|
|
|
Author |
Message |
Breandán
Member Username: Breandán
Post Number: 263 Registered: 12-2008
| Posted on Sunday, June 07, 2009 - 08:33 am: |
|
At the end of another thread, Student mentioned a past discussion on the above topic: http://www.daltai.com/discus/messages/20/42922.html?1244369802 Background material can be found here: http://www.daltai.com/discus/messages/13510/13326.html and here: http://www.daltai.com/discus/messages/13510/22593.html A Mhic Léinn, I had a look back at the "tá fáilte romhat" thread and the evidence for the earliest use of "You're welcome" as a reply to "thank you" in "English" was a quote from OED: quote: d. you are (or you’re) welcome: a polite formula used in response to an expression of thanks. [1907 W. W. Jacobs Short Cruises ii. 34 ‘Thank you,’ said the girl, with a pleasant smile. ‘You’re quite welcome,’ said the skipper.] 1960 Times 14 Sept. 12/7 The coloured lift attendant in South Carolina who had that attractive way of saying, almost singing, ‘You’re welcome’ whenever we thanked her. 1977 P. Dickinson Walking Dead i. iv. 55 ‘Thanks,’ said Foxe..‘You’re welcome,’ said Dreiser. 1980 A. E. Fisher Midnight Men viii. 93 He dialled Directory Enquiries and asked the girl if she had a number. She gave him one and told him he was welcome. Something that seems to have been overlooked in the earlier discussion is that "You're welcome" is very much an Americanism. No other dialects used it until MacDonalds bombarded us with a TV advertising campaign about twenty years ago. For better or worse, this has now made "you're welcome" almost a conditioned response. Previous to that, expressions like "(it's) my pleasure", "not at all", "don't mention it", and "no worries" (in Oz) were the norm outside America. The above OED quotes may be either by American writers or British writers aiming to show that a character is from America, although I could not find a title page to confirm that supposition for the 1907 book. The following link would support that interpretation, I believe: http://linguistlist.org/ask-ling/message-details2.cfm?AsklingID=200428521 So it almost certainly didn't come from British English. My question in that debate would then be, how could American English have affected Irish? "English" influence on Irish has tended to be British rather than American until very recently. It seems far more likely that Irish immigrants took a native Irish expression to America and it influenced their English which then spread back into other forms of English. (Interestingly, someone mentions in the above link that Welsh used to use "croeso" (= "welcome") long before the current "dim problem" ("no problem").) |
|
Student
Member Username: Student
Post Number: 107 Registered: 07-2008
| Posted on Sunday, June 07, 2009 - 09:46 am: |
|
Interesting links above Brendan - go raibh maith agat. I supsect that the example for OED is not based on any exhaustive research or that it is definitive. I think it's just an example that was handy at the time the entry was made into OED. I'd also like to point out that at least here in the U.S. we don't use one particular response catergorically. It depends on the mood, the setting; it also may be randomly chosen by the user. For example, I may say "no problem," "no problema," "don't mention it" or "you're welcome" at any given moment. I think a lot of others do the same thing. Mac Léinn www.irishbooksandgifts.com
|
|
Breandán
Member Username: Breandán
Post Number: 264 Registered: 12-2008
| Posted on Sunday, June 07, 2009 - 11:01 am: |
|
I appreciate that the usage is not universal within America, but I think it was pretty well non-existent elsewhere, except perhaps in Hiberno-English, which is heavily influenced by Irish anyway. I wonder whether the regions of the States where "you're welcome" was used originally correspond to regions of higher Irish immigration or not. Unfortunately, the OED references can only give an indication of when documented occurrences appeared, not their distributions or frequencies. |
|
Faberm
Member Username: Faberm
Post Number: 53 Registered: 02-2009
| Posted on Sunday, June 07, 2009 - 01:19 pm: |
|
In the southwest where I live, there is no natural answer to "Thank you" other than "You're welcome". To me all other answers have the "I'm not at home and this is a bit foreign" feel to them. We also say, "You are very very welcome", or we say "Thanks a million" (that's probably the most common in my part of Texas. We do not use "no problem" "cheers" "good on you mate" "no worries" "don't mention it" "not at all". I always just figured "you're welcome" meant "You're welcome [to my help anytime]". Remember that the great Appalachian band from Pennsylvania (remember where my people came in) down to Georgia was heavily populated by Northern Irish people. The Townships, counties, etc where my family is from are called: Coleraine, Derry, Antrim, etc. (in Pennsylvania!) I don't think it would be an exaggeration to say that 1/2 of the DNA in the Appalachian Mountains is Norther Irish. I have an older cousin (70 years old) who is a very very proud Presbyterian who constantly reminds me that our "McBride" ancestors were driven into the mountains to practice as Presbyterians because it was outlawed in the early US experience. Also he contends that "Hill Billy's" comes from "Williiams guys from the Hlls", and "Redneck" referred to red bandanas fastened to Ulster Scots' necks during the battle of the Boyne. We may just imagine all of this, but we ended up in Texas and like to try to understand the different facets of our heritage. Later, FaberM |
|
(Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Sunday, June 07, 2009 - 11:41 am: |
|
A Bhreandáin, tá fáilte romhat is what they say in the Gaeltacht in response to GRMA. I think modern trends in the Gaeltacht should be accepted by learners elsewhere whatever the historical provenance... |
|
Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 8395 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Monday, June 08, 2009 - 08:57 am: |
|
quote: in the Gaeltacht In some Gaeltachtaí, which is why there was ever any discussion about this topic. Something like "go ndeána sé maith dhuit" is said in parts of Donegal. |
|
Abigail
Member Username: Abigail
Post Number: 1079 Registered: 06-2006
| Posted on Monday, June 08, 2009 - 09:19 am: |
|
quote:Interesting links above Brendan - go raibh maith agat. I supsect that the example for OED is not based on any exhaustive research or that it is definitive. I think it's just an example that was handy at the time the entry was made into OED. ...because, like lexicographers everywhere, the compilers of the OED only assembled it out of scraps they found lying round the house. They don't, like, go out and research this stuff. Tá fáilte roimh chuile cheartú!
|
|
Antaine
Member Username: Antaine
Post Number: 1403 Registered: 10-2004
| Posted on Monday, June 08, 2009 - 11:23 am: |
|
What is quoted is the entire part of the OED entry on the word that is relevant. The other uses of it, as well as other words in the OED are typically supported by 15-20 examples (sometimes more) going all the way back to beowulf and encompassing everything in between. I have access to the unabridged version, which in paper is about the size of the Encyclopedia Britannica. for instance, a much less interesting usage was researched and reported thusly: "C. 1. a. Used in the vocative as a form of address to a visitor or guest; hence as int., serving as an expression of good will or pleasure at the coming of a person. (Sometimes addressed to a thing personified or quasi-personified.) {alpha} c890 WÆRFERTH tr. Gregory's Dial. 276 He ongan..{th}us cwe{th}an: ‘wilcuman la, mine hlafordas, wilcuman la, mine hlafordas!’ c950 Lindisf. Gosp. Matt. xxv. 23 Euge, wilcymo. c1100 Gloss. in Wr.-Wülcker 191/13 Euax, wilcume. c1205 LAY. 22485 Wulcume sire Ar{edh}ur, wilcume lauerd [c1275 wolcome]. 1500-20 DUNBAR Poems lxxv. 51 Now tak me be the hand, Wylcum! my golk of maireland. 1568 Henryson's Orpheus & Eurydice 155 (Bannatyne MS.) Fair weill my place..And wylcum woddis wyld. {beta} c1150 De Vita et Miraculis S. Godrici Heremitæ de Finchale (Surtees) 306 Dixit enim hæc verba Anglica..‘Welcume, Simund; welcume, Simund’. a1240 Sawles Warde in O.E. Hom. I. 259 A sei{edh} warschipe, welcume, liues luue. a1300 Cursor M. 8168 Alsuith sum he {th}at king had knaun, He said, ‘sir welcum to {th}in aun’. 1362 LANGL. P. Pl. A. XII. 62 Al hayl, quod on {th}o, and I answered, welcome and with whom be {ygh}e. a1450 Mirk's Festial 222 Welcom, my swete son and cosyn. c1520 SKELTON Magnyf. 920 What! whom haue we here, Jenkyn Joly? Nowe welcom, by the God holy! 1552 HULOET, Welcome euen with all my herte, optato aduenisti. 1588 SHAKES. L.L.L. II. i. 92 Faire Princesse, welcom to the Court of Nauar. 1656 COWLEY Misc. 31 Welcome learn'd Cicero, whose blest Tongue and Wit Preserves Romes greatness yet. 1702 ROWE Tamerl. I. i, Wellcome! thou worthy partner of my laurels. 1766 GOLDSM. Vicar W. xii, Welcome, welcome, Moses! well, my boy, what haue you brought us from the fair? 1842 MACAULAY Lays, Horatius li, Now welcome, welcome, Sextus! Now welcome to thy home! 1865 SWINBURNE Chastelard II. i. 76 Look, Here come my riddle-readers. Welcome all. 1879 TENNYSON Falcon (1884) 105 Welcome to this poor cottage, my dear lady." |
|
Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 8397 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Monday, June 08, 2009 - 11:27 am: |
|
While we're on the subject, here is what MacBain has to say: fàilt , fàilte welcome, hail! Irish, Old Irish fáilte, *vâletiâ, root vâl, vel, glow; Welsh gwawl, lumen; Greek a@'léa, warmth, sun's heat; Gothic vulan, be hot, Old High German walm, heat (Bez.). Cf. Caesar's Valetiacus. Borrowing from Latin valête seems to be Zimmer's view (Zeit. @+30 28). Rhys suggests Welsh gwell; Hend., English wealth |
|
Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 2988 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Monday, June 08, 2009 - 11:33 am: |
|
Welsh "gwell" is a cognate of Irish "fearr" so I think there's no link with fáilte. Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/
|
|
Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg
Member Username: Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg
Post Number: 588 Registered: 04-2008
| Posted on Monday, June 08, 2009 - 11:51 am: |
|
Welsh "gwell" is a cognate of Irish "fearr" Conas a tharlaíonn sin? Where else does Welsh /ɬ/ correspond to Irish /R/? |
|
Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 2990 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Monday, June 08, 2009 - 12:39 pm: |
|
They are both "liquid consonants" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_consonant There may be variation between l and r in many languages, because an alveolar r (as in Spanish for example, or as in Gaeltacht Irish, to make it simple) is quite close to the l sound. In Breton, to say "friend", in some places people say "kamalad" and in others "kamarad". It happens sometimes in Irish too : feirmeoir is feilméara in Connemara. Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/
|
|
Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg
Member Username: Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg
Post Number: 590 Registered: 04-2008
| Posted on Monday, June 08, 2009 - 02:08 pm: |
|
Variation between /l/ and /r/ is much easier to explain than interchange between /ɬ/ and /R/. I literally don't know a single precedent for such a correspondence. McBain's disagrees with the notion that fearr and gwell are cognate, preferring to consider it "a comparative in -is from the prep. ver". This would make if cognate not to Welsh gwell but to Welsh gorau "best". Another possible source is proto-Celtic *werros "raised". (Cf. Breton gorre/gourre "partie supérieure".) Both strike me as far sounder hypotheses than proposing a singular spontaneous mutation of *ll to /R/. |
|
Student
Member Username: Student
Post Number: 108 Registered: 07-2008
| Posted on Monday, June 08, 2009 - 06:45 pm: |
|
quote:...because, like lexicographers everywhere, the compilers of the OED only assembled it out of scraps they found lying round the house. They don't, like, go out and research this stuff. Good one! Now if I can only get this darn foot out of my mouth. www.irishbooksandgifts.com
|
|
|
|