How would you say:

I see the man who is from France

I thinking maybe:

Feicim an fear is as an bhFrainc.
Feicim an fear atá ón bhFrainc.

Are any of these sentences correct? I'm figuring they are both ok but I just want to be sure.

Thanks in advance, for your knowledgeable help!

The right sentence would be:

Feicim an fear arb as an bhFrainc dó/é (Standard & Connemara, I guess)
Tchíom an fear arb as an Fhrainc dó/é (Ulster)
Cím an fear gurb ón bhFrainc dó/é (Munster)

Feiceann mé an Francach. I see the Frenchman.

capital letter, lowercase letter is rat.


Feiceann mé fear Charna.
Feiceann mé an fear as Carna.

I'm not saying Lughaidh is wrong. It's just there are shorter ways of saying it, but maybe not Caighdéanach.

The pronoun ''mé'' is used in present tense for ''I'' in Conamara Irish.

A Bhrídmhór,

Some time ago we were discussing at this forum the use of verbs and it was made "clear" to me that native Irish speakers wouldn't use the pronoun "mé" such as with "feiceann mé" but would instead always use the shorter form such as "feicim." To use the form "feiceann mé" I was told was always a sign of someone who was just learning the language since fluent speakers never spoke like that.

Could you confirm that in Connamara the form is "feiceann mé" and not "feicim?"

Go raibh maith 'ad.

quote:

Some time ago we were discussing at this forum the use of verbs and it was made "clear" to me that native Irish speakers wouldn't use the pronoun "mé" such as with "feiceann mé" but would instead always use the shorter form such as "feicim." To use the form "feiceann mé" I was told was always a sign of someone who was just learning the language since fluent speakers never spoke like that.

That's wrong, there are several places where people may say "-nn mé" things in the present tense. It's common in Donegal, and may be heard in Connachta too.

quote:

Could you confirm that in Connamara the form is "feiceann mé" and not "feicim?"

Both do exist.
You can see that on p. 961 in the book 'The Irish of Iorras Aithneach' (you can download it for free on the DIAS site).

Yes, but the "mé" isn't emphasized. It's hard to explain.

quote:

Feicim an fear arb as an bhFrainc dó/é (Standard & Connemara, I guess)

I'm sorry, I’m not sure I understand. What is arb? I haven’t learned this form in my book Learning Irish. From a quick look on Gramadach na Gaeilge website, I'm guessing that it is probably the indirect relative form of the copula (in Cois Fhairrge ar).

Feicim an fear arb as an bhFrainc é

But how would that make any sense? The object (an fear) referenced by the copula isn’t in a prepositional relation. So how could it be an indirect relative? My logic tells me it should be a direct relative (with the form is) because it is the subject of the next clause. Then again I might just be totally lost!

Can anyone please help me understand this properly? It is truly just confusing me a this point.

Go raibh maith agaibh, aríst!

You wrote an fear and é in red.
And that's already the answer!
The pronoun "é" is anaphoric and so referring back to "an fear" (i.e. an fear = é)

Such pronouns occur in indirect relative clauses only.
(The pronouns "air = on him" or "a = his" are just other examples of anaphoric pronouns. It doesn't matter whether it is a prepositional, possessive, or whatever kind of relation.)

Compare:
an fear a bhfuil gruaig rua air = the man who has red hair
an fear a bhfuil gruaig rua ar a mhac = the man whose son has red hair
an fear arb as Doire é = the man who is from Derry.

A direct relative clause could be used only in absence of any anaphoric pronoun in the relative clause.

Lars

(Message edited by Lars on June 23, 2009)

"ar" is the indirect relative form of "is", you're right.

Before a vowel sound, it becomes "arb". (For the past tense it becomes "arbh").

People don't say "Seo mo chara is as Sasanna é", however they do say "Seo an leabhar is fearr liom". I prefer to learn this stuff from habit rather than trying to devise a complex grammatical rule.

quote:

Feiceann mé an fear as Carna.

Following your example then, one could simply say:

Feicim an fear as an bhFrainc.--------> I see the man from France

Would that be correct?

Go raibh maith agaibh!

quote:

You wrote an fear and é in red.
And that's already the answer!
The pronoun "é" is anaphoric and so referring back to "an fear" (i.e. an fear = é)

Such pronouns occur in indirect relative clauses only.
(The pronouns "air = on him" or "a = his" are just other examples of anaphoric pronouns. It doesn't matter whether it is a prepositional, possessive, or whatever kind of relation.)

Thanks Lars! I didn’t know the indirect relative could be used in constructions of the sort with an anaphoric pronoun. Are there any other instances where indirect relatives and anaphoric pronouns are used jointly aside for prepositional and genitive relations?

Similarly, while doing some research, I discovered that a direct relative can often be converted to an indirect relative. In such circumstances an indirect relative is used with the addition of an anaphoric pronoun in the clause. I read all of that off the internet so I’m a bit uncertain about it.

Could you tell me please if these sentences are correct. I want to be sure I understood properly.

Feicim an bhean a phósfaidh/phósfas an fear.

Feicim an bhean a bpósfaidh an fear í.


Both phrases are supposed to mean "I see the woman whom the man will marry". One sentence uses the direct relative while the other one, the indirect relative.


Thanks again for all the help!

(Message edited by Angmar on June 25, 2009)

That's right. (Note that the first one could also mean "the woman who will marry the man"... in spite of that ambiguity it's by far the more common formulation.)

Go raibh maith 'ad, a Abigail

And what about the sentence i posted previously?

Feicim an fear as an bhFrainc.--------> I see the man from France

It seems perfectly correct to me following the example given by Brídmhór. I just want to make sure I got everything right.

quote:

And what about the sentence i posted previously?

Feicim an fear as an bhFrainc.--------> I see the man from France

It seems perfectly correct to me following the example given by Brídmhór. I just want to make sure I got everything right.

Look's fine to me and I don,t have a clue how it could be wrong. But, hey I'm only a beginner so I dunno... and you can never be too sure with Gaeilge ;-)

Maybe be somebody else would know for sure