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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2009 (July-August) » Archive through July 16, 2009 » Some thoughts on "Why don't X do more for Irish" « Previous Next »

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 8497
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Sunday, June 28, 2009 - 08:43 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Recently we had a thread asking why the GAA don't do more for Irish. Somebody else pointed out that mass in Irish is only regular in the Gaeltachtaí and in Dublin.

The reason is quite simple. Few organisations have the revival of Irish as an intrinsic goal. Some organisations contribute to the revival of Irish - but only because some of those concerned with the main goals of the organisation also care deeply about Irish.

The Catholic Church in Dublin is a good case study.

When mass began to be siad in the vernacular, an organisation called "Pobal an Aifrinn" was set up in 1973, to organise and encorage mass in Irish. Eventually (in 2000!) the diocese set up a committee to organise regular mass in Irish, at least one in each deanery.

This has recently been renewed.
http://www.dublindiocese.ie/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1307&Itemi d=363

http://www.dublindiocese.ie/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1096&Itemi d=505

Some members of various orders have also had a long history of supporting Irsih - in particular the franciscans (think Louvain) and the Jesuits.

see e.g. http://sacredspace.ie/ie/

http://www.cumannnasagart.ie/index.php?option=content&task=blogcategory&id=27&It emid=56

http://www.cumannnasagart.ie/

But the pattern in all cases is the same - action by dedicated individuals who share the goals of the organisation but who also love Irish, and are prepared to go to additional trouble for that reason.

Top down methods usually wither quite rapidly into tokenism.

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(Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Sunday, June 28, 2009 - 10:26 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Aonghus, the Fransciscans and Jesuits have a long history of supporting the Mass in Latin. Any history of supporting it in Irish will only date back as far as the 1960s.

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Brídmhór
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Username: Brídmhór

Post Number: 22
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Sunday, June 28, 2009 - 12:54 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Before the 2nd Vatican Council in 1962, all Masses in every country were in Latin. So they couldn't have Irish Mass before then. The only part in the native language was the sermon.

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Pádraig
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Username: Pádraig

Post Number: 811
Registered: 09-2004


Posted on Sunday, June 28, 2009 - 01:16 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

That would have been an ideal time to introduce the Irish since most of the congregation were accustomed to a language it didn't understand. I picked up most of my Latin from one of those double columned Missals that had Latin and English side by side. If Irish were substituted for Latin fifty years ago, a lot of Irish might have rubbed off on a lot of parishioners by now.

Is ait an mac an saol agus fáilte roimh cheartúcháin.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 8498
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Sunday, June 28, 2009 - 02:01 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

the Fransciscans and Jesuits have a long history of supporting the Mass in Latin



I wasn't referring only to the Mass.
But both orders have a long history of producing devotional literature in Irish. And the Franciscans in Louvain were key to compiling annals and other works in Irish.

The four masters were Franciscans.

Pádraig,
That would have defeated the purpose of the reforms, which was to make the order of the Mass more intelligible to the mass of the laity.

But, at least in Dublin, it is not difficult to find Sunday mass in Irish.

All of which is beside the point I was making, which is that organisation X will only do things for Irish if some of the members of organisation X care enough about it.

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Taidhgín
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Username: Taidhgín

Post Number: 377
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Sunday, June 28, 2009 - 06:18 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I understand your point, Aonghus, and unfortunately there is a corollary: where some members of organisation X detest the very existence of Irish they can undo the work of an enthusiast very quickly. In the Civil Service from the '30s to the '60s there had been a considerable attempt made to conduct some of the work through the medium of Irish but when Dev retired and Lemass took over all the stationery was issued in English only. Irish was sidelined, then removed as a required subject for entrants to the service. Now no one knows it in the Civil Service and those who do may expect to be paid more if required to use it since it was never part of their job spec.

Thankfully with the introduction of the Acht Teangan and Stádas many Government Departments will have to employ people competent in Irish again.

Unfortunately the old anti-Irish party in the South is building up a head of steam again and may find themselves in power at any time. Woe betide anyone seeking to promote or preserve Irish then. It will be made optional in the education system -- just as it is in the North and as the Gaidhlig is in Scotland. If people want it they can learn it at home or in their own time. Mahaffy will be pleased.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 8501
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Monday, June 29, 2009 - 02:51 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Is fíor dhuit.
Mionlach díograiseoirí ar chaon taobh, agus tionchar thar a méid acu.

Tá mo dhóchas san Stát agus fiú san Acht ag trá - i bhfianaise Foinse a bheith ligthe i ndísc, mí-éifeacht folús na Gaeilge agus Tadhg an dá thaobhachais an Aire ar an gceist seo.

Anocht is gruama Éireann.

(Message edited by aonghus on June 29, 2009)

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Ggn
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Username: Ggn

Post Number: 47
Registered: 08-2008
Posted on Monday, June 29, 2009 - 07:02 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

There is also an Irish mass in Belfast.

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Alexderfranke
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Username: Alexderfranke

Post Number: 46
Registered: 05-2008
Posted on Monday, June 29, 2009 - 10:31 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

This shows exactly that Ireland is far away from bilingualism. Otherwise in every organisation would be people to be concerned about Irish.
The worst thing to happen would be the case that Irish would not be offered any more in primary schools after being made optional, but only in secondary schools. On the other hand, let's be honest. Although being compulsory, some Irish people are looking at you as if you were talking in Chinese if you speak Irish. Only those interested in Irish become active and competent speakers. The others forget most of it. But it must be made sure that every child gets in touch with Irish. Therefore Irish should remain compulsory in primary education. In Ireland it ought never become as it is in France, where many pupils who want to take lessons in a regional language, do not have the offer at school. In Gaeltacht areas education must remain
through the medium of Irish only.
Alex

(Message edited by AlexderFranke on June 29, 2009)

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Taidhgín
Member
Username: Taidhgín

Post Number: 378
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Monday, June 29, 2009 - 04:46 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Aontaím leat, a Aonghuis, gur bocht an rud é FOINSE a ligean ar lár. Ar baineadh an láithreán den Idirlíon go fóill? Seans maith nach mbeidh a leithéid de nuachtán Gaeilge clóbhuailte arís ann. I dtuilleamaí BEO! a bheidh Gaeil feasta.

Aontaím leatsa freisin, a AlexderFranke, ach amháin nuair a deir tú:
quote:

Only those interested in Irish become active and competent speakers. The others forget most of it.

Within this group there is a full spectrum of ability from the almost fluent down to those with hardly any memory of Irish.

It is important to remember that given a situation where Irish was required of them for a job or a social situation such as friendship with an Irish-speaker or a lucrative contract in the heart of the Gaeltacht most of these "others" could very easily aquire fluency based upon their hitherto dormant knowledge of the language.

Where there is the slightest social support for the language many of these marginal Irish-speakers display a totally unexpected proficiency in the language that would never be revealed to the casual visitor. They won't go to search it out but many of them can cope with Irish very well.

This is the main reason why the Government should become an enthusiastic pro-active user of Irish itself. Otherwise it is merely continuing with the Imperial objective to eradicate Irish and make the country totally English-speaking. In other bilingual areas such as the city of Brussels both communities, the Flemings and the Walloons, are entitled to 100% of services in their own language. Even though the Flemings are only between 20% and 40% of the population of Brussels they are entitled to 100% service in their own language.

In Ireland the tendency among English-only Irish people is to say "All Irish-speakers have English. There is no need to give them service through Irish. Since active Irish-speakers are only XX% of the population they need only be given a similar level of service by the State."

That is wrong. When that attitude changes and the Government accepts the spirit of the Constitution much more Irish will be seen and heard and those marginal speakers will find opportunities to use their knowledge without embarrassment.

No matter what percentage of the population may claim to use the Irish language they are entitled to 100% services in Irish. Many other European countries will find themselves defending their own languages against the major international languages in time to come just as we have to do now. We can lead the way. We are on the linguistic border with English just as the Flemings are with French.

The situation is never as bad as it might seem.

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(Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Monday, June 29, 2009 - 05:19 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Thaidhgín,

your post makes sense. It is a principle that all services should be available in Irish, and one could even say services should be available in Irish first, before English, given that Irish is the official language.

But given that there is only a limited pool of native speakers left and very fluent speakers, we must question if this is the best use of the resources left. There are people fluent in Irish employed in translated regulations on fluoridation of water into Irish - and Irish that people in the Gaeltacht wouldn't even understand, as they wouldn't know the Irish word for fluoridation - which no one even requests in Irish, and few request in English.

One could violate the principle of service availability in Irish if it were in the framework of a wider attempt to rescue the language. Eg by a massive extension of Gaelscoileanna. The people translated nonsense into Irish would be better employed in the Gaelscoileanna.

I get the principle involved, but I just think a better result could be achieved by a different employment of the human resources available.

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Dahtet
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Username: Dahtet

Post Number: 6
Registered: 11-2008
Posted on Tuesday, June 30, 2009 - 07:47 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

If it's a choice between (1) spending the money to translate reports on water fluoridation in a Galltacht area that very few people will read in any language or (2) spending the money to ensure that the teachers and textbooks needed for Irish-medium education (of which there are sometimes severe shortages) are in place...

(Message edited by Dahtet on June 30, 2009)

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Taidhgín
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Username: Taidhgín

Post Number: 382
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Tuesday, June 30, 2009 - 11:04 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I understand the point, but, ... there is always a "but" -- an alternative point of view .... people who are opposed to the use of Irish -- and I am not suggesting for one moment that you Unregistered Guest or you Dahtet are opposed to the use of Irish -- people who are opposed to the use of Irish will say there is no need to use Irish in any context. Why publish books of poetry in Irish that "no one will read". Why publish a newspaper in Irish that only about 7,000 people read. Why "waste money" on a television channel or a radio station. Why support a school teaching through the medium of "an almost dead language". Negative views on the language are numerous.

Here's the positive side: translating reports on water fluoridation causes Irish scholars to come up with good terminology in Irish and illustrate over and over again that Irish is a sophisticated langauge quite capable of any and every role demanded of a modern language.

The scientist Witgenstein said "the limits of my language are the limits of my world". If Irish is to be used only for kelp, cladach, and cowshed it will not appeal to young scholars. It must be demonstrated over and over again that it is capable of expressing anything and everything within the range of human experience.

There is another aspect. That of creating employment for these young Irish language scholars. Even if there were no product it might be worthwhile supplementing the Social Welfare Jobseekers Allowance to have them working away on the development of the Irish language. At least they are at home earning their living from their knowledge of Irish. Is that good?

I know many of them work abroad in Brussels and Spain and in other parts of the world. Nevertheless there is an objective there for the young Irish scholar to try harder to master the language and widen it out for modern usage.

As you and I well know -- or should I say that I at least well know -- that when I speak or write Irish I find myself bringing in terminology, phrases, and even whole sentences from English because I have never heard such concepts expressed in Irish.

What of the teachers in the Gaelscoileanna? Are they to create the language as well as teach it? What of the broadcasters? Will they not refer to the Irish version of the Tuarascáil ar "Water fluoridation" cibé Gaeilge atá air sin -- when they need to report on some conspóid relating to the topic.

The translators are bringing Irish into the 21st Century and putting it on a par with any other sophisticated language in the world. They are pioneers. We should applaud them. Hostile eyes will see their achievements and deride them.

From the point of view of the future use of Irish as a living language these translators are supplying examples of how to use the language in particular contexts new to the language.

While I love the old medieval texts and early nature poetry "Mise, agus Pangur Bán, mo chat" etc translating such literature to English for a world audience may make lots of money for those who choose to regard Irish as a dead language to be raked over and made available to people who will never bother to learn the modern language let alone use it, does nothing to promote modern Irish as a living language.

Working in the modern language itself as the translator does and bringing it to life in a modern context is far more exciting and beneficial to the bilingual community. I hope there will be far more of it done -- especially in the field of printed signage, displays, and websites, as well as the aural messages that I mentioned before. Hopefully creative literature will follow.

If we were to go by the situation as it is today nothing would ever be done. Everything to do with Irish is done in hope that "every drop of oil will make the lamp burn brighter" and that eventually the Irish language may enter a phase of self-sustaining natural growth. Every Gaelscoil demonstrates what is possible as, indeed, do good teachers in whatever school they teach. The Government must persuade every publicly funded organisation to step up to the plate and play its part in promoting the use of our own Constitutional National Language. They are not part of the UK.

There is no point in educating Gaeltacht children through Irish or those living outside the Gaeltacht being educated in Gaelscoileanna if the adult population and the "powers that be" make no use of the language in any other context than education. Children cop on to the fact that "Irish is only for school" and drop it afterwards.

Being called upon to translate reports and such like by 600 public bodies and Civil Service departments provides encouragement. It also ensures a little flow of income for Irish language scholars. Is that bad?

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Alexderfranke
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Username: Alexderfranke

Post Number: 49
Registered: 05-2008
Posted on Tuesday, June 30, 2009 - 11:50 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

By the way: In many Irish texts on the web I see fewer foreign and English words than in German texts on the web!

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Dahtet
Member
Username: Dahtet

Post Number: 7
Registered: 11-2008
Posted on Wednesday, July 01, 2009 - 07:46 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Taidhgín, you seem to misunderstand. My point is NOT that translation into Irish should be stopped or massively reduced. In an ideal world of course, everything would be translated. But in the real world there's only a certain amount of money available for Irish. Therefore the best use possible of the finite resources needs to be made. What I would suggest would be along the following lines

Galltacht: Don't insist on all the water fluoridation (fluairídiú uisce) etc reports being translated

The money and translators' time saved would help towards the following

Galltacht: Make sure that the basic stuff that people are actually likely to use is available in Irish (that is too often not the case at present).
Gaeltacht: Make sure everything including the fluairídiú uisce is available in Irish
Nationwide: Gaelscoileanna and other aspects of Gaeltacht preservation and Galltacht revival.

It's not a question of stopping translation, putting an end to new terminology or translators losing jobs.

(Message edited by Dahtet on July 01, 2009)

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Taidhgín
Member
Username: Taidhgín

Post Number: 383
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 01, 2009 - 09:59 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

OK. I accept that. I agree that better use could / should be made of resources.

Unfortunately any money saved in one area of the use of Irish will not necessarily be put to good use elsewhere. I remember when the LOTTO was introduced. One of the attractions was that proceeds would be devoted to the promotion of the Irish language. We all assumed these were to be ADDITIONAL funds. Not a bit of it. Funding for the Coláistí Samhraidh, Foras na Gaeilge or Comhdháil or whatever was there at that time were all shunted over to the LOTTO funding and no additional funding was made available. Now the Irish language funding was in a worse state than before. Instead of having a line in the spending of tax revenue budget it was now sidelined to a precarious source of funding that depended on people's attitude to gambling. That only showed how marginal the Government regarded it.

I thought it worthwhile to try and record the arguments in favour -- if only to try and work them out for myself and see how people would receive them.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 8517
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Thursday, July 02, 2009 - 05:43 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A lot of guff is talked about translation.

First of all, there are two main areas where translation is required.
1) Legislation - primary and secondary, Irish and European. Personally, I think this is essential. Without it, important arms of the state cannot function through Irish. It is true that few people will read the legislation in its entirety. But many people will be exposed to application forms etc which are drawn from the legislation. And the courts are an important domain for vindicating the rights of Irish speakers.

2) The very small number of additional documents required to be translated due to the official languages act. The cost of doing this has been shown to be frequently exaggerated. The objective of the act was that documents which were intended to be communications with the public should be in Irish. Annual reports and statements of policy are specifically mentioned - because these are the main documents which a government body uses to communicate with the public. Regretably, these are not often read - for the simple reason that they are usually - either deliberatly or carelessly - badly written verbiage - meamráiméis.
If they were well and elegantly written, they would be read. And they matter.



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