A chairde,

I'm interested in your different opinions on tú vs the object form thú.
I have done Gaeilge in university here in Uppsala Sweden, up to C level, and done so in a sort of CO way, teacher from Dublin who is not a native speaker. We did use Ó Siadhail's 'Learning Irish' but in general what we did was pretty CO.
Personally I've always wanted to learn Ulster Irish, and have used 'Now You're Talking' for a bit to brush up the very basics after finishing the courses available, and have found that they use Chifidh mé TÚ rather than the object form thú.
Is that specific for Ulster or why is it used here?

Le grá

Linnea (waiting for account username Linnea_cfc32 to be accepted by board)

i would use chífidh me thú , and i use Ulster Irish , but i guess it can depend on your teacher , as you have already found out.
also
Maith thú
cárb as thú ?
cant thk of any other examples at the moment

In Munster to say ''I see'' is ''Chím'' or to say ''I will see'' = Chífead thú

Very similar to the Ulster Irish version.

Thanks guys, I guess it depends on who you are, it was just that they used 'tú' in Now you're talking, and it confused me a tiny wee bit.

Account activated now btw, im now a registered user so thats all sorted out :)

slán

Maith thú agus Fáilte
i have had many teachers and done many courses and have been to various Gaeltachtaí and with TG4 snd RnG
i tend to have quite a mixed bag of verbs and sayings , but mostly Ulster ,

Hi, Linnea.

I also saw tú used as an object in "Now You're Talking" as you mentioned and possibly in one or two other places. "Teach Tourself Irish" by Ó Sé and Sheils has *Cad as tú? in one place, but Feicfidh mé thú ansin. in another. I think Buntús Cainte also had one or two places where tú was used as an object. I just assumed they were errors and corrected them back to thú.

Graiméar Gaeilge na mBráithre Críostaí suggests that thú should be used for the object/disjunctive case in standard Irish as well.

Is there any movement to change that in the standard? (a Thaidhgín?)

See, I always assumed that the reason for Cad as tú? is that the s of as protects the t of tú from lenition in this case (as was historically the rule in Irish).

A Bhreandán, very interesting there, i thought it was an error as well at first when looking at Now You're Talking, but assumed later that you can use both variants as the object.
Now You're Talking is from the mid 90s, no? But on the other hand updated versions of both Ó Siadhail and other books use thú throughout the whole process.

ah, the lenition explanation sounds like a logical one, and if it would have been for instance "Chifidh mé amarach tú", it sounds much more logical since amarach is inbetween, but in the book it was still just "Chifidh mé tú".

So I guess it's just a matter of what you choose to use then, as with many other words.

and thanks for the welcome, Teifeach!

(Message edited by linnea_cfc32 on May 28, 2009)

Both Tchífidh mé thú and Tchífidh mé tú can be heard in Ulster. People rather say "Cárb as tú?" but "maith thú".

It's hard to explain why Ulster speakers use "tú" sometimes as an object, while in Munster and Connachta, as far as I know, only "thú" can be used as an object (except maybe after an -s).

quote:

Is there any movement to change that in the standard? (a Thaidhgín?)

Not that I'm aware of. People in Ireland who do not necessarily know the language particularly well but yet have to use it in their jobs -- such as National Teachers -- often clamor for "simplification" and in the schools the distinction between subject "tú" and object "thú" might well be left to the learner's ability to pick up such distinctions from audio tape recordings. While on a site like this where motivated adults want to get it right first time in a children's classroom such things would be taught with nursery rhymes or poetry or stories and never alluded to.

Incidentally (1) I think "tú" in "Cad as tú?" is in the Tuiseal Ainmneach The Nominative Case as it is the subject of the sentence "Cad [é an baile] as [ar tháinig] tú?" otherwise "Cárb as duit?".

Lenition isn't easy.

Incidentally (2) "cad é an" is probably the long form of "cén".

What love-sick poet said:
"Phósfainn thú gan bhó gan áireamh spré le cead ód mhuintir" -- Is that line right? What comes after it?

Mea culpa! Mo mhíle culpa! Ní raibh na teachtaireachtaí go léir sa sraith thuas léite agam.

Maith thú (Is maith thú = as if the copula "is" could take an object)
Cárb as duit (not "tú" or "thú". You could say "Cárb as tú" but nobody does. [How do I know? I don't. If someone has written it in a book it must be right. Mustn't it?]

quote:

Incidentally (1) I think "tú" in "Cad as tú?" is in the Tuiseal Ainmneach The Nominative Case as it is the subject of the sentence "Cad [é an baile] as [ar tháinig] tú?" otherwise "Cárb as duit?".

That may well be true, but I'm not sure it's in any way relevant to the choice of form, which is normally determined not by case but by distance from the inflected verb. For instance, it's not *thóg mé agus siad but thóg mé agus iad, even though iad is as much the subject here as mé is. On the other hand, you would say thóg mé agus tú which I think is another argument for the final /s/ in the preceding word being a factor.

quote:

Cárb as duit (not "tú" or "thú". You could say "Cárb as tú" but nobody does. [How do I know? I don't. If someone has written it in a book it must be right. Mustn't it?]

Cárb as tú? does exist, just as Cárb as duit?.
Ó Dónaill p. 164 : Cárb as é? and Cárbh as é? (past)...

as well as cá as tú, cá as é...

I'm learning! Foghlaimím rud éigin gach lá. Go raibh maith agaibh araon, a Dhomhnaillín agus a Lughaidh.

Ó Siadhail has "Cé as thú?" In this case it is not the subject, but the object/disjunctive case (the one you put at the end of the sentence.)

quote:

If someone has written it in a book it must be right. Mustn't it?

I know you are only having another dig at the "scholars", a Thaidhgín, but no, not all books are equal. Some like Graiméar Gaeilge na mBráithre Críostaí (GGBC), English-Irish Dictionary (De Bhaldraithe), Foclóir Gaeilge-Béarla (Ó Dónaill), and Foclóir Gaedhilge agus Béarla (Dineen) have been thoroughly checked over.

The respective texts by Myles Dillon and Micheál Ó Siadhail have been very well researched and cross-checked, although they are not without their mistakes and/or typos. Other texts tend to be less well checked.

I always look for confirmation among the more reliable texts. In this case, I can't find any confirmation of Ó Siadhail's phrase, which means it is probably local to the dialect. The reference books support Domhnaillín's "s" rule, so it is probably the way to go in the standard (as well as your "gut feeling", of course, a Thaidhgín. ;-) ).

As Breandán said, what Ó Siadhail does is probably local..what he uses is pretty much Cois Fharraige, aye?

"Cé as thú" is what I was always taught as well, by a native speaker from Ceantar na nOileán (not really Cois Fharraige so.)

I don't know of a book that spells it out for any particular dialect, Linnea... I think you pretty much have to develop a feel for it, either from books or from listening to people. (I could try and distill some guidelines for Connemara based on what I've absorbed, but that's not going to do you much good for Ulster!)

I do know that the CO allows both "tú" and "thú", and that all three dialects use both (but in different circumstances.)

By the way, is that "C level" as in CEFR framework? Maith an bhean. Ba chóir dúinn an plé seo a bheith againn i nGaeilge bhinn bhlasta!

quote:

What love-sick poet said:
"Phósfainn thú gan bhó gan áireamh spré le cead ód mhuintir" -- Is that line right? What comes after it?

Nach ón gClár Bog Deil é?
"Phósfainn thú gan bhó, gan punt, gan áireamh spré
A chuid den tsaol, le cead ód mhuintir, dá mb'áil leat mé!
Mo ghalar dubhach gan mé agus tú, a dhianghrá mo chléibh,
I gCaiseal Mumhan is gan de leaba fúinn ach an clár bog deil..."

Ní heol dom cé a chum áfach.


Hmm. Sin rud eile de: déarfainn "gan iad", ach "gan tú", díreach faoi mar atá san amhrán seo.

Glacaim leis gurm é an n a chuireanns bac ar an séimhiú, faoi mar a dúirt Domhnaillín thuas i dtaobh an s. Ar an taobh eile, táim cinnte diongbháilte de go ndeirim "cé as thú" d'ainneoin an s sin.

Ní hionann i gcónaí loighic agus ceart na cainte!

Fuaireas é seo thíos ar láithreán Lorcáin Mac Mathúna amhránaí ar an sean-nós a bhfuil cuid mhaith amhráin i nGaeilge foilsithe aige:

"This fine song, with its intriguing and splendid melody, was widely sung in Munster in the early decades of the 19th century. The reference in O’Daly's Poets and Poetry of Munster states that the original version of An Clár Bog Déil is better known as Caiseal Mumhan. It suggests further that the song was originally written by an Augustinian friar, the Reverend William English of Newcastle West, Co. Limerick who previous to his taking the Augustinian habit had produced many striking and beautiful songs in his native tongue.

The dual title to the song is understood when you hear the third and fourth lines of the first verse:
Sé mo ghalar dubhach gan mé gust ú, a ghrá mo chléibhe
i gCaiseal Mumhan, is gan de leaba fúinn ach an clár bog Déil.

Again, as is the case with several of these old songs there is a Connacht version with somewhat different words and melody. Seán Ac' Donnachadh used to sing it occasionally.

An é seo an Liam Inglis a scríobh "Ólaim puins, is ólaim tae, is an lá ina dhéidh sin ólaim toddy"?

Is dóigh liom gur Béarla atá sa "bogdeal" -- "An clár bogdéil" the bogdeal plank or board.

Maidir le hábhar an tsnaithne seo, "tú" nó "thú", chloisinn "Cé as ab as tus'?" fadó in Iorras i gContae Mhaigh Eo (Contae Mhuigheo a déarfaidis féin).

quote:

I know you are only having another dig at the "scholars", a Thaidhgín, but no, not all books are equal.

I shouldn't. It is a defence. I don't look things up in books when I write here. I write from memory. Hence I am always in danger of discovering that what I thought I knew well is in fact wrong. Although nothing is wrong to the descriptive grammarian.

One of the beauties for me of this site is the willingness of participants in the forum to engage with issues of Irish grammar etc. That has to be good for the language and for ourselves especially if we can do with mutual respect and good humour.

As for scholars I am in awe of them. The long hours of checking and cross-checking "variae lectiones" demands intellectual stamina and dedication, neither of which I could lay claim to myself.

I am disappointed that so few Gaeltacht people or Irish-speakers from outside the Gaeltacht participate here or even ar an taobh eile. Nevertheless I am sure that for every one of us that has the courage -- or foolhardiness -- to write there are many more who read and lurk. If nothing else the archives of this and other fora will provide interesting material for study in time to come if the owners bother to preserve them.

If the language survives for another 100 years it will have undergone many changes and people will laugh at our heated pre-occupation with small points that were already being discarded in our time.

One remark for learners:

Connemara people use "cé" when you have "cá" in Standard Irish and in other dialects, most of the time. So it doesn't always mean "who".

Cé thú féin? = Who are you yourself (same as in the other dialects)

Cé raibh tú? = Where were you? (> Cá raibh tú? elsewhere)
Cérb as tú? = Where are you from? (> Cá as tú? or Cárb as tú? elsewhere)
Cé mhéad a bhí air? = How much did it cost? (> Cá mhéad a bhí air? elsewhere)

Almost everytime you have "cá" in a question in Munster, Ulster or Standard, you have "cé" instead in Connemara :-)

A Abigail,
not really sure here bout the CEFR, its a tiny bit different over here espec since theres only a handful of us doin celtic languages as a whole. Basically Ive done 3 semesters of irish, the 3rd semester naturally being the C course with the kinda c-essay/thesis at the end of it.
The system is a wee bit dirrerent to other countries so im not quite sure what the equal is. anyhoo...

very interestin and useful inputs from yous all, go raibh míle maith agaibh!!

Ah, I see! Sounds about like what I had in university, then: ours was three semesters of the language, plus a fourth semester of reading and translation. (For those familiar with the CEFR, probably up to a B1 level.)

Sounds about the same to what i had/im havin.