Dia daoibh, arís...

I'm still just a self thought beginner in Irish. One of the nice add-ons I use in my learning is TG4, but I often hear carr, and very rarely gluaisteán, and the same is with clann vs. teaglach...

Are gluaisteán and teaglach more often used only in speciffic parts of Ireland? Or are carr and clann used more because they are shorter words? Or something completely different?

Go raibh maith agaibh,
N::

carr is an older word, gluaisteáin is a neologism.

Clann does not mean the same as teaghlach.

Clann is "my children", although it is sometimes used for family, and there is some shift towards that usage.

Carr is actually the original word for car in Irish, and that is where the English got it from.

It is an original word for a wheeled vehicle, but an autombile is called various things (cairt in Corca Dhuibhne, for example)

Carr is actually the original word for car in Irish, and that is where the English got it from.

The way you've phrased this is somewhat misleading. Both Irish carr and English car derive from the same root, namely Common Celtic *carr-. Obviously, the ancient Celts did not have automobiles; *carros/*carrom designated a two-wheeled cart or wagon for hauling loads. (The word for "war chariot" was probably *carpentom.) This word was borrowed into Latin as carrus/carrum, and thence into English via Norman French.

It was English speakers who first narrowed the meaning to "motor car, automobile", and the Irish usage is influenced by the English, not vice-versa. (Cf. Spanglish carro--also from the Latin word--for Academy Spanish coche.)

Carr is still used for vehicles drawn by animals (although they have become rare ....)

Is fíor sin; carr asail, carr capaill agus carr tineadh.

Go raibh maith agaibh!

'Féni' agus 'Fir Féne' a thugadh na Gaeil orthu féin sular tháinig an focal 'Goídil' chun cinn. D'fhág leathbhreac an fhocail 'fén' an focal 'wain' sa Bhéarla, focal dúchais Bhéarla, a múchadh ar ball le 'wagon'.
Mhaíodh Heinrich Wagner d'fhonn an ghrinn gurb iad a mhuintir féin iad na 'féni'.

'Fénechas' a thugtaí ar an seanreacht.

As eDIL:

fénech

rop f. fenech
Keywords: old; genuine; Irish; customs; legal; lore
Letter: F
COLUMN: 76
Line: 038
fénech
o-ā (Féne) belonging to the féni ; of old or genuine Irish stock : in accordance with the customs of the féni (: clérech in follg. verse exx.) : rop f.¤ `versed in legal lore' Tec. Corm. § 6. 13 . lasan fialchas fenech ZCP x 344 § 20 →
. oclach ... arusc fenech (`of Irish speech ' Thurneysen, taking word as gp. But `a.f.' may be a cheville) Snedgus u. Mac R. 10.7 . a tig rig recht [leg. in rechta] fenich with the law of the féni 12.1 . ba fecht feneach (chev.), Anecd. i 73 § 214 .



fénechas

fenchas
Keywords: traditional; customs; regulations; native; customary; law; foreign; law; custom; traditional; justice; fair; dealing
Letter: F
COLUMN: 76
Line: 046
←
fénechas
o,m. also fenchas (hence by glossators somet. confounded with senchas which was supposed to be derived from it by `cendfochrus,' the substitution of one initial for another, Laws i 32.34
Auraic. 5384 . fenchas ... is he in gnathach indiu `senchas' ACC § 1 Comm. ( LU 485 ). feanchus .i. seanchus, O'Cl.). The traditional customs and regulations of the féni taken as a whole, including the body of the ancient law and somet. the `bérla Féne' ; `native customary law', Binchy, Críth G. vocab., p. 88 . (Thurney- sen, Bürgsch. § 59 n ., renders it `Uberlieferung der Fēni, Irenrecht ', and adds that the phr. `ara-chan fēnechus' is used to introduce a legal statement couched in poetic- rhetorical style, a `roscad') : na cuic curu ata taithmechta la Feine .i. ... do reir in feinechais, Laws i 52.23 Comm. →
is a fenechus (.i. i ssenchus .i. ni i lleabraib ni hi cain) rosuidiged dire lethard do gradaib tuaithe, BCrólige § 5 . dianadbe feinechas (.i. madia roib riar dligidh in fenechais do damthain do), Laws iv 18.21 (20z) . Dist. from Senchus [Már] and Críth Gablach : na se ba fuilit a fut Ḟeinichais, ┐ it inann ┐ na cuig seoit fuilit isin tSenchus, ┐ na se samaisce fuilit isin Crich Gablach, O'C. 2545 (< Eg. 88 , 45 ). amhail isbeir i fut Fenechais : ni nascat cuma comorba, etc. , Laws i 186.13 . co n-abuir tall i fut Ḟeineachuis, nach dilius daghrath, etc. , ii 270.16 . a cumlechtaib Feine .i. a com- slechtib in feinechais i 182.21 . is fás fenechas i condeilgg ferbb ṅDe the common law is void in comparison with the words of God ACC 52 (= fénechas ic ferbaib Dé LU 789 ). Corm. Y 584 . tucaid a denma ainceas brethemnais do cuir [leg. chur ?] for Cumain ... iar leghud leighind ┐ nir legh Fenechas roimhe riam, co ndechaid isin tuaisceart dia foglaim, O'C. 1046 (< H 3.18 , 436 b ). isat airimda bretha rechta isin feneochus YBL 183 b 20 = IT iii 193.11 . ni dēmad fir hĒrenn fīr fear ... na feineachus flatha dūine tar ēis Fhir D. do thuitim linn ZCP x 297.29 . a lucht imdénma in ḟenchuis `ye that adorn the code of law ' Met. Dinds. iii 54.10 . Féinechas Hérenn : Clúain Húama `the Jurisprudence of Ireland-Cloyne ' Triads 12 . Cluain Lethan ardchathair ḟenechais Erenn LB 206 marg. dobreth ardchennus ┐ comhairle ┐ fenechus Érend do Morann ZCP xi 64.15 . Seanchus ┐ Feneachus na hEreann do ghlanadh ┐ do scriobhadh ar tteclamadh ... seinleabhar nEreann co haonmaighin FM 438 . oide foircetail hi ffeineachus (`i.e. , in the Brehon law,' O'Don.) FM v 1682.15 . M. Mac Aedhagain, sai Erend a mbreithemhnacht fenachais ALC ii 592.3 . breitheamhain ḟéineachais Uladh, Keat. iii 172 . conaimes gart fri féne fáth (.i. féle dhó ar a foáith do rér an ḟéneachais ona feraibh nāraibh), Ériu xiii 51.22 . la Feine ... (... .i. do reir in Feinechais), Laws i 84.23 . Transf. of foreign law and custom : Ailfrid ... ró ordnead recht ┐ féneachus na Saxan FM 900 . In wider sense : fenechus (.i. oglachus) ┐ maith do denum friumb duit traditional justice, fair dealing (?) IT iii 242.1 . Cf. cen cop fial fri fenechus `though he be not liberal to warriors ' [generous in observing custom (?). Of a niggardly satirist from whom a king is seeking hospitality], Hib. Min. 65.11 . Equated with `bérla Féne' : Berla Feine .i. in Feinechus no araile berla robui ag Feinius ar leith, Auraic. 4622 . goar .i. solus isin Fenic[h]us (no isin Breatnais) 633 . is de asbert in file do Scotaib isin ḟenechus : Conétaigti, etc. LB 146 a 29 . Cf. Bérla Féine Hérenn : Corcach (with gl. : .i. an iomat breithemhuin ... nó sgol féinechuis ann), Triads 16 .

As Aonghus said, "clann" = offspring or children ; teaghlach = family (parents, children, siblings, grandparents, uncles etc). Teaghlach is related to the word "teach" = house.

If many non-native speakers use "clann" to say "family" today, it's because in English, you often use "family" to refer to your children, and maybe because of the English meaning of the Gaelic loanword "clan". Probably because of a bad usage of dictionaries :-)

I'm afraid this is one of the major pitfalls in school Irish:

"Inis dom faoi do chlann" addressed to a 13 year old suggests he or she has children.

"Inis dom faoi do mhuintir" includes the uncles, aunts, cousins, and even departed grandparents. I once heard Tadhg Ó Sé, Oide Scoile, standing on the gatepost of a church urging his neighbours to elect Dev as Uachtarán with delightful proverbs and old sayings: "Bí i do chrann ar an mhuintir dár díobh thú." (Stand up for your own people / Be a pillar in support of your people) "Ná bain an tua as láimh an tsaoir" (Let the expert at it / Don't take the hatchet from the craftsman's hand.)

Comhluadar is sometimes used as "family" -- Tá ceithre chomhluadar ar an mbaile sin. I have heard the English word used for children: An bhfuil aon fheamlaí agaibh? (although it was probably pronounced as in English except for the lenition.)

Lughaidh is right in his use of "teaghlach" although I would limit it to those actually living in the house, an líon tí.

quote:

I'm afraid this is one of the major pitfalls in school Irish:

"Inis dom faoi do chlann" addressed to a 13 year old suggests he or she has children.

Yeah, I remember once, at the university (in Brittany), in the oral exercise we had to answer questions, and the teacher (who was taught clann=family) asked me "Cá mhéad duine atá i do chlann?", so I answered "Chan duine ar bith, tá mé ró-óg" and he was surprised, till I explained him...

quote:

Lughaidh is right in his use of "teaghlach" although I would limit it to those actually living in the house, an líon tí.

That's what it meant at the time whole families (or at least, families including grandparents etc) were living in the same house. Now it's more complicated.
"Mo mhuintir" can be used to say "my parents" (father+mother) too...

Tá radharc thar a bheith greannmhar san gearrscannán "Lip Service"
(Béaltriail á chuir ar dhaltaí i scoil i lár BhÁC)

Cuireann an cigire ceist: Aon chlann? ar chailín.
Duine amháin, a fhreagraíonn sí.
Deartháir nó deirfiúr?
Iníon! a deir sí

I knew about the ancient origins of carr, but have always assumed that the difference in usage between carr and gluaisteán was roughly equivalent to the difference between car and automobile in english.

All this discussion of carr has made me curious about railroad terminology. According to focail.ie, it's suanchóiste for "sleeping car" but "dining car" is proinncharr.

There is more than one way of skinning a cat.

Ireland is not big enough for the railway to have any sleeping cars, but it does have dining cars. So I suspect the one is a natural development, and the other a creation.


cóiste [ainmfhocal firinscneach den cheathrú díochlaonadh]
feithicil ar dhéanamh carráiste á tarraingt ag capaill; carráiste traenach; bus le haghaidh turas fada.

carráiste [ainmfhocal firinscneach den cheathrú díochlaonadh]
cineál cóiste chun daoine a iompar; cóiste traenach.

carr [ainmfhocal firinscneach den chéad díochlaonadh]
feithicil ar rothaí, go háirithe gluaisteán.

Tá "gleashtan" ar carr/gluaisteán i nGaeilge Mhanann go bhfios dom.
Níl mé cinnte go bhfuil sé seo ina nuafhocail mar sin.

Lars

(Message edited by lars on May 30, 2009)

Bhail, síleam gur s'iomaí focal úr i Manainnis a tógadh ar iasacht ón Ghaeilg nó ó Ghaeilg na hAlbana.

quote:

According to focail.ie, it's suanchóiste for "sleeping car" but "dining car" is proinncharr.

Variations in loan words like these often come about when they are introduced from different places, or introduced at later and later points in the development of a technology, etc.

The concept of "sleeping carriage" may have been introduced from England, where the rolling stock are called carriages (the original "trains" literally pulled a line of modified horse carriages).

Later the Americans changed (or perhaps shortened) the name for rolling stock to "car" and the concept of a dining car may have been introduced from over there.