I was having a look through Vicipéid today and came across an article called "An Impireacht Naofa Rómhánach".
This doesn't look right to me - "The Roman Holy Empire" (which would seem to imply there have been other "holy empires"/"impireachtaí naomhtha" around and this is the Roman one :) ).
Following the order of adjectives in the English language ("Holy Roman") seems to be a common error among unskilled translators.
Surely it should be "An Impireacht Rómhánach Naofa/Naomhtha" or "Impireacht Naofa/Naomhtha na Róimhe" (although this second one could be misunderstood as the empire didn't include the city of Rome)?

I've heard historians say it was neither Roman nor holy.

Gan dabht bhíodar ag déanamh athfhriotal na bhfocal neamhbhásmhar de Voltaire: "Ce corps qui s'appelait et qui s'appelle encore le saint empire romain n'était en aucune manière ni saint, ni romain, ni empire."

(Message edited by Domhnaillín_Breac_na_dTruslóg on June 01, 2009)

I notice the official Irish school history curriculum has 'Impireacht Naofa Rómhánach" as well.
("Struchtúr na hImpireachta Naofa Rómhánaí faoi Shéarlas V
agus a chaidreamh idirnáisiúnta." "An Impireacht Naofa Rómhánach faoi Rudolf II." And so on.)

http://www.curriculumonline.ie/uploadedfiles/IrishPDF/lc_hist_sy_ir.pdf

Do you think that's incorrect?

Both Roman and Holy are adjectives in this case.

Compare German (as it was in fact a German Empire)
Heiliges Römisches Reich Deutscher Nation

I don't think there is anything to choose in the order of the adjectives, since both qualify
empire.

But those who coined the term certainly wanted the weight on Holy first and Roman second...

(Message edited by aonghus on June 02, 2009)

quote:

Do you think that's incorrect?

Yes, I think it is.
Am I certain? No.
Is it an important issue? No. Not in itself anyway but perhaps as a symptom of larger trend.

quote:

I don't think there is anything to choose in the order of the adjectives, since both qualify
empire.

"Impireacht Rómhánach"/"Roman Empire"/"Römisches Reich" is the pre-existing term, a unit in itself, to which the additional adjective "Naomhtha"/"Holy" was added therefore adding it to the end seems just as natural for Irish as placing it at the front is for Germanic languages.

Often, as you say, the order of adjectives is of no great importance e.g. "The short, fat man" - "An fear ramhar gearr"/"An fear gearr ramhar".
But, where the noun and one of the adjectives form a unit in themselves it is e.g. "The tall black-man"(African) - "An (fear gorm)(ard)".

N'fheadar.
Is dóigh liom go rabhadar ag maíomh go raibh a nImpireacht Rómhánach agus Naofa. B'fhiú féachaint cén leagan a bhí sna hAnnálacha. Ach tá sé ró the anocht.

"The tall black-man"(African) - "An (fear gorm)(ard)"

Cuimhním aon gearrscannán faoi fear gorm... d'fhéach gach duine air, ach níor labhair daoine leis ar bith. Casadh air cailin, ach nuair a chuaigh siad chun a baile, dúirt a hathair: "Ni fhéidir duit leis amach a siúl! Is gorm é!"

(Message edited by curiousfinn on June 02, 2009)

there has been more than one - ie there has been variations on it..

wasnt the same in the early ad as it was around the time of luther

Feicim gur Impireacht na Róimhe a tugtar ar an Impireacht a bhí ag na Rómhánaigh iad féin. Ní a bhfuil ciall leis, ó tharla gurbh é stát/cathair na Róimhe a bhunaigh agus a thóg an tImpireacht sin.

Bhunaigh Cathal Mór Impireacht eile. D'éiligh sé na cáilíochtaí Rómhánach agus Naofa dá Impireacht. Naofa, toisc gur chreid sé gur le Toil Dé a bhain sé an Impireacht amach.
Rómhánach, toisc gur amharc sé ar fhéin mar comharba dlisteanach Impirí an Iarthair.

Ceal fianaise ó sean foinsí Gaeilge, ní dóigh liom go bhfuil aon cúis Impireacht Rómhánach Naofa a roghnú thar Impireacht Naofa Rómhánach. Feictear dom an dá aidiacht a bheith neamhspleách ar a chéile.