Dad and I are here now studying and we need a confirmation. Could you say the following? We are trying to figure out correct usage of past participles.

Bhí sé feicthe an capall aréir. (The horse was seen last night).

We will leave the web page on till one of you guys/gals answers.

GRMA, The Fabers MacMhaolain
20:00 CST (Central time USA-Tuesday June 16)

Just a student's try - bhí an capall feicthe aréir.

21:48 Eastern Time

Wouldn't that be with the autononous form?

The horse was seen last night: Do chonacthas an capall aréir?

quote:

Do chonacthas an capall aréir?

That would be the Munster version, wouldn't it?

Tá blas an bhéarlachais air, dar liom. The Irish passive perfective construction normally expresses the immediate past, so it doesn't mesh well with the past tense. I would rather say Bhí an capall á fheiscint[*] aréir.

[*] "á fheiceáil" sna béalaibh de mhuintir Dhún na nGall, measaim.

Edit: Ta ceart agat, a Aoi Anaithnid, the autonomous form works here as well, though I find it a bit less colloquial.

(Message edited by Domhnaillín_Breac_na_dTruslóg on June 16, 2009)

Yeah, in such cases you'd use the autonomous form:

Chonacthas an capall aréir.
Chnacathas an capall aréir. M
Facas an capall aréir. C
Chainiceas an beathach aréir. U

Hey Guys:

Go raibh maith agaibh, ach we will look into each of these with our grammar book. We are now enjoying a gloine of good Chilean fion dearg.

Slán agus beannactai agaibh agus oiche mhait agaibh,
Fabers

I could go for some of that wine, Faber. Something nice for a steamy, summer night and my smoked pork sandwich. I know Chilean grapes are tasty.

Faberm, if , as likely, your grammar book is "standard" Irish, the only form you'll find is 'Chonacthas an capall aréir'. Since you've said you're of Ulster descent (like myself - Donegal) - 'beathach', as Lughaidh says above, is the usual word for 'horse' in Donegal, but only very old native speakers would write 'chainiceas'. Domhnaillín's version 'Bhí an capall á fheiscint aréir': I think it's 'fheiscint' only in Munster, 'fheiceáil' in the standard, including Donegal. Also, this construction, I think, indicates a continuing action - "...was being seen" rather than a completed, once only action - though I'm open to correction on that.
('Bhí an capall feicthe aréir' is a literal translation of the English and is wrong here.)

By "continuing action" I mean "progressive".

Thanks Hugo for pointing out my mistake. I think what I wrote was something like "The observed horse was last night." Sounds funny, even in English!

Hugo:

Thanks for writing. I think my Irish is becoming a mixture of Ulster and Muenster. I am tending to pick the verbs/nouns that come easiest to me. I've known the word "Capall" for awhile (was one of my first 5 words in Irish). It looks so much like the word "caballo" that I use all the time anyway with my ranch hands. The other word "beathach" is sort of like the Hebrew word for 'beast or cow". So now when I look at my horses and talk to them or talk to my Kerryman friend, we comment on horses such things as "Tá capall maith sin, agus is láidir é". I don't know if I'm speaking gibberish, but I'm speaking Irish! (at least our own Texas dialect!).

My dad and I worry somewhat that we don't sound like anyone else, but it is loads of fun to ask each other things like "M'aithair, Ar mhait leat ól tae roite? ( Hey dad, do you want iced tea?) He'll answer, "Ba mhait liom". I think anyone who hears us just thinks we're a couple of local poles or czechs. Never would they have a clue that we're speaking what we think to be irish. Who knows, maybe someday we'll have a gaeltacht in Grimes County Texas consisting of a few eccentric nuts like us! I even have taught a black guy at the at the local hardware story to say "Is fear mohr mé" (I'm the big guy! He gets a kick out of saying it). And I have both of Tom O'Carrolls mexican hands ask him every morning, "Conas tao tú?" I told them if they do that every day they might get a raise.

Thanks for the info. We had a great session last night. We are drilling each other on the past present and future of the Irregular verbs.....borrowing from the Ulster and Muenster recordings. Next week we'll do all of them on the "chart".

Wreaking havoc on Gaeilge in Texas,
FaberM

quote:

Faberm, if , as likely, your grammar book is "standard" Irish, the only form you'll find is 'Chonacthas an capall aréir'. Since you've said you're of Ulster descent (like myself - Donegal) - 'beathach', as Lughaidh says above, is the usual word for 'horse' in Donegal, but only very old native speakers would write 'chainiceas'.

Should be written "choiniceas" if we want the underlying form, but this time I wanted to write more phonetically so that we know how it is pronounced, just for fun.

quote:

Domhnaillín's version 'Bhí an capall á fheiscint aréir': I think it's 'fheiscint' only in Munster, 'fheiceáil' in the standard, including Donegal.

Feiscint or fiscint in whole Munster, mainly feiceá(i)l in Connachta, and feiceáil(t) in Ulster.

quote:

Also, this construction, I think, indicates a continuing action - "...was being seen" rather than a completed, once only action - though I'm open to correction on that.

yeah, to me it's a continuing action too.

Scríobh DBndT:

quote:

the autonomous form works here as well, though I find it a bit less colloquial.

Tuige? Bíonn an saorbhriathar in úsáid go fairsing.

"Chonacthas an capall aréir" a bheadh agamsa, cinnte.

Agus is gníomh leanúnach a bheadh i gceist le "á fheiscint" [le feiscint a bheadh agamsa, sílim - The horse was to be seen]

quote:

The horse was seen last night

Chonacthas an capall aréir. [Tá guta báite sa bhfocal seo: chonac-a-thas -- the extra "a" is pronounced "uh" but only lightly and without stress]

As for "Bhí an capall á fheiscint aréir" it shows remarkable insight into the horse's psyche because it means "The horse was seeing it last night" whatever "it" may have been. As Aonghus rightly says "Bhí an capall le feiscint aréir" means "the horse was to be seen last night" or "the horse was visible". Tá rud éigin osnádúrtha faoin gcapall seo feictear dom.

Failure to use the Briathar Saor is a mistake to be avoided. Watch out for it: The book was published in 2009 Foilsíodh an leabhar sa bhliain 2009. The child was born Rugadh an leanbh. The King was executed. Cuireadh an Rí chun báis. etc

Don't confuse "Chonacthas" (~ was seen) with "Chonaiceas" (I saw) or "Chonac" (I saw)

The latter are variants of "chonaic mé" and if I were a learner I'd say "An ea, muis" and pass on.

You'ld be in line for a PhD if you were to get into the incidences of "Chonac" and "Dúrt," "Réir Dé go ndeineam" and "A bhuí le Dia na bhfeart go bhfeiceam ..." and so on not to mention the relative forms "a fheiceas" which exist in Irish but are not recognised much in the CO as far as I know.

Scottish Gaidhlig seems to make more use of them than Irish. My advice to learners: don't get waylaid by such tiny remnants of the earlier language: learn the core stuff well.

In the CO they recognize only "a bheas" and "a leanas".
While such relative forms, for most verbs, are used everyday by Connachta and Ulster speakers...

quote:

As for "Bhí an capall á fheiscint aréir" it shows remarkable insight into the horse's psyche because it means "The horse was seeing it last night"

A Thaidhgín, an mbíonn tú ag labhairt canúna iomrallaí éigin nach féidir a rá "Tá an doras á phéinteáil" inti?

Níl, ach tá "The horse was being seen last night" rud beag amscaí mar nath. Agus tá léamh Taidhgín - go raibh fís ag an each - ann freisin.

Tá debhrí aisteach ag baint le h-"á" i gcásanna mar seo. Bíonn an chiall soiléir ón gcomhthéacs go hiondúil - caolseans go mbeadh doras ag cuir dath ar aoinne.

Lughaidh, you have been misinformed: a bheas, a bhíos, a bhíonns and a bhíonn are all equally acceptable in the CO. The relative forms are explicitly permitted for all verbs, and their morphology is not prescribed.

(The only place a relative form is required in the CO is in the set phrase a leanas... perhaps that's what you were thinking of?)

Look at New Irish Grammar p. 144-145, §3 and 4...

Among other things, they say "Although outside the Caighdeán Oifigiúil, this direct relative form in -s is used widely in literature, prayers and in conversation:..."

But in "Gramadach na Gaeilge agus Litriú na Gaeilge - An Chaighdeán Oifigiúil", p. 46:

quote:

An Fhoirm Choibhneasta. Ní thugtar sna samplaí an fhoirm leithleach don choibhneasta neamhspléach, san aimsir láithreach agus san aimsir fháistineach, modh táscach, ach is cead sin a úsáid. (Úsáidtear í i gcónaí i gcás an briathair leanaim in abairtí mar na focail seo a leanas).

Lars

Well, they're misinformed too then. Here is the quote from the CO handbook, page 46, emphasis mine:

An Fhoirm Choibhneasta. Ní thugtar sna samplaí an fhoirm leithleach
don choibhneasta neamhspleách, san aimsir láithreach agus san aimsir
fháistineach, modh táscach, ach is cead sin a úsáid. (Úsáidtear í i
gcónaí i gcás an bhriathair leanaim in abairtí mar na focail seo a leanas).

translation:
The Relative Form. The special form for the independent relative, in the present and future tenses, indicative mood, is not given in the examples, but its use is permitted. (It is used invariably in the case of the verb leanaim in phrases such as na focail seo a leanas).

Oops - I see Lars beat me to it!

Permitted but not in the CO... that's why it isn't taught and you seldom see it in official texts...

Anyway anything is permitted if it's Gaeltacht Irish, but it doesn't mean it's in the CO.

But it is in the CO - explicitly acknowledged in the CO. Ar léigh tú an sliocht thuas ar chor ar bith?

Its spelling is simply left unregulated to accommodate more dialectal variation (including the fact there are dialects that don't use it at all.)

What I understand is that it is acknowledged as correct in general but it is not used in the CO itself (except a bheas and a leanas), cf NIG.
Otherwise you'd see it more often in learning books that teach the CO, in official texts, it would be more taught in schools, and so on.

quote:

Permitted but not in the CO...

The CO cannot permit or forbid something outside the CO.

Lars

(Message edited by lars on June 18, 2009)

In the CO handbook they say all Gaeltacht forms are permitted. However, if you use Gaeltacht forms that are not in the CO handbook or in NIG in exams, the teachers put your marks down (at least it was the case in my university).
And most learning books don't teach a 'pure' dialect but the CO or sometimes the CO with some dialectal forms.
So please explain me...

I can't explain what teachers do or authors of learning books.

Lars

The problem is that the CO is mainly used by them...

Well, even you adopt their incorrect views. :-)

Lars

What do you mean?

Lughaidh

Every time the CO gets mentioned in a thread, you seem to get riled. Yet it is via the CO that most Irish-born learners access the language. I understand your love of dialects, particularly the Ulster dialect, but is the CO such a bad thing?

To me, it is. Not because it's the standard dialect (in some specific contexts you need one - but you may as well choose one existing dialect as your standard language) but because it's an artificial dialect and to me, because it's has been botched up.

In this book I found another sentence about foirmeacha coibhneasta:

quote:

... cé nach bhfuiltear á ligean isteach mar caighdeán, ceadaíodh an fhoirm choibhneasta tóisc ba mhór a bheith leis fós in dhá chanúint.

I don't understand this. Where is it "ceadaithe" if not in the CO?
And if not in CO who needs such a "ceadú"?

Lars

(Message edited by lars on June 18, 2009)

Those who write in irish but not in the CO. Like, if you write something like "deirim nár tiocfaim" it's wrong, if you write it people may tell you it's wrong. If you write something that isn't in the CO but that is used in a Gaeltacht, it won't be considered as wrong by anyone (normally).

quote:

because it's an artificial dialect and to me, because it's has been botched up.

I have to say that I find that statement above irritating to say the least. Some of the finest most dedicated scholars and native speakers of Irish of their generation were involved in drafting the Caighdeán Oifigiúil, generations of Irish people have learnt it and use it and seek to learn it relying on it as a guide to the Irish language as it is today and to have a parvenu say "it has been botched up" is not helpful. It devalues this website and forum to have such nonsense go uncontested. What is the point of joining in a discussion where some people deliberately promote confusion and refuse to see the wood for the trees.

As regards "writing something that is used in a "Gaeltacht" won't be considered as wrong by anyone (normally): did not Lughaidh tell us that he had some disagreement with his University faculty in Coleraine on this point? I understand what is meant by this. When Irish was in its heyday in the Gaeltacht in times gone by and growing naturally there is no doubt it provided wonderful examples of a living language coping with life. Unfortunately the Gaeltacht today is different. Even those who speak the language most switch to English for some topics and those who use the language in such domains as law, politics, education, etc do so outside the Gaeltacht. Most of those who speak Irish fluently in the Gaeltacht can only speak about those domains familiar to them. Urban life, trade and commerce, the arts, come to them through English. They don't have traditional Irish terminology for such things. Worse still they don't see any need for new terminology -- unless they are employed in a job that demands it.

This constant nitpicking against the CO is merely intended to get people's backs up and does little to facilitate those who want to learn "Irish". It is the downside of the Internet. Is dóigh le gach aon amadán gurb é féin fear na léire. If Lughaidh presented his point of view in a hall with fifty or sixty other Irish speakers he would be given short shrift. I take Lughaidh's statement as an insult to the language I love and have sought to learn for well over sixty years and to those of us who respect the CO and value it. I hope he will stop saying such things, stop his generalised unsubstantiated criticism of the CO, and share his knowledge of the language with us -- learners.

quote:

A Thaidhgín, an mbíonn tú ag labhairt canúna iomrallaí éigin nach féidir a rá "Tá an doras á phéinteáil" inti?

I think Domhnall you have to consider the issue of transitive or intransitive verbs here. "Péinteáil" is transitive. Its object is "doras". "Tá daoine ag péinteáil an dorais." = "Tá an doras á phéinteáil.] That's OK.

"Feic" is a very different verb. It does not take an object. It is intransitive. It does not even have an imperative form (Don't tell me it is in your grammar book. Paper doesn't refuse ink. Computer programs generate extraordinary paradigms for verbs to an extent never dreamed of by the actual speakers of the language.) You could say "Níl mé in ann an capall a fheiceáil" but not "Tá an capall á fheiceáil."

Even if you suggest that what you mean is "Tá an capall á fheiceáil ag an tréadlia anois" that still contains an error because other verbs would be used in that context instead of "feic". "Tá an capall á bhreithniú (scrúdú) ag an tréadlia" The problem lies in the limitations of the verb "feic" (and "clois").

quote:

to have a parvenu say

?????

quote:

"it has been botched up" is not helpful. It devalues this website and forum to have such nonsense

it's not nonsense, you just don't agree with me. Do you accept that people don't always agree with you?

quote:

I take Lughaidh's statement as an insult to the language I love and have sought to learn for well over sixty years and to those of us who respect the CO and value it. I hope he will stop saying such things, stop his generalised unsubstantiated criticism of the CO, and share his knowledge of the language with us -- learners.

Hey, sharing my knowledge of the language is what I do every single day on my life on this forum and on several others!
By the way, you say "unsubstantiated criticism of the CO" but actually it isn't "unsubstantiated", and I am not the only one who thinks like that. Go and visit Ciarán Ó Duibhín's website - he even writes in the old spelling (while I only change what I don't like in it). M. Ó Siadhail doesn't use the CO in 'Learning Irish' nor in 'Modern Irish', and some others are working on a relaxing of the CO rules outside official stuff, eg. Dónall Ó Baoill (read the top of this page : http://www.acmhainn.ie/tearmai/seimhiu.htm ), and so on. And these people are not 'parvenus'... (nor am I, actually)

So please make enquiries before insulting me...

quote:

"Feic" is a very different verb. It does not take an object. It is intransitive.

Seafóid. If this were true, then the sentence Chonacthas an capall aréir--which you yourself produced would be impermissible. Open up any book any book by an Irish writer and you'll find plenty of examples of feic used transitively. Séadna, for instance: "Chím é, chím é!", "[C]honaic Séadna airís an leanbh", srl. Or Merriman: "Feicimse an t-athair ina sheasamh ina chéadfa," "Chonaic mé spéirbhean mhaorga mhallruisc," srl.

quote:

It does not even have an imperative form.

Ó Siadhail disagrees and cites the CF form feiceamuist! "Let's see!" (Or are you going to nitpick and say this is really an "optative" or something?)

You're a very knowledgeable man and I'm sure you've got some reasonable point to make here, but it's hard for me to tell what it is when you make such completely ridiculous and easily refuted claims.

quote:

he even writes in the old spelling

And how accessible does that make O Duibhín's work to the vast majority of us who have learned Irish since the 1960s? I could decide to write in Old Irish (if I knew how) using Ogham, but what would that achieve.

In my local Irish class, the teachers will often distinguish between phrases used "sa Chaigheadan" agus "sa chanúint" for illustration purposes, but never have I heard them denigrate the CO. And these are native speakers from the fíor-ghaeltacht of Corca Dhuibhne, not "people in offices in Dublin" as Lughaidh might say.

quote:

What I understand is that it is acknowledged as correct in general but it is not used in the CO itself (except a bheas and a leanas), cf NIG.
Otherwise you'd see it more often in learning books that teach the CO, in official texts, it would be more taught in schools, and so on.

That is not the case; NIG has got the wrong end of the stick here, as you can see from the passage I quoted above, where its use is explicitly permitted, in the same manner and in much the same language in which "ag an mbean"/"ag an bhean" is permitted.

This is not in the foreword; this is in the section on verbs. "Is cead sin a úsáid" - could that have been made much clearer, do you think?

Again: I can't help what learning books and official texts do or don't incorporate. The CO is not defined by those.


Taidhgín, I don't mind if Lughaidh criticizes the CO - I find it unjustified and (in a learner) unseemly, but he's got a right to his own opinion.

I do wish he would read it first though, instead of trying to guess at what it might say, from other books, and then criticizing it on the basis of that guess.

Look, I could understand that approach a year or ten years ago, when the CO handbook was out of print and not everybody had a copy. For years I didn't have a copy myself - had to go on what I'd been taught and had heard other people mention. It's available free online now, though, so there is really no excuse for such shoddy scholarship.

Anybody that wants to criticize the CO - or praise it, for that matter - is strongly encouraged to at least read the thing.
http://ec.europa.eu/translation/language_aids/freelance/documents/irish/an_caigh dean_2001_ga.pdf

Sin é mo racht don lá atá inniu ann - rant over for today, a chairde. Téim ar thóir greim bia anois.

Hey Guys:

I appreciate the intricacies, but at this point we were just trying to get a simple understanding if possible. I think I found a good example on Michelle's 365 Irish words.

Níl uisce beatha ar bith fágtha sa bhuidéal.

There's no whiskey at all left in the bottle.

A few examples like this would be great using. Briste, doite, glanta, dúnta, gearrtha, ólta, etc...off of the chart.

Thanks a million for your help,
FaberM

Ps. what is "CO"? (shortcut for standard Irish maybe?) Sorry, we're still new to this.

CO stands for [An] Caighdeán Oifigiúil - [The] Official Standard.

Domhnaillín,

I think Taidhgín might actually have a great syntactic insight.

What he really means by "intransitive" is the fact that "feic" assigns a Stimulus role to its object rather than Patient as is the case of "peint". Thus it well may be that only certain types of predicates can be used in this funky "tá X á Y-eáil" construction (as Taidhgín says, all but "sense" verbs).

Another remark I want to make is that I strongly believe that since "capall" is generally referred to by a feminine pronoun, it should be reflected in the agreement with the participle: e.g. "tá an capall á peinteáil agam".

(Message edited by Peter on June 19, 2009)

quote:

And how accessible does that make O Duibhín's work to the vast majority of us who have learned Irish since the 1960s?

Absolute beginners would have difficulty of course (but wouldn't they have with any Irish text), but those who read Irish would understand everything. Pre-CO Irish is very easy to read.
Anyway it's Ó Duibhín's own choice...

quote:

In my local Irish class, the teachers will often distinguish between phrases used "sa Chaigheadan" agus "sa chanúint" for illustration purposes, but never have I heard them denigrate the CO. And these are native speakers from the fíor-ghaeltacht of Corca Dhuibhne, not "people in offices in Dublin" as Lughaidh might say.

They don't denigrate the CO but they do teach Corca Dhuibhne Irish, don't they? :-)


Aibí, once again, these forms may be permitted, but why aren't they taught and used in official stuff etc?
Looks like it's permitted but actually (almost) nobody dares to use them! Why?

I thank the members of this forum for their patience with me and with Lughaidh. I wish it were possible to disagree with someone without giving personal offence. That is not my intention and I have nothing but admiration for everyone here who is seeking to learn and promote the Irish language. We are all on the "one side" the same side.

Peter's last comment reminds me of how little I know of the terminology of linguistics but it also brings to mind another interesting feature of Irish: All verbs in Irish have a continuous present tense (habitual present? I don't know the English for An Aimsir Ghnáth-láithreach) but only verbs of being, seeing, hearing, understanding, sensing, have a present tense proper, An Aimsir Láithreach. Only one verb, bí, has a separate form for the Aimsir Láithreach: Táim go maith. The others use the same form for both tenses: Tuigim anois thú I understand you now. (Present tense) Tuigim Seán nuair a labhraíonn sé Gaeilge ach ní thuigim a chuid Béarla. (Present habitual tense)

An gcloiseann tú mé? (Do you hear me? Both habitual present tense and present tense proper in the same word.)
Cloisim anois tú. (This is the present tense proper only)

An dtéann tú go dtí an chathair ar an mbus?
Ní théim. Téim ar an traein.
All the tenses here are Present Habitual. To get the idea of "present time" you would have to say "An bhfuil tú ag dul ar an mbus" and answer "Táim" or "Nílim".

Having looked back over Domhnaillín's comments above, particularly:

quote:

Seafóid. If this were true, then the sentence Chonacthas an capall aréir--which you yourself produced would be impermissible. Open up any book any book by an Irish writer and you'll find plenty of examples of feic used transitively. Séadna, for instance: "Chím é, chím é!", "[C]honaic Séadna airís an leanbh", srl. Or Merriman: "Feicimse an t-athair ina sheasamh ina chéadfa," "Chonaic mé spéirbhean mhaorga mhallruisc," srl.

I don't know how linguists would explain it but there is a difference between "Chonacthas an capall aréir" and "Leagadh an capall aréir". Both sentences are correct. In the first the verb "Chonacthas" has no effect on the "capall". No action passes from "Chonacthas" to the "capall." In the other sentence the action is all too obvious. The horse's legs crumple and he - or she - ends up lying on the roadway having been "leagtha" by a lorry or a bus or something. "Leagadh an capall" (The horse was knocked down) has action transferred from the verb to the horse. "Chonacthas an capall" (The horse was seen) is very different. The horse is oblivious to the watcher or whoever has seen him / her / it.

Q.E.D.

Regarding verbs not having an imperative form: if you look down the list of the eleven irregular verbs you will find two of them invariably surrounded by brackets, thus, abair, beir, bí, (clois), déan, faigh, (feic), ith, tabhair, tar, téigh. The reason is that no one says "clois an t-amhrán sin" but rather "Éist leis an amhrán sin" and similarly "feic" is not used in ordinary speech -- I have seen it used for footnotes in scholarly tomes -- "Féach + ar" or "Breathnaigh + ar" or "Ac" (short for "amharc" in North Mayo) "Ac aníos é" (Look at him coming down towards us at speed.) The context of that last one was that both of us were in a car heading for Éigse Riocard Bairéad and my informant saw one of his neighbours driving too fast. "Ac aníos é!"

As for Micheál Ó Siadhail's reference to "feiceamuist" I am sure he is right.

The nature of language is essentially a code accepted by two or more people. If by consent we all decided that "Squigly goo goo" should mean "Ceannaigh pionta dom" I am sure "squigly goo goo" would be heard all over the place. On the other hand some coinages are so obviously far out as to be ridiculous and they are quite rightly ridiculed and promptly abandoned again. I don't know why Mícheál Ó Siadhail would bother alluding to such a word. I tried to read his Learning Irish once and found it heavy going among other criticisms ...

Taidhgín,

You're absolutely right about the distinction between the objects of "feic" and "leag" (or "peint"). It is common to speak about semantic roles (or thematic roles) that a predicate (a verb, noun, adjective etc. describing an event or situation) assigns to its arguments (the participants of an event or a situation that are expressed grammatically). It seems useful to distinguish between major roles because they lend themselves to great syntactic generalisations. For instance, the fact that the subject in German "mir ist kalt" or Russian "мне видно дом" (I can see a house), "мне страшно" (I'm scared) is marked with dative case rather than nominative indicates that the Experiencer role of "sense" verbs is often encoded differently from the Agent role (="doer") of "action" verbs (some languages even make use of a separate morphological case for Experiencer, called "affective").

Note however that roles are often criticised as being too vague to be successfully employed or too arbitrary a generalisation over a very diverse predicate-argument landscape.

As for the imperative forms of sense verbs, imperative presupposes conscious action which disagrees with the semantics of sense verbs. It is not surprising that the imperatives of "see", "hear", "feel" are also impossible in Russian and in fact the imperative forms of English "see", "hear", "feel" could be argued to either help structure discourse or carry a different non-perceptive meaning (e.g. in "hear! hear!"). Similarly, it is the semantics of sense verbs that makes them bad candidates for progressive ("tá sé ag rith") which presupposes an action rather than an ability (and a quality scale).

(Message edited by Peter on June 20, 2009)

As for "feiceamaist" in Cois Fhairrge, here's an example from An Deilbhíocht, Tomás de Bhaldraithe:

"...déan anois feiceamaist ( = déan, má tá tú i riocht! déan má tá sé de mhisneach agat! mo dhubhshlán duit é dhéanamh!)..."

So, although the form is of the imperative mood, it seems to be fully lexicalised, i.e. the meaning associated with this form is no longer understood by native speakers as a composition of meanings of "feic" or the imperative marker "-maist". This shows that although the language has the potential to grammatically express the meaning of compelling a group of people, comprising the speaker and hearer(s), to exhibit their seeing ability, this sense seems to be too rarely required in natural conversation that the corresponding form has developed a new meaning.

Peter, I am pleased that you consider my point valid and impressed by the obvious breadth of your learning. I am no linguist and certainly not a scholar. I just speak Irish, listen to it, read it, and write it often. Sin a bhfuil ann de.

quote:

Some of the finest most dedicated scholars and native speakers of Irish of their generation were involved in drafting the Caighdeán Oifigiúil, generations of Irish people have learnt it and use it and seek to learn it relying on it as a guide to the Irish language as it is today and to have a parvenu say "it has been botched up" is not helpful. It devalues this website and forum to have such nonsense go uncontested. What is the point of joining in a discussion where some people deliberately promote confusion and refuse to see the wood for the trees.

I'm currently learning a language without any classroom teaching, I'm gaining competency from asking natives specific questions, and from observing and adopting what they say.

The thing is, I'm immersed in a "speech community", a community of people who understand what each other says. They understand each other's vocabulary, they understand the grammatical constructs, colloquialisms, exclamations.

The language spoken by a given speech community can be called a dialect. If I get in my car and drive east for two hours, I only understand about 40% of what the people say, reason being that I'm in a different speech community which speaks a different dialect.

The thing about the Official Standard, is that it doesn't exist. There's no such speech community. You can't look these people up in the phone book and give them a call. The Official Standard is a fantasy, a fairytale. You won't find a genuine native speaker who'll say "ar an siúcra" in one sentence and then "ar an tsráid" in the next; they either stick the T on for both cases, or they leave the both of them T-less.

Having learned languages in the past by means of classroom teaching, (Irish and French), I have to say I much prefer the immersion method. Start with the pronouns, learn the verbs "go" "come" eat", and buy a dictionary.

From this point on I'd never be happy to learn a language unless I'm immersed in a particular speech community, which means I'd never contemplate going near a book that tries to teach some sort of fictitious dialect.

As for teaching Irish in schools... well there's a simple solution:

If the school's in Munster, teach Munster Irish.
If the school's in Ulster, teach Ulster Irish.
If the school's in Connacht, teach Connacht Irish.

As for what to do in Leinster.... well that can be debated, but anything's better than teaching a fictitious dialect.

... gaining competency from asking natives specific questions, and from observing and adopting what they say...I only understand about 40% of what the people say...You won't find a genuine native speaker who'll say ...

"Is mór an ní an neart" arsa an dreolán, nuair a tharraing sé an chuiteog as an sioc.

- Ní sotal go sotal an fhoghlaimeora agus ar ndóigh, bíonn an tseafóid dá réir.

Go raibh maith agat, a Thaidhgín! Ní bhím féin ach ag déanamh staidéir agus ag foghlaim, agus is ó do leithidíse a bhím ag foghlaim céard é an chaoi is deise agus is bríomhaire le Gaeilge a úsáid. Ach fan nó go dtiúrfaidh Domhnaillín a bhreithúnas ar na cúrsaí teangeolaíochta seo atá dhá bplé againn, mar is éisean an duine is mó eolais, bail ó Dhia air.

Traveller, historically Leinster spoke Ulster Irish in the north (Co. Louth), Connacht Irish in the west and Munster Irish in the south (probably of the Clare-Decies type???)

Well tuff ****, Traveller, Unregistered Guest. You're late. Ireland has moved on and Irish is developing outside the little corrals you would wish to devise for its demise. Your comments are amusing for their simplistic unreality showing little knowledge of An Saol Gaelach today.

quote:

As for teaching Irish in schools... well there's a simple solution:

If the school's in Munster, teach Munster Irish.
If the school's in Ulster, teach Ulster Irish.
If the school's in Connacht, teach Connacht Irish.

As for what to do in Leinster.... well that can be debated, but anything's better than teaching a fictitious dialect.

Irish has long moved beyond such simplistic solutions. Ireland is such a small island that Donegal relatives of mine run Naíonraí in Meath and Wexford. Kerry teachers end up in Donegal. Galway and Mayo teachers, newly-trained, fan out over the whole country seeking a job. Think of Póilín Ní Chiaráin a native of Mayo broadcasting from Belfast for most of her life. It would never be possible.

Schools recruit teachers as best they can and since Irish speakers can choose between a career in the media, in translation, or in teaching, if they want to use their Irish, most schools find themselves with reps of na ceithre chanúintí: Munster, Connacht, Ulster, and An Caighdeán Oifigiúil, and, guess what, they know how to adapt their own canúint to make themselves understood and acceptable: they follow the book and use an Caighdeán.

In fact since the Gaelscoileanna movement is far more determined about preserving and promoting Irish than any Gaeltacht area most teachers of Irish today are products of such schools and of na coláistí samhraidh -- especially those that attempt tumoideachas, known to all as Riail na Gaeilge.

Nevertheless Gaelscoileanna are obviously dependant on the Gaeltacht for some brilliant teachers who are the pillars of the movement. We can all name "dangerous weapons" with a heart of gold and a sincere desire to push their students through exams and promote the language. You will find them in all parts of the country however and not corralled into particular areas depending on their dialect.

"Fictitious dialect"? Just imagine my response to that .. assertion. I'll save myself the bother.

I'll just remind readers of one thing: there are two almost opposite streams in the Irish language movement: those who want to revive the language in some form and use it in all domains possible; and those who love the ancient purity of the traditional and classical language to such an extent that they resent common gurriers like myself using it freely and changing it to suit our own lives today.

The latter group regard it almost as sacriligious to dare to use the beloved language of Tomás Ó Criomhthain, Peig Sayers, and, the arch-apostle of this attitude, Máire, aka Séamus Ó Grianna, brother of Seosamh Mac Grianna, both prolific writers in a by-gone age.

Séamus supported the anti-Irish Language Freedom Movement in his day and opposed the teaching of Irish to the mass of the population and could not countenance anyone using his sacred language other than those he admired: his ancestors and predecessors. Well tuff **** a Shéamuis Uí Ghrianna, a Mháire, we're learning it and using it and your books have all but been forgotten.

Incidentally, one consequence of the emphasis on maintaining the dialects, is to make Irish a much more difficult school subject to learn in preparation for the Leaving Cert: students are expected to be able to deal with speakers from all the dialects. They love that.

Why can't Irish be like all the other languages in the world where parents teach dialect -- if they wish -- and teachers teach the Official Standard. Why is Irish so different? Is it a handicap placed upon it to ensure its revival does not succeed?

Apologies for the vehemence in the above post.

The answer to my own question is that there is no standard in speech only dialects and if there are to be oral and aural elements in exams students must have some familirity with all the major dialects.

Poor Faber's original request for some examples of past participles has been hijacked and lost in the ruckus once again:

quote:

Hey Guys:

I appreciate the intricacies, but at this point we were just trying to get a simple understanding if possible. I think I found a good example on Michelle's 365 Irish words.

Níl uisce beatha ar bith fágtha sa bhuidéal.

There's no whiskey at all left in the bottle.

A few examples like this would be great using. Briste, doite, glanta, dúnta, gearrtha, ólta, etc...off of the chart.

Thanks a million for your help,
FaberM

Any takers?

I don't know about "past participles" but there are two forms of the Irish verb that are essential: the ainmbriathartha (verbal noun) and the aidiacht briathartha (verbal adjective)

Here are examples of each. The first of each pair is the ainmbriathartha and the second the aidiacht briathartha:

Ná bí ag briseadh rudaí (Don't be breaking things)
An bhfuil rud éigin briste agat? (Have you broken something?)

Níl cead anois géaga crainn a dhó sa gháirdín (There is no permission / It is prohibited now to burn branches of trees in the garden.)
An bhfuil an t-adhmad go léir dóite? (Is all the timber burnt?)

Chonaic mé é ag glanadh an bhoird. (I saw him cleaning the table.)
Tá an áit go léir glanta aige. (He has cleaned the whole place.)

Brostaigh ort. Tá Seán ag dúnadh an gheata. (Hurry up. Seán is closing the gate.)
Tá tú déanach. Tá an geata dúnta aige. (You are late. He has closed the gate.)

Is ag gearradh féir atá athair Nóra. (Nora's father is cutting hay.)
Cheap mé go rabih sé go léir gearrtha aige faoi seo. (I thought he had it all cut by now.)

Ná bí ag ól as an mbuidéal. (Don't be drinking from the bottle.)
Nuair a bhíonn a sháith bainne ólta ag an gcat líonn sé a liopaí le sásamh. (When the cat has drunk sufficient milk it licks its lips with satisfaction)

===============
Sometimes -- perhaps always, I do not know ---- the tuiseal ginideach of the ainmbriathartha looks the same as the aidiacht briathartha. I'll just give one example:

Chuir duine éigin fios ar lucht múchta dóiteán (Someone sent for the fire brigade i.e. those who put out fires. "dóiteán" here is Tuiseal Ginideach Uimhir Iolra)

Bíonn briogáid múchta na ndóiteán ag múchadh dóiteán ó mhaidin go hoíche. (In Hiberno-English "The fire brigade does be quenching fires from morning to night." Both incidences of "dóiteán" there are Tuiseal Ginideach Uimhir Iolra)

ag múchadh - quenching, putting out (fires)
lucht múchta - those who put out (tuiseal ginideach of "múchadh)
lucht múchta tine - those who put out a fire.

dóiteán - a conflagration

There was some nasty character in Irish history long ago called Murchadh na nDóiteán.

A Bhreandáin, freagróidh mé ceist ar bith is féidir liom a fhreagairt muna mbeidh sé thar m'acmhainn. Níl ort ach nod a thabhairt. Taidhgín

ag briseadh = literally "at" + "breaking"

Don't be abreaking things??????????

briste - broken

I never like to treat the aidiact briathartha as an ordinary adjective taking a séimhiú. I try and avoid using the séimhiú if I can treating the aidiacht briathartha as a relative clause instead: so I regard "Gaeilge briste" as "Gaeilge atá briste" and would regard "Gaeilge bhriste" as an error. That's not to say it is but that's my feeling on it. There is a way of avoiding the séimhiú on the aidiacht briathartha perhaps even on the aidiacht occasionally if you wish "Gaeilge bheo na Gaeltachta sín í an teanga beo" = an teanga atá beo. Teanga bheo? Teanga beo? Both are right. :-)

GRMA as ucht na samplaí sin, a Thaidhgín. Togha fir! I bhfad níos mó d'acmhainnse ná mo cheannsa, ar ndóigh. Bíonn muid uilig ag síor-fhoghlaim...


For Faber:

Taidhgín said above "Brendan, I will answer any question I can (answer) unless it is beyond my capacity. You only have to give (me) a hint. Taidhgín" (or something to that effect. ;-) )

My answer is:
"Thanks for those examples, Taidhgín. Good man! Your capacity (ability) is much greater than mine, of course. We are all constantly learning..."

quote:

Why can't Irish be like all the other languages in the world where parents teach dialect -- if they wish -- and teachers teach the Official Standard. Why is Irish so different?

Because Irish is a minority language, that is threatened. Very few parents in Ireland teach a dialect to their children, and according to one of my teachers, there are parents in the Gaeltacht who don't speak Irish to their children because what they're taught at school is different and because "they do enough Irish at school". Some native speakers feel their Irish isn't useful (or even that it's bad) since it's not what is taught at school. Imagine what would happen if every native speaker thought that. Irish will just die as a natural language, and would become a revived language with only learners and only books to refer to, like Latin or Cornish. That is the result of the CO-only teaching.

ag labhairt an Bhéarla ghrána bhriste - found at http://wikisource.org/w/index.php?title=File:Mo_sgeal_fein.djvu&page=49 (a work by Peter O'Leary).

I am not sure the theory that any adjective can be unlenited and it will always be explicable as a relative clause has been adopted by famous authors in the past.

Thaidhgin, you strike me as the kind of person who has never lived in another area and spoken a different language. People who have actually lived somewhere else and spoken a different language tend to have a much more realistic view of how language acquisition actually works.

I'm all for people learning Irish, keeping it alive and so forth... but personally I wouldn't like to read language books for a few decades and develop an unnatural way of speaking a particular language. If you want to learn a language, any language, you have to spend a few months/years around the people who actually speak that language naturally. Until you do that, you're never gonna have brilliant competency or even sound natural. Now you can argue against this point until the cows come home, but anyone who can speak any foreign language with great proficiency will tell you that they got there from actually talking to people and listening. Books will only get you so far (unless you're one of those savante people, but savantes account for less than 1% of the population).

I'm not trying to crush people's dreams who are learning Irish by themselves or in a small group somewhere abroad, but we can't escape the fact that Irish is a spoken language, and spoken languages are learned by spending months/years around people who can speak the language. Sure you can make great progress in a classroom, but it will take you 5 years of classroom teaching to reach the proficiency you'd gain in 1 year if you actually were surrounded by the langauge, you would also sound much more natural.

The Official Standard of Irish is not a spoken language. It isn't spoken anywhere. It has 0 native speakers, and in the history of the universe, has had 0 native speakers. You can't travel somewhere and spend some time with people to learn this way of speaking. It's fiction.

As for "language standards", well the only two I've had much experience with are the English Standard and the Irish Standard. As I've already mentioned, the Irish Official Standard is fiction. The English Standard may have been natural at one time in the past, but it's very unnatural nowadays. When I used to teach English, I taught them that the future tense was "I'm gonna" instead of "I will". In the same school where I taught, there were pompous old men who taught the future tense as "I shall". At the end of the school term, my students were much more proficient at actually speaking English to real life people with organs and body odour and hair and nails and teeth, whereas his students were better at reading court transcriptions.

I have yet to hear somebody extremely proficient in a foreign language say that the Irish Official Standard is anything but a work of fiction. Real language is spoken by people in a particular area, it doesn't exist in a book.

Taidghin, if you're content to learn a language purely from an academic viewpoint then fair enough, I used to be the same, but once you've actually tried living somewhere and picking up a language through observance and immitation, you'll see how the classroom method will never measure up, especially if the classroom method isn't trying to teach the way an actual living group of people speak.

Taidhgín, you are passionate in your views, but a middle ground can be found.

YOu said:

The latter group regard it almost as sacriligious to dare to use the beloved language of Tomás Ó Criomhthain, Peig Sayers, and, the arch-apostle of this attitude, Máire, aka Séamus Ó Grianna, brother of Seosamh Mac Grianna, both prolific writers in a by-gone age.

I don't think you are right anyone views it as sacrilege to use the language of the famous writers of Kerry and Donegal Irish. Actually I think you will find some people WANT the language of those writers to be used IN PREFERENCE to the standard Irish, which whatever it is, is not the language Peig used.

Is there not room for dialectal enthusiasts as well as people who see the need for the CO? Let's have a broad church.

Taidhgín:

Thanks so much! They were great examples. I don't mind you guys (and Abigail) hijacking the question, but it is nice in the end to get an answer. I seem to have a knack at asking these seemingly "easy" questions that go on for 65-100 threads.

I guess that's the nature of Irish,
Slán go foill,
Faber

Ps. Leaving for Tir Connell in 30 days!

Is léir nach bhfuil aithne dá laghad agat ar Thaidhgín s'againne ná ar shórt a léinn nó ní chuirfeá a laghad ina leith seisean, cibé ar bith a déarfá faoi mo leithéidse.

Is léir freisin nach mbeireann tú an meas is dual ar scríobh teanga. An focal a scríobhtar is a léitear, tá sprid agus beocht ann, amhlaidh is atá sa bhfocal a labhraítear is a chloistear. An teanga nach scríobhtar, níl inti ach a leath - sa lá atá inniu ann.

Summary: You don't seem to know Taidhgín very well. Writing is a valid form of linguistic alive-ness too. These days an unwritten language is half a language.

quote:

I'm not trying to crush people's dreams who are learning Irish by themselves or in a small group somewhere abroad, but we can't escape the fact that Irish is a spoken language,

Gan amhras. Ceist agam ort. Meas tú gur féidir dúinn éalú ón Ghaeilge a bheith ina teanga scríofa?

Tá a leithéid is nádúrthacht scríbh ann, an teanga mar a scríobhann na gnáthdhaoine í, saor ar na comharthaí sóirt a sceithfeadh ort gur chorréan tú. 'Scríobh na ndaoine' an rud atá i gceist agam agus ní gá go mb'ionann scríobh na ndaoine agus caint na ndaoine céanna. (Cuir i gcás a ainnmhe is ab ionann iad sa mBéarla, ná sa nGearmáinis.)

Is é an chaoi gur dlúithe le glanchaighdeánachas a chloíonn scríobh seo na ndaoine ná le glanfóneiteachas, agus an té nach gcreidfeadh uaim sin tógadh sé nuachtán.

Ní gá dom a rá gur féidir é a shú isteach, ach í a scríobh is a léamh duit féin go dúthrachtach - díreach mar a dhéanfá leis an teanga labhartha tríd í a labhairt is a chloisteáil.

Summary: Irish is also alive as a written language, and so there is such a thing as natural writing in Irish. Natural writing is not the same as a transcript of natural speech - in Irish or in other languages. Pick up a copy of Foinse if you want to see what it looks like in Irish (it's closer to CO than to phonetically-spelled dialects, but it's not pure CO either.)

How to absorb this naturalness yourself? Keep reading and writing - just as you would aim to acquire naturalness of speech by speaking and listening.

Tá roinnt gasúr nach n-íosfaidh glasraí, is cuma céard a déarfas tú leo a Abigail. Adhradh na canúna, ar cheann de chéimeanna na foghlama é, ní féidir le roinnt den lucht foghlama a ghabháil thairis. Castar dom iad, an t-éan corr díobh thall is abhus, ar a dturas go hÉirinn chuig an éigse seo nó siúd agus iad lofa líofa leis 'ascal an ghleannachais'. Ní thig leo labhairt gan stró ach le leathphobal (agus an leath eile bailithe le Béarla ar aon chuma). Rachaidh siad abhaile na céadta punt níos boichte, le deich nath eile faoina gcoim acu, misnithe ina gcuid stuacachta: 'Tá an rialtas, an leathphobal istigh, an pobal ar fad amuigh, muintir an tamhnaigh ó thuaidh a mblítear na lachan ann, na forais ar fad, roinnt de na canúintí eile, an CO ar fad, dhá dtrian de RnaG, 90% de Fhoinse, béarlóirí na hÉireann ar fad, an Lagán ar fad agus na tamhnaigh mórthimpeall, agus dhá dtrian de Ghaeilgeoirí na hÉireann in éadan na Gaeilge'.

Mo ghraidhin go deo iad. Tá galar na Gaeilge gafa go smior iontu ar a mbealach aduain féin, ach ní sa nGaeilg féin a bhí an tréith sin ó thosach, ná níor in aon ghné de sheasamh lag na sochtheangeolaíochta Gaeilge a fuaireadar an frídín sin. Cuid díobh de bhunadh Chonnacht, tógadh thar lear iad, agus rachaidh siad le 'hascal an ghleannachais Thír Chonaill', cuid eile de bhunadh na Mumhan a tógadh thar lear, rachaidh siad le 'hascal an ghleannachais Thír Chonaill' chomh maith, recte, 'fosta', agus cuid de bhunadh na hardchathrach rachaidh siad leis an ‘airde ó thuaidheachas’ laistiar den Chaife Liteartha, sa gcaoi go bhfágfar i do shiún shincín thú i ndiaidh labhairt leo. B'fhéidir go dtiocfaidh an freastalaí le thú a bhriseadh as an tsáinn. Beidh tú in ann cúpla focal Polainnise a tharraingt isteach sa teach mar shí ghaoithe le faoiseamh a roinnt sa timpeall. Tholg an dream beag daoine seo gné na haduaine sin ina gcúlra féin. Is rud é a bhaineann le theacht as an mbroinn an 't-ascal an ghleannachais' seo. Iad féin a tharchéimneos as nó a chinnfeas fanacht ann.

A fhad a fhanfas siad ann, déanfaidh siad gnóthaí maithe taighde, foghlama, agus cur díobh mar gheall ar sheasamh an ‘ascal an ghleannachas’ i gcoinne – ní i leith - an CO, an rialtais, agus an liodáin sin thuasluaite . Ní bheinn róbhuartha fúthu. Bheinn imníoch faoina dtionchar ar fhoghlaimeoirí saonta eile ceart go leor, ach an té a bhfuil léirstean ar bith ann, tiocfaidh sé / sí thríd.

Creidim gur fearrde na gasúir glasraí a ithe go minic chomh maith, recte, fosta.

quote:

Thaidhgin, you strike me as the kind of person who has never lived in another area and spoken a different language.

I think I have apologised for my vehemence somewhere on this thread. I often write stuff and then press delete!!!

Regarding my learning of languages: being bilingual since childhood I learnt two other languages up to basic or intermediate conversational level, French and an African language, and another, Russian, to tourist level. I can speak French and read it but not write it. I can speak, read, and write my favourite African language. I have also been reading Scottish Gaidhlig all my life although I never stayed long enough in the Gaidhealtachd to aquire fluency. I visited all the areas where it is still spoken. The Latin I learnt in school I took to University level and taught for a while. I know a little about aquiring a second or third language.

I worked abroad and of the 50 or so "Education Officers" who headed off on a two-year contract to teach in a third-world country in Africa I was the only one who had bothered to prepare in advance by attempting to learn the language for three years before daring to approach people in their own culture and presume to teach them English. I learnt from them.

While I was there almost every evening -- or at least 3 or 4 evenings a week -- a local African teacher came into my house and taught me the target language. We read a text. Looked up words in dictionaries I had bought in Foyle's bookshop in London. Discussed idioms. Wrote down proverbs and pithy sayings. Engaged with the language and learnt it. I never gave up on that language. For forty years I read a passage or two every week or so. Anything I learnt I immediately tried out on others. I still do. Speakers of that language who come to Dublin are astonished to find an Irishman who can speak their language relatively well. They say "You speak it better than us. We don't know the grammar!"

Suffice to say I have good experience of learning and teaching languages.

My attitude to Irish is to accept the dialects and to accept the Caighdeán as another dialect and go on from there. I don't question its origins or its authenticity. I know it well and I like it. I wish I knew it better. There are flaws which are being addressed to make it conform more with what people are saying when they speak Irish.

If you want to become a teacher or a translator in Ireland you have to know the CO. Who am I to attempt to dare to try and bring down the linguistic edifice that has been built up over the years by the Irish state and its advisors (An tAthair Colmán ó hUallacháin, Niall Ó Dónaill, et al) to guide people towards an acceptable "middle way" between all the dialects. It's no big deal here in Ireland.

To be honest I had never come across any opposition to it or discussion of it until I got on to Internet sites such as this. There are a number of people learning Irish who attack and disparage the Caighdeán and I do not understand their motivation. I am entitled to my view also however and I think it no harm not to let the anti-caighdeán people go unchallenged.

Well and good if they point to some weakness or error in the Caighdeán or the "New Spelling" now almost sixty or eighty years old. I can pick up many points of disagreement myself. Perhaps the new English-Irish dictionary that is currently being prepared will address some of them. Meanwhile, tugaimisne arís faoi Ghaeilge a fhoghlaim.... :-)

quote:

Taidhgín:

Thanks so much! They were great examples.

Tá fáilte romhat, Faberm.

Here are some more based on the 11 irregular verbs:

1. (abair - say) Tá sé go léir ráite agam anois. (I have said it all now.)
2. (beir - catch / bring) An bhfuil beirthe agat ar iasc go fóill? (Have you caught a fish yet?)
3. (clois - hear) Níl an t-amhrán sin cloiste agam go fóill. (I haven't heard that song yet.)
4. (déan - do/make) Nach bhfuil an obair sin déanta agat fós? (Do you not have that work done yet?)
5. (faigh - get) Níl an ceadúnas tiomána faighte agam. (I haven't received the driving licence.)
6. (ith - eat) Nuair a bheidh an dinnéar ite agat tar amach chugam sa gháirdín. (When you have eaten your dinner -- in Irish "the dinner" -- come out to me in the garden.)
7. (tabhair - give) An bhfuil an bronntanas tugtha agat do Shíle? (Have you given Sheila her present.)
8. (tar - come) An bhfuil an traein tagtha fós? (Has the train arrived yet?)
9. (téigh - go) Is baolach, a chairde, go bhfuilimid dulta amú. Níl a fhios agam beo cá bhfuil an bóthar. (I'm afraid we have gone astray, my friends. I haven't clue where the road is.)
10. (feic - see) Tá an scannán sin feicthe agam dhá uair. Tá sé ar fheabhas. (I have seen that film twice. It is excellent.)
11. (bí - be) There doesn't seem to be one for this verb. Hint: don't make one up. Ar aghaidh linn go dtí an chéad cheacht eile.

A remark : according to several studies on Ulster dialects, it looks like the verbs tar and téigh have no verbal adjective in these dialects.

A Thaidhgín, a chara! Mara miste leat mé a bheith ag fíofraí dhíot, cén teanga Afracach a bhfuil tú ag déanamh trácht uirthi? Agus cén tír í sin a mbíteá ag múnamh Béarla inti? Séard a chuala mé ag fear amháin i Moscó go dtáinig Afracaigh go hÉirinn tráth gan smid Bhéarla acu ach Gaeilge líofa amach is amach - an teanga a d'fhoghlaimeadar ó mhanaigh Chaitlicigh as Éirinn a bhíodh i mbun scoileanna, nó rud mar sin, insa tír Afracach úd. Cé gur deacair an scéal seo a chreisdiúint, righ sé liom go m'fhéidir go bhfuil bunús leis.

Chualaidh mé scéal mar sin fá na sclábhaí Afracanacha a bhí i mBarbadós a rabh Gaeilg acu siocair go rabh maighistrí Éireannacha acu. Ach tharlaigh sin fad ó shoin, ar ndóighe. Buíochas le Dia.
Is múinteoir ollscoile a d'ins sin dúinn i rang, so ní dóigh liom gur bhréag a bhí ann, ach char chuartaigh mé tilleadh eolais fá dtaobh dó sin ag an am siocair nach rabh 'n t-am agam.

http://ga.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbad%C3%B3s

Ní hamháin go raibh maistrí Éireannacha i mBarbados - bhí daoir Gaelacha ann - a bhuí le Cromail.

http://www.yale.edu/glc/tangledroots/Barbadosed.htm

Foinse iontaofa:

http://www.irishmanuscripts.ie/servlet/Controller?action=analecta_disp


Imleabhar 4 de Analecta Hibernica:


Documents relating to the Irish in the West Indies.null
Rev. Aubrey Gwynn, S. J., M. A. 139 - 286 Soft 1932

v Soft 1932

You're right, Lughaidh. In ordinary speech "dulta" would almost certainly be replaced by "imithe" "Tá muid imithe amú." (We are lost).

If "tar" and "téigh" were represented graphically they would need two parallel arrows going in opposite directions to each other.

A neighbour of mine, originally from west Limerick and who always speaks Irish to me, has a habit of pronouncing "imeacht" as "imtheacht" and that certainly is interesting:

tar -- verbal noun ag teacht and aidiacht briathartha "tagtha"

but instead of "ag dul" and "dulta" the words "imeacht (imtheacht) and "imithe" ar most commondly used. What a clever language Irish is -- or was -- that the direction of the imaginary arrow can be switched around / reversed by creating a comhfhocal "im + teacht" [bíonn séimhiú ar an dara cuid de chomhfhocal, dá bhrí sin] "imtheacht" > "imeacht".

Peter, "lugha ya mataifa za Africa ya mashiriki". :-)

Níor mhúin mise Gaeilge dóibh riamh ach mhol mé dóibh omós a bheith acu dá dteangacha féin. Mhúin mé damhsa Gaelach do bhuíon beag díograiseach, ochtar nó seisear déag. Lá de na laethanta agus mé ag ceartú aistí sa seomra foirne labhair duine de na sean-mhúinteoirí Afraiceacha liom:

"Bwana Taidhgín, breathnaigh amach an fhuinneog."

B'iontach an radharc a bhí le feiceáil agam. Bhí scoláirí na scoile uilig i líne díreach sa chlós agus an tsleaschéim á déanamh acu ó thaobh taobh. Iad uilig, agus iad in ann dó. Bhí sí foghlamtha acu go léir óna chéile. Rud ar bith ón Eoraip bhí meas acu air.

Thugaidis "European Folk Dancing" ar an tranglam damhsaí a mhúin mise dóibh. Meascán de Bhallaí Luimní, Ionsaí na hInse, agus Baint an Fhéir. Cineál "Riverdance" dá gcuid féin a bhí acu. Thugaidis timpeall chuig scoileanna eile é mar thaispeántas. Bhinnse ag seinm dóibh agus nuair a d'athraíodh gluaiseacht an damhsa d'fhaighidis bualadh bas millteanach as a raibh déanta acu go nuige sin. Níor spleodar go dtí é.

Chomhairigh mé an méid teangacha a bhí ag páistí áirithe a bhíodh ag súgradh thart timpeall ar mo theach: Kiluo, teanga a muintire, Kikuyu, teanga na treibhe logánta, Kiswahili, an lingua franca Afraiceach a bhí i réim sular tháinig an Béarla, agus teanga na scoile, an Béarla. Bhí ceithre theanga in úsáid acu ag an am céanna.

Bhí an Kiswahili in ainm is a bheith ina teanga náisiúnta acu ach nuair a bhí mise ann ba léir dom go raibh sí scoite mar theanga ag an mBéarla. Teanga na cumhachta agus an uasalaicme ab ea an Béarla, teanga an mhargaidh, an airm, agus na mbocht ab ea an "teanga náisiúnta". Mar sin féin ní baol di.

Tá thart ar 3 mhilliún duine á labhairt mar mháthairtheanga cois cósta agus os cionn 50 milliún á labhairt mar lingua franca chomh fada ó thuaidh le Somalia agus ó dheas leis na hoileáin Comorro agus ansin istigh faoin tír chomh fada leis an Congó. Labhraítear leagan de i limistéar Kivu ansin. Tá na conspóidí céanna ar siúl ansin is atá anseo: ceist na gcanúintí agus an chaigdheáin, an dá chló, Arabach agus Rómhánach, agus dhá reiligiún: Islam agus an Chríostaíocht, gan trácht ar stádas.

Mhúin cara liom i mbaile 20 míle síos an bóthar uaim, mhúin sé beagán Gaeilge dá dhaltaí agus dá dtéinnse ar cuairt chuige chloisinn "Dia dhuit, Mzungu. Conas atá tú?" Ba mhór an spraoi iad agus b'iontach an phribhléid i mo shaol féin an seans a bheith agam iad a mhúineadh. Iad fíor-deabhéasach omósach agus flosc chun foghlama orthu i gcónaí. D'fhág a gcineáltacht a rian orm.

.... switched around / reversed by creating a comhfhocal "im + teacht" [bíonn séimhiú ar an dara cuid de chomhfhocal, dá bhrí sin] "imtheacht" > "imeacht".



Le míthuiscint a fágadh an comhfhocal inár measc a Thaidhgín. Ba é 'imeacht' an chéad chiall a bhíodh le 'teacht' gan an réimír 'im'. Ba ainm briathair é a bhí ag an mbriathar 'tét' i dtosach.

'Tíocht' atá ag an gConnachtach go fóill, ba shin é 'tudecht', ainm briathair a bhíodh ag briathair eile, 'do+téit', an ceann a chiallaíodh 'gan imeacht'; .i. teacht!

Bíonn an tseanchiall á roinnt fíor-chorruair go fóill le 'teacht'.

quote:

'ascal an ghleannachais'

Chaith mé dul i gcomhairle le mo chara maidir leis an tearma seo. Níor chuala sé é riamh ach mhínigh sé dom é. D'iarr sé liom an t-údar a moladh!

Nach bhfuil an Béal Bocht léite agat fós, a Chilleasrach?
Tagairt do sin atá ann, agus é beacht!

Tá sé ar an liosta. Tar éis Lig Sinn i gCathú. Is saothar deacair an nasc le mo teanga náisiúnta a ath-dhéanamh!