i dont want arguments - or goings of on tangents of unrelated topics
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what is people obsession with the gaeltacht irish

is it only people not from ireland - seems so


i have heard beautiful irish in the gaeltacht and outside by native and non alike


i havent been to donegal, meath or south kerry
but ive been to the rest

dont see the fascination people have for it

(Message edited by conchubhar1 on May 21, 2009)

NÁ COTHAÍDH AN TROLL!

its a question - i want to know the fascination

i didnt criticise it anywhere

Already talked about that : in all the languages of the world, the model to follow, for learners, is the language of native speakers (in the linguistic meaning ie. those who've been speaking it since early childhood in a family who's been transmitting it from generation to generation). And where are the communities of these native speakers? In the Gaeltacht.

Go and read the recent threads about that if you're looking for more about that subject.

fridge
bicycle

adn a few others are rampant in the gaeltacht - i would go to get practive and and learn structure but vocab leaves a lot ot be desired

Fridge, bicycle are from French and Greek, I think. You wouldn't say those who use them in English don't speak properly though. Borrowings are natural.

cuisneor

rothar



do we want to go down the road where 85% of the language goes back to the root form of the word

whereas these cases aren;t even the root - its the english spellings of the original words

Gaeltacht people don't use "cuisneoir" and "rothar" if they don't hear other people using them around them in their community...

so use fridge and bicylcle?

Why even use "fridge" in English when there's a good native coinage available in "icebox"? An "bicycles" could be called "twowheels".

The rarer a thing is the more cherished/ valued/expensive it is.The fluently spoken Irish language is a rare thing in a world of scores of languages and billions of people.That is why momuments and art/ language/ culture is so cherished

Conchubhar > Use whatever you want. Normally, people just use the words their own community use.

Bicycle is "baidhsagal" in Scottish Gaelic too. You see, they even created a Gaelic spelling for it. Looks like borrowings don't disturb anybody there. The normal word to say "teacher" is even "tìdsear".

but why stop with those words

why not import all latin,greek and other words from different languages


my problem is not with borrowings its more like


why use jab when post is already there?

I guess Gaeltacht people don't use cuisneoir or rothar because they look like bookish words created by people in offices in BAC. It looks like many Gaeltacht speakers don't like that kind of words.

Jab and post(a) are not exactly the same, I think. Anyway post(a) is known and used in the Gaeltacht. And it isn't a Celtic word either so even for vocabulary purists it wouldn't be better than "jab".

quote:

I guess Gaeltacht people don't use cuisneoir or rothar because they look like bookish words created by people in offices in BAC. It looks like many Gaeltacht speakers don't like that kind of words

They are bookish words, created by people in offices. I think the main problem Gaeltacht people have with these words is not any ideological objections, but merely that they do not learn them in the natural way they learn other words. Very few poeple read very much in Irish, so these new words for new concepts do not propagate. And sometimes the neologisms just don't catch on because people don't recognise them.

My little fellow puts his bosca lóin in the cuisneoir when he fetches up at his Naíonra each morning. I will have to de-programme him!

Ná deán. Tá sé nadúrtha dó siúd. Scaipfidh na focail seo diaidh ar ndiadh. Níl faic cearr leo mar fhocail, níl ann ach nár chuala muintir na gaeltachta iad.

Even if they are made up words, does it matter? The language does need an official word for a bicycle and a fridge.

I think ''rothar'' would be used all the time in Gaeltacht schools with the children.

Na daoiní a chumas na focla úra, síleam gur chóir daofa focla a chumadh sa dóigh go mbeadh siad sothuigthe do mhuitir na Gaeltachta. Má úsáidtear fréamhacha Sean-Ghaeilge (atá caillte anois) le hiad a chumadh, is cinnte nach dtuigfidh an pobal iad agus nach nglacfaidh siad leofa.

Cuisneoir, théid sé as "cuisne", a chiallas frost nó cold haze. Ach ní focal coiteanta é. Dá gcumfaí rud ineacht mar "prios fuar" nó "almóir fuar" (nó rud ar bith eile a bheadh déanta do dh'fhocla coiteanta), tá mé cinnte go nglacfaí leofa gan fadhb ar bith...

Tá an focal úd "cuisneoir" ann i gCorca Dhuibhne

When I lived in the Gaeltacht long ago there was an old man who lived alone in the house beside our rented house. We spoke every day thar an gclaí. When I got to know him well I realised he was speaking slowly and clearly for my benefit. I also realised he was displaying his learning to me. He listened to Raidio na Gaeltachta throughout the day and knew every new word and phrase he heard and very deliberately introduced them into his conversation with me to see if I knew them as well. That was his way of promoting Irish out on that wind- and rain-swept outpost on the edge of the Atlantic. He did not have a university degree or any claim to "book learning" yet he was engaging with the development of his language with interest and enthusiasm.

Who are these "Gaeltacht people" or "muintir na Gaeltachta" who don't like words like "rothar" and "cuisneoir"? Do they include all those hundreds of highly educated graduates of UCG working in Galway and South Conamara? Seán Ó Cuireáin, An Coimisinéir Teanga ina measc? What of Pádraig Feirtéir, Príomhoide Phobalscoil an Daingin, and all the other wonderful teachers and broadcasters born and reared in the Gaeltacht and happily using Irish every day in their work and in their homes.

Those "people in offices in BÁC" are themselves more likely than not of Gaeltacht origin and are certainly doing a wonderful job helping Irish catch up with English terminology.

This nonsense of trying to foment a division between speakers of the Irish language is just that, nonsense. Irish is spoken by a wide spectrum of people, from the little old granny with her hens at the tip of any of the Gaeltacht peninsulas to the most eminent university professors. I wonder does An tAthair Pádraig Ó Fiannachta keep his "uibhe" sa chuisneoir nó sa bhfridge?

Bhuel, bhí comhrá agam le fear i gCorca Dhuibhne nach raibh sásta leis na focail nua seo. Turscar (ar spam) an focal a phlé muid go hairithe.

Ach ní ionann fáinleog amháin agus samhradh!

quote:

Who are these "Gaeltacht people" or "muintir na Gaeltachta" who don't like words like "rothar" and "cuisneoir"?

Cuir ceist orthu.

quote:

Do they include all those hundreds of highly educated graduates of UCG working in Galway and South Conamara?

I'd say those who don't like these "new words" are mostly people who speak Irish all the time, who live in the Gaeltacht and don't have a job related to Irish (as teacher, linguist etc).

quote:

Those "people in offices in BÁC" are themselves more likely than not of Gaeltacht origin and are certainly doing a wonderful job helping Irish catch up with English terminology.

Ná bíodh fearg ort. Cha rabh mé ach ag inse rudaí a thug mé fá dear. Níl mé ag ráidht go bhfuil sé maith nó olc.

quote:

This nonsense of trying to foment a division between speakers of the Irish language is just that, nonsense.

Who is trying to foment a division between speakers?
Actually, if there are people who foment a division, I'd say these are the people who invent new Irish words that are impossible to understand to native speakers, maybe... otherwise I don't see who.

quote:

Who is trying to foment a division between speakers?
Actually, if there are people who foment a division, I'd say these are the people who invent new Irish words that are impossible to understand to native speakers, maybe... otherwise I don't see who.

Modern or technical terminology in most languages is coined by "people in offices"* so I can't see any reason why it should be different for Irish.
It's not as if "bicycle" or any of the myriad terms like it arose from the speech of ordinary speakers of colloquial English.
Yet this "artificial" word derived from one foreign language (Greek) for use in another (English) would be, apparently, more acceptable and authentic to you than "rothar"!

Any native speaker who truly finds these words "impossible to understand" can't be the brightest penny in the purse :)


*How well they do the job is another matter.

Modern or technical terminology in most languages is coined by "people in offices"*

Really? I thought it was mostly coined by technicians. You know--the same people who come up with the new things that need names.

I have spent time in every Gaeltacht in Ireland outside Kerry.

I have never, ever, met anyone who did not understand the word rothar. In fact outside of Conamara I can never remember anyone not using the word rothar.

I do not know about cuisneoir to the same extent but I can assure learners that the word is used in used and known in the Gaeltacht.

There are 'native speakers' who refuse to acknowledge the possibiltiy that there is an Irish term for nucleur fisson reactor for example but they normally refuse to speak Irish under any circumstances.

Are they really good role models for learners?

Like in all minoritised languages defeatism, hopelessness and simple shame can actually become 'native' attributes.

This is ridiculous I say.

quote:

"Modern or technical terminology in most languages is coined by "people in offices"*"

Really? I thought it was mostly coined by technicians. You know--the same people who come up with the new things that need names.

Are you saying these technicians have no offices? That's a crying shame!

Just to make it tediously clear - I wasn't implying that "people in offices" referred solely to equivalents of "An Coiste Téarmaíochta".

(Message edited by James_Murphy on May 23, 2009)

Well said Ggn.

Neologisms are developed in any language that is in use, albeit only to cater for new domains (e.g. science, technology, media). If the language doesn't modernize, it will become increasingly irrelevant (i.e. it cannot be used for discussing an ever increasing number of topics). Existing words can be (partially or entirely) displaced by neologisms or loanwords if this is fashionable at the time. It is quite normal for any such changes to be regarded with suspicion by older speakers. Their line of reasoning usually amounts to little more than an appeal to tradition, stating (crudely put) that older ideas are better than new ones, which implies that neologisms and loanwords should be rejected. This logically clearly does not hold and no generation ever stopped evolving its vocabulary because of it.

In the case of Irish there seems to be disagreement because some of the developers were born outside the (fíor-)Gaeltachtaí. Looking at the map of the Gaeltachtaí within Ireland, one immediately sees the necessity for this participation. Unfortunately there's very little going on in terms of industry, science, technology, politics, economy, or urban life for that matter inside the boundaries of the Gaeltachtaí. Many modern topics are bound to be left undiscussed in daily conversations between speakers in the (fíor-)Gaeltachtaí. As we don't want the language to become marginalized (as argued earlier), the 'office people' and any other people who expand the language in new domains are actually doing Irish a great service.

In this light, any claim whether one or more "Gaeltacht people" like or dislike the new words is irrelevant. Aside from this I'd like to point out that naming a sample of a few Gaeltacht people (or an unspecified sample for that matter) who like or dislike something can hardly be used as a proof of a statement about the collective.

i could never remember the word for fridge, but after reading this post i'm sure i'll never forget it again!!

go bhfága Dia do shláinte!!

Lughaidh made a good point- about the spelling of bicycle in Scottish Gaelic. That’s how English words should be introduced to Irish too.
Every language borrows words from other languages but they don’t usually change the whole word instead they are modified with time.
The word naturally evolves like the spelling of bicycle in Scottish.
The words bicycle, television, sa bhfridge, they don’t really sound exactly like the English words in Irish, the pronunciation has changed slightly or a lot in cases. Over the centuries borrowed words have become Irish words gradually.

Of course learners will accept newly coined words because all words are new to them anyhow. And like the unregistered poster if you asked me the word for fridge a few days ago I wouldn’t know it either.

It’s not just minority languages like Irish. The French too have the equivalent of Coiste Téarmaíochta. But I believe a lot of French people still prefer words like “Le weekend”.

I will give you a local example.. when my parents were young An Cheathrú Rua was a small village. With dirt roads and no tarmaced footpaths. When the footpaths were built we didn’t have an Irish word for them so we called them the same word our American realitives called them – Sidewalk.
Now everybody calls it a “cosán”. Although the original meaning of “cosán” would be a very small path that leads somewhere.

quote:

The French too have the equivalent of Coiste Téarmaíochta.

Probably but nobody cares ! People keep using the word they're used too or that is the easiest to use. In technical domains, French people like to use English-looking words (they're "cool"). They even create English-looking words that don't exist in English, especially with -ing at the end.

quote:

But I believe a lot of French people still prefer words like “Le weekend”.

Aye, everybody says "weekend". "Fin de semaine" is too long anyway :-)

Bríd : sadhdbhóc (ach tá 'n leitriú casta :-) )

Of course learners will accept newly coined words because all words are new to them anyhow. And like the unregistered poster if you asked me the word for fridge a few days ago I wouldn’t know it either.

You've hit the nail on the head, a Bhrídmhór. The Irish versions of the more common computer terms have been accepted (correct me if this doesn't apply to Gaeltacht areas) because the Irish terminology was introduced when the terminology was still new in any language and hadn't become established in everyday speech. (In Germany the English versions of IT terms are used in nearly all cases - ach sin scéal eile.) Therefore I believe that the great work that is done by the Coiste Téarmaíochta is absolutely indispensable.

The horse has already bolted as far as "fridge" and "bicycle" etc are concerned so it's counterproductive to make a big deal out of it in those cases, one way or another. They have been integrated into Irish for decades - but "cuisneoir" and "rothar" are OK too.


There is such a quantity of borrowed words flooding into other languages from English - due to globalization and the primacy of English in certain sectors - at the moment that even most of the strong languages are taking a standing count. In the past new words were borrowed at a much slower rate allowing them to become eventually naturalized at a natural pace.

Many native German speakers rebel when presented with a new English borrowing for the simple fact they don't understand it. The comprehension issue doesn't come into it in the Irish situation but the problem there is that an unresisted flow of English words into Irish could eventually destroy the syntax and drown the original language.

Is cuimhin liom go ndúirt seanduine liom uair gurb í an Ghaeilge ar "pincushion" ná "poncaisín". Nach deas an focal Gaeilge é.

Words like- Ríomhaire; teicneolaíocht; diosca crua; idirlíon; are accepted in the Gaeltacht. We may not use them all the time but they don't sound odd either.

people have to remember that these new words do have basis in irish - they werent plucked out of the air

quote:

French people like to use English-looking words (they're "cool")

Ná fuil an focal "cuisneoir" cool? ;)

Tá sé cool istigh sa chuisneoir.

How about that?

Is fuar anseo, mar sa hifreann na Rúisigh. B)

Ahh Ref, tá sé ag pusháil... or, ar wobbeláil ar nós gé.