed if you're not from Munster or if you don't want to speak Munster Irish :

Is é an rud is fearr liom ná leabhar maith a léamh.
>
Is é an rud is fearr liom leabhar maith a léamh.

quote:

Not "an Tír na mBascach" surely Lars - that introduces "double definitiveness". I would say "Tír na mBascach" on its own without an article (the article would be right if the phrase was "an Tír Bhascach").

You are right.
I wrote "an Tír B." first and then I changed it to "Tír na mB." and forgot to delete the first article.

Lars

Mm, maybe at one point, but I'd say that ship has sailed. It's quite common (although not ubiquitous) in Connemara Irish these days, and I've also heard native speakers from Donegal using it on occasion.

Not hard to see why, either, as it helps break up long copula sentences. You could think of it as a sort of verbal punctuation mark.

Tá's agam sin. Síleam gurb iad na meáin Ghaeilge is cúis leis sin. Chan dóigh liom go n-úsáidtí "ná" sa chás sin i gConnachta ná in Ultaibh 20 bliain ó shoin, abair. Agus chan é achan duine a úsáideas é anois ach an oiread.

Murab é, ní hé lucht foghlama amháin, faoi mar a bhí le tuiscint ón méid a dúradh cheana. Sin an mhíthuiscint ar mhian liom a bhréagnú.

Déarfainn féin go mb'fhaide siar a rian san iarthar ná fiche bliain, ach níl samplaí ar bharr mo mhéar agam. Is féidir liom a dhearbhú go bhfuil sé in úsáid ag na seandaoine ar an Sruthán - agus má mheastar féin gur ón raidió a thóg siad sin é, tá sé sa gcanúint anois acu agus níorbh fhéidir bheith ag súil go seachnódh aos óg é, ach oiread leis an "tá mé togha" a chuireanns lucht na ngráiméar ar buile.

D'fhéadfá a rá gurb iad na meáin Ghaeilge is cúis leis, ar ndóigh, óir mura labhródh na daoine lena chéile i gcéin, mura gcloisfidís caint ó lá go lá seachas caint na gcomharsan, níor bhaol don Ghaeilge a leithéid seo de mheascadh is de thruailliú. D'fhéadfá sin a áiteamh agus b'fhíor dhuit é, níor bhaol. Ná níor bhaol di a leithéid de bheocht ach oiread.

De réir Shán O Cuív baintear (nó baineadh i 1929 pé scéal é) feidhm as "ach" i gceanntair áirithe lasmuich de Mhumhain sa staid chéadna i n-abairt mar a n-abróchadh Muimhneach "ná".

Tá an ceart ag Lughaidh maidir le "ná" ach is áisiúil an focal é don té nach bhfuil ró-chinnte de struchtúir na copaile.

\quote["Is é Tír na mBascach ná náisiún X") }

Nílim cinnte nach bhfuil iarracht de bhotún gramadaí san abairt sin. Níl a fhios agam beo cad é ná cad a bheadh i gceist le X ansin.

D'fhéadfainn abairtí mar seo a shamhlú:
Is é Tír na mBascach an tír is fearr liom ar domhan.
Is é Tír na mBascach an náisiún is bríomhaire sa leithinis.

Go hiondúil fágtar an chopail ar lár i gcásanna mar sin. Bhíodh crochtáin éadaí againn fadó agus greanta san adhmad bhí "An tSualainn tír a dhéanta". (Made in Sweden). Is beag Gaeilgeoir a bheadh in ann abairt mar sin a chumadh anois.

Dá mbeifeá le tosú le "Séard" nó "Is é rud is Tír na mBascach [ná] náisiún cian-ársa faoi chois" bheadh dul na Gaeilge ar an abairt.

quote:

Murab é, ní hé lucht foghlama amháin, faoi mar a bhí le tuiscint ón méid a dúradh cheana. Sin an mhíthuiscint ar mhian liom a bhréagnú.

Tá's agam, chualaidh mé Mairéad Ní Mhaonaigh a' baint úsáid as an "ná" sin uair amháin in agallamh. Síleam go dtig rudaí mar sin isteach ina cuid Gaeilge ó am go chéile siocair go labhrann sí le cuid mhór daoiní a labhras canúintí éagsúla - chan dóigh liom go n-úsáidfeadh an gnáthchainteoir as GD feidhm as an "ná" sin.