Cád e mar ta sibh?

Tá ceiste agam. Nil fhios agam: why "fein" is sometimes
pronounced with the "F" and sometimes with an "H". Par shampla:

Agus tu fein (agus tu hein) and then when I hear

Sinn Fein (I hear Sinn Fein).

Cád e tá sé ag deanamh anseo?

Slán go foill,
Faber MacMhoalain

From the same speaker? Perhaps the pattern is /f/ after consonants (e.g. Sinn Féin) and /h/ after vowels (e.g. tú féin).

If it's from different speakers, well, that's just dialectal variation.

Haigh Faberm
Yeah i do this , Not sure why really , but i do say agus tú h(f)éin agus Sinn Féin , Never thought about it really. Maybe its a Northern Thing/Ulster Thing!!

Teifeach

Those who pronounce Sinn Féin with an F either are from Munster or don't speak Irish, I guess. Or they know Irish but since they hear it pronounced "Shin fayn" very often in the media, they pronounce it that way too when refering to the party (and "shin hayn" when they mean "ourselves" as a pronoun).
But normally in Irish, the "f" in "féin" is pronounced "f" almost only in parts of Munster: féin is pronounced, in general, as "hayn" in the most part of the island, and "fayn" in some places in Munster.

Moreover, the "f" is pronounced as "f" in Ulster in the set phrase "cheana féin", but "hayn" everywhere else.

another condescending and downright rude post lughaidh - criticising peoples pronunciation

Cá bhfuil tú ag feiscint an cháinte, a Chonchubhair? There's nothing inherently negative about saying that people imitate pronunciations they hear in the media.

I hadn't considered the phenomenon of interdialectal borrowing when I wrote my reply, but I find myself doing it, too. (Not in this particular instance, though, since I speak one of those rare "féin" dialects.) For instance, even though as a rule lt is pronounced lth in Múscraí, I still find myself saying Gaeltacht and not Gaelthacht and, occasionally, Daltaí (with initial stress even!) rather than Dal'thaí.

I don't know if native speakers of the dialect would ever pronounce these words this way, but Ó Cuív did find similar instances. For instance, rialtas rather than expected rialthas (this term being a relative new addition to the dialect promulgated through formal official channels) and 'Connacht rather than Con'nacht (i.e. with predictable stress shift) from exposure to Connacht speakers.

Conchubhar > Nothing condescending there. But I should try to stop writing on this forum, since whatever I write is condescending according to you.

Tchífidh mé thú (excuse me for this condescending Ulster sentence).

sinn féin - shin fay-in

fhéin - héin

i dont dont see what is wrong with that at all at all


mar a duirt mé cheana (féin)

Ná bac leis, a Lughaidh. Mara scríobhfaimis go léir ach chun Conchubhar a shású, ní mhairfeadh an fóram so ar feadh seachtaine.

A Chonchubhair, no one ever said héin for féin is wrong at all. In fact, héin is how Lughaidh says it himself. (Haven't yet met someone who says fhéin [i.e. /e:nʲ/], but I'm suspect they're out there.)

quote:

sinn féin - shin fay-in

fhéin - héin

i dont dont see what is wrong with that at all at all

I won't write again the same thing a hundred of times. So I'll just copy and paste what I wrote above :

quote:

Those who pronounce Sinn Féin with an F either are from Munster or don't speak Irish, I guess. Or they know Irish but since they hear it pronounced "Shin fayn" very often in the media, they pronounce it that way too when refering to the party (and "shin hayn" when they mean "ourselves" as a pronoun).
But normally in Irish, the "f" in "féin" is pronounced "f" almost only in parts of Munster: féin is pronounced, in general, as "hayn" in the most part of the island, and "fayn" in some places in Munster.

Moreover, the "f" is pronounced as "f" in Ulster in the set phrase "cheana féin", but "hayn" everywhere else.

Please read it carefully before accusing me of saying things I didn't say.

it depends on the context

the party name comes from irish - but its a party name and may have different pronunciations

no i fail to see your point


how would you distinguish between


féin and fhéin?

It's a party name and since most people who pronounce it in the media don't speak Irish, they pronounce the F as an F because they don't know most Irish speakers pronounce it as an H.
And since the Irish speakers hear that F-pronunciation all the time in the media, they are influenced and pronounce the party's name with the F sound although most of them would have an H sound in their own dialect.

Is it clear and not condescending now?...

féin - with an f

fhéin - with a h

----
.... agus tú fhéin?

sinn féin

---------

not condescending, never said you were to me

quote:

the party name comes from irish - but its a party name and may have different pronunciations

Alternatively, it may have the same pronunciation across dialects, even if this is different from the way the words would normally be pronounced on their own. (Many Irish-speakers don't have sinn in their native dialect in any case.) This isn't at all unusual with proper names in any language.

quote:

fhéin - with a h

No, fhéin would be pronounced with no initial consonant at all. If you want to represent the pronunciation ['he:nʲ], the only sensible spellings from the point of view of Irish orthography are héin and théin.

(Message edited by Domhnaillín_Breac_na_dTruslóg on May 21, 2009)

fh is silent, no /h/.

Lars

yes ^

Actually, féin is not written with an h in Standard spelling, but always "féin". Most native speakers (in its linguistic meaning!) write féin but say héin...
The spelling "fhéin" is a remnant of pre-standard spellings (and still used in Scottish Gaelic).


If I wrote as I pronounce I'd write "agus tú héin" and "Sinn Héin", but "hana fein" (for "cheana féin").

agus tú fhéin - that is what i said

if you pronounce that with a h how can you pronounce sinn féin with no f

as in ''sinn éin'' ??

how and where are you getting ''sinn héin'' from


not criticising just want ot see the logic and use behinf it

quote:

how and where are you getting ''sinn héin'' from

From Donegal Gaeltacht...

do you spell it ''sinn féin''?

quote:

If I wrote as I pronounce I'd write "agus tú héin" and "Sinn Héin", but "hana fein" (for "cheana féin").

But don't you write as you pronounce?

One of the reasons I don't myself is that I'm never sure what level of detail to go down to. On the Músgraí Uí Fhloinn website, they consistently respell lt as lth. This seems unnecessary to me, since outside of a couple of borrowed words like rialtas and bolta lt is always /lh/ in the dialect, not /lt/. If anything, it would be easier to write *rialttas and *boltta to show that these words are exceptions.

You can find it in the Linguistic Atlas too, p. 297.
The author asked in the 88 places or so how people would say "we will wash ourselves". On the map you can see the pronounciation of the "ourselves" part in all these places.

The "shin fayn" pronunciation is found in several places of Munster and two places in western Mayo. Elsewhere : sinn héin, muid héin, sinn féinig, sinn héineach...

no you rarely write as you pronounce

rialtas to me for govt - but im one of those evil caighdeán'ers

well i know for a fact that most people that didnt grow up or learn irish from a specific dialect would use


agus tú fhéin but sinn féin (the party) - because that is how it is wrote => pronounce it that way

quote:

But don't you write as you pronounce?

Not really, I write more according to the "underlying forms", ie. etymology and morphology of the dialect I use. Actually, most of the time my spelling is kinda old Ulster spelling (before the CO) with some modernised things, like -ú instead of -ughadh etc.

Dá scríofainn mor a iaimnneam cha bheit sea lea gumh furast a thuigbheáilt... Bhe-ú cuid mhór rudaí a bhe-ú dothuice fuinne na naoiní ná bhuil eólas maighch acu eir chanúint Thíor Chonaill :-)

quote:

One of the reasons I don't myself is that I'm never sure what level of detail to go down to. On the Músgraí Uí Fhloinn website, they consistently respell lt as lth. This seems unnecessary to me, since outside of a couple of borrowed words like rialtas and bolta lt is always /lh/ in the dialect, not /lt/. If anything, it would be easier to write *rialttas and *boltta to show that these words are exceptions.

Aye, when a rule is regular it may be different.
You don't write tháim tíng (=tinn) etc. But when the form or etymology is a bit different, I think it may be written.

But it's not written that way! As Lughaidh and Lars both pointed out already, fhéin is nonstandard. In fact, that's a spelling I've seen specifically condemned in normative works.

i dont see why some people insist on picking and choosing

dialect or not
old or new


its confusing to everybody if you mix and match when you see fit

okay maybe i should clarify myself

the op asked ''pronounced'', not spelled

quote:

its confusing to everybody if you mix and match when you see fit

I do this in my English all the time. Is it also confusing to you?

well give an example



and im not saying me in particular - in general - dont use half old speling with northern rules on urú's and some cora cainte from daingean

its just plain confusing to most - except the most highly fluent speaker with a huge interest in all forms of irish

quote:

and im not saying me in particular - in general - dont use half old speling with northern rules on urú's and some cora cainte from daingean

I write in Ulster Irish 98% of time. Sometimes, just for fun, I write in other dialects but I don't mix up dialects (except by mistake sometimes) : the I try to write in "pure" Connemara Irish or in "pure" Corca Dhuibhne Irish. I try to never mix up dialects.

What I write in old spelling are things like "teangaidh" or "ceannóchaidh mé" but I don't think it would make these words impossible to understand... Those who write "ceannód" or "leis an dteangain" don't use old spelling and they may be harder to understand...

You're the first one who ever told me my written Irish was confusing...

again, wasnt refrencing you

in general it is confusing - altho the examples you gave above would be recognised and understood by most with a grasp of irish

I disagree with that last bit. I'm anything but a "highly fluent speaker", and I seldom have trouble understanding anything Lughaidh has written. The differences are there, but they're just not that huge. Moreover, I've seen him moderate his usage somewhat with beginners. I do this, too, to a degree, e.g. writing bhfuil tú instead of bhfuilir and avoiding Munster-specific words like deabhadh. But there's no reason to make these modifications when writing for more competent speakers. It's just not possible to study Irish for very long without encountering dialect differences, so no advanced learner should be thrown by them.

In my native English, I have strong dialectal features like "y'all", "ne'er", and "needs washed". How much I filter these out of my writing depends on the audience. (I don't think I've used any of those forms on this forum, but I don't really remember.) Writing either strictly in dialect or strictly in the most formal register of Standard English would sound odd, so everything I do write ends up as some sort of a compromise between the two.

didnt say lughaidh in particular

and yes even highly competent speakers dont know munster forms etc

going into third year of my degree of irish - i would understand almost all by know - but writeen down is different


its confusing as feck

quote:

Moreover, I've seen him moderate his usage somewhat with beginners.

Aye, I even use Standard Irish when I help beginners :-D

standard is used by more than half of irish speakers

should always be used in writing...

quote:

standard is used by more than half of irish speakers

should always be used in writing...

In formal writing, perhaps, but there ain't nuthin' wrong with non-standard forms in informal writing. As I said, they pop up all the time in informal English and anyone who would object to them there marks himself as a censorious pedant.

Standard is used almost only by learners.
As far as I know, there is no law that says that the CO should be used instead of some dialects. Anyway I don't see why the CO should be used instead of dialects since people understand themselves when they use their dialects even when they're different...

in writing

speaking - i would strongly strongly urge people to not use the caighdeán

that would be the death of forms of irish - whereas too many have already died for diff reasons



but in writing a standard is needed - like most languages do

quote:

but in writing a standard is needed - like most languages do

Standards are useful for some purposes, but they're by no means necessary. Look at Welsh: the old literary standard is all but dead. Even news articles don't use it. 90% of what I see on the Internet is colloquial Welsh of one form or another. Has this doomed Welsh to extinction? Hardly--it's doing better than Irish!

Sinn Féin is not and is never pronounced Sinn Fhéin and it is not a mistake.

It is a proper name.

Sinn Féin is a political party
Sinn Fhéin = ourselves.

Éire is a proper name too and has a number of variants in morphology and pronunciation...

éire is a proper name yes, name some variants?

Haigh
i use Ulster Irish , and i have many problems understanding Lughaidh , as i have told you , and i do think its cause you mix and match your Dialects , to the point that i thought you were useing phoenetics , when in fact you are using other dialects or old Irish that i am not used too ,and i myself have never seen or heard "Sinn héin" ? and i agree with Conchubhar on this

Teifeach

Faber, I put my money wholeheartedly on the explanations by Lughaidh and Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg above.

For what it is worth, my view is that there are in fact two languages called "Irish": one is "natural Irish", a language still spoken by native speakers in the Gaeltacht (and by some of their their descendants in other parts of Ireland and even overseas); and the other is "revival Irish" an artificial political construct closely tied to the caidhdeán oifigiúil or "standard" that is used to try to revive Irish as the official language. (Other people will use other terms for each of these two languages depending on their political leanings.)

The phonemes of natural Irish are different from those of revival Irish. This is because large numbers of contributors to the revival, including many teachers, are non-native speakers and have heavily anglicized pronunciations. Many revivalists are completely unaware of this. It does not help that the national broadcasters and the school system mix the anglicised version with the natural version indiscriminately.

This is like English teaching in Japanese high schools in that in Japan non-native teachers who have often never even spoken to native speakers are employed to teach English. Their spelling and grammar may be perfect but their pronunciation tends to be heavily Japanized. The interesting thing is that Japanese educated in this manner also think that their English pronunciation is better than native speakers and that other Japanese are easier to understand than native English speakers. ;-) (We used to call what they spoke "Japlish"; perhaps the revival Irish would be better termed "Gaelish".)

The natural language is an endangered species. Some consider that an anglicized revival of Irish is better than no revival at all, after all a revival is about quantity, not necessarily quality. Others see the anglicisation as threatening the survival of the natural language, especially its distinctive phonemes, the sounds that give it its "flavour" and that most foreigners of non-Irish ancestry fall in love with.

The way I see it, if you are capable of making the distinction between the natural and anglicised phonemes, you can contribute to preserving the natural language AND contribute to the revival equally by using the natural phonemes. If you use only the anglicised pronunciations you can certainly contribute to the revival (or the creation of a new language) but may inadvertently be aiding in the dilution and demise of the natural language.

*applauds*

Thanks for bringing to light the Japanese parallel; it's well worth considering.

i couldnt disagree with you more Angus , Sorry. Political and artificial , i am neither Political or artificial aand i speak Irish regularilly with a lot of like minded people. Yeah i may have been raised with English , and so maybe its just me saying this again , but i feel being 100% Irish that makes my Irish Native , i know a lot here will disagree , and youse are welcome and entitled to your opinions , and wondering why i continue to pursue this view , the thing is that this debate has been done to death many times and will be debated again and again with No resolution , because as a matter of fact its all only opinions of which we are all entitled too. Your long post in a roundabout Disguised in Japeneese way is saying that the only Irish is Gaeltacht Irish , and that seems to be the consensus of a lot of people on this forum , which is fine , But it is not my opinion as i say , Irish Is Irish Is Irish. I speak Irish in Ireland to a lot of learners and to Fluent speakers and to Native speakers , and i use the same Irish with them All , and we all understand each other And these issues are Never raised , i wonder why !!!. Isnt communication the basic requirement of a language , if you want to take it back to the start of time when Irish started being used, wasnt it no more than a tool for communication, why Now should it be a Sacred Cow ,

Domhnaillín, could you please state your resources for your observation that Welsh doesn't need a standard? Sociolinguist Mari C. Jones came to a different conclusion where it comes to Welsh in her book "Language obsolescence and revitalization". Her research indicates younger generation Welsh speakers favor standard Welsh over the dialects.

According to an international group of linguists asked by UNESCO to determine the vitality of languages in the world (see UNESCO.org > Culture > Intangible Heritage > Endangered languages) there are 9 criteria for language vitality, no single factor being sufficient to determine the state of the language. If no standardized form of a language is being made, it is more difficult to learn the language. This will result in a reduced influx of new speakers which directly affects two factors (absolute and relative number of speakers). Creating educational literature in all dialects is costly up to the point that it becomes unfeasible. Broader Irish education will in all likelihood result in less in-depth Irish education, affecting two more vitality factors (quantity and quality of material).

Given the detrimental effect of a lack of standard on 5 out of 9 vitality factors, I would argue on a theoretical basis that a language without a standard is less vital than one with a standard. On the observational side I know of no vital language without an imposed standard, although clearly I welcome any scientific evidence indicating the contrary.

The proposed distinction of Breandán between traditional Irish and revived Irish is an intricate matter. Any standardized form of a language is intrinsically artificial. For even though originally it usually is based on an existing dialect, it evolves purely by official regulations. As a natural dialect which is developed artificially is clearly artificial, all standardized forms of languages are artificial and therefore Standard Irish is no special case here.

A distinction between traditional and revived Irish is an intricate matter. Language reflects one's cultural heritage, and as for, say, a Dublin-man, this heritage is influenced by English, it is only natural for him to adopt a more anglicized pronunciation. If he is a native speaker (i.e. born in Dublin with Irish as his first language), than his Irish is as natural as any of the Gaeltacht speakers, in that it reflects his cultural heritage. Therefore, I think that although superficially making proposed distinction might seem reasonable, in practice it just isn't very scientific.

(Message edited by an_fear_rua on May 24, 2009)

(Message edited by an_fear_rua on May 24, 2009)

Pronunciation and grammar are such intrinsic elements of a language that I find it hard to understand that any mention of one or other here invariably ends up in an over-emotionalized Punch-and-Judy show.

I think Breandán made some interesting points there - and I don't believe for a moment he was trying to imply to non-native speakers (like myself!) that we're wasting our time because we're not perfect!!

(Maybe there is the occasional troll or two around who enjoys exploiting these sensitive points; just ignore them - they are recognizable by the fact that they haven't ever made any constructive contributions.)

Just because Irish is not my native language and I don't speak like a native speaker, it doesn't have to mean that everytime anybody mentions "pronunciation" or "grammar" in my presence it's like they're stepping on a landmine.

An interesting question would be: what is the minimum proficiency level that Galltacht Irish would have to attain to render it sustainable?

quote:

éire is a proper name yes, name some variants?

Variant in morphology : Éirinn in Connachta and Munster (and parts of Donegal) in the nominative.

Variant in pronunciation : Éire is pronounced as if it were "Éighe" in Gweedore.

Wow! I never imagined this forum could converse such a tiny word to death. I especially appreciate Brendan's discussion on Japlish. It made me laugh. My kids (at Texas A&M) said most of their t.a.s speak "engrish" and are impossible to understand. They are Chinese nationals who think they speak perfect "engrish".

I must say I've never seen such discussion about language. I continue to study and enjoy this forum greatly, and each day I learn a new surprise about mo teanga núa. Is brea liom iontach labhairt an gaeilge. Tabhair sásamh orm gach lá aon. (that's a shot at where I'm at for now).

Slán go foill a mo charai,
Faber MacMhaolain