Do people on Daltaí think that it is rude to speak Irish in the presence of English speakers who have no Irish?

Should Irish speakers have to change to English for the sake of one or two people?



I personally know two people who I have only ever spoken in Irish to in the Galltacht and will continue to speak only Irish to them.
Also I wonder do ye think it strange when Irish speakers swith to English for one person -isnt it their problem if they have no Irish!! This situation could lead to a situation where people who have Irish must talk in English for the sake of English speakers. The language people get to know each other in is the language they should continue in for instance I went to college with three fellas from Conamara. At the time I only started to learn Irish so spoke to them in English . Now I would speak to them in English as I knew them in English. Likewise the two girls I know it would be strange for us to talk to each other in English. The poet Louis de Paor and singer John Spillane decided at 18 they would only speak Irish to each other and I think that Irish speakers should decide to do that no matter what English speakers are in their presence.

if the English speakers want to be part of the conversation and you're excluding them by speaking Irish, that would seem rude. Ortherwise definitely yes, speak Irish.

Is it rude to intrude on Irish speakers?

Is it rude for Goliath to sit on David?

Cén fáth a ghéilleann na cainteoirí Gaelacha?

Is it expected of Irish speakers to die out due to politeness?

Fadó fadó in a Gaeltacht near Corca Dorcha that hosted a summer college the Organiser / Administrator called a meeting of the Mná Tí in the local hall. The meeting was held through .... Irish!

What fun!

The older women were all native Irish-speakers of the old stock. Their Irish was far better than their English.

They could not conceal their astonishment when they heard some of the younger women speaking Irish. Their assumption being that the younger generations spoke only English and knew no Irish. Now they were hearing mostly school Irish with an overlay of the local blas and peppered with some local phrases but good Irish nevertheless. Amazing. What a change.

The older generation would never have dared to speak Irish in public in front of their younger neighbours some of whom were incomers recently married to local men but eager to make a go of life in the Gaeltacht.

Being cool in Corca Dorcha in those days included speaking English at all times possible and the younger women would customarily speak English in preference to Irish except perhaps to grandparents.

This however was a special occasion. They were all on the same side now seeking to prove to the Irish College Organiser that this was an excellent area for such a college.

The younger women were desperately seeking to prove that they too had sufficient Irish to keep students much to the amusement of the older women who could never get a response in Irish out of the younger generation on other occasions. Use of English or Irish in the Gaeltacht is an age thing and a social status thing and a reflection of education and perhaps even of politics.

This custom of not speaking Irish in front of strangers is most enthusiastically encouraged by those in the Gaeltacht community who don't know very much Irish anyway and don't particularly want to learn.

I believe the tide is turning however. Gaeltacht people are more willing to speak Irish in public.

People are more willing to declare their support for Irish and if that translates into more learners and speakers the language may continue to thrive beyond my time and yours.

Irish-speakers may once again discover the value and benefit of speaking Irish cois cliabháin where no other language should be spoken. As for myself I love to hear my children speaking Irish especially if they are not speaking to me! Children? They are almost half my age! Agus táimse scothaosta.

It really depends on the speakers' motives, doesn't it? Switching languages in order to deliberately exclude certain participants would be rude no matter what the combination or direction. But if you have several people around a table and a couple merely wish to have a side conversation in the language they're most comfortable using, what's the harm in it?

The primary purpose of language is communication. Since you won't find many fluent Irish speakers who don't have English (aside from "Yu Ming" etc), it makes sense to use the language that everyone understands if you find yourself in a situation where some in the groud have no Irish. This was the case when I was at Oideas Gael. During walking tours, the first language used by the guide was Irish. This was followed by English for the benefit of those of us who were beginners.

quote:

Is it expected of Irish speakers to die out due to politeness?

Irish won't die out because of speakers not using it due to politeness. It would die out if too many Irish speakers choose English over it with OTHER IRISH SPEAKERS. Ultimately, people who only speak English at this time must be 'recruited' into the ranks for Irish to advance further. Using Irish around people who can't speak it (thereby excluding them) isn't a good way to do that. How hard is it to switch between the two if you're fluent?

Having a side conversation is another matter. Gaeilge amháin seems very reasonable.

(Message edited by Danny2007 on May 13, 2009)

quote:

Irish won't die out because of speakers not using it due to politeness. It would die out if too many Irish speakers choose English over it with OTHER IRISH SPEAKERS

But that is the point. The habit of speaking English in public (or when only one of the party does not speak Irish) means that people DO NOT DISCOVER other Irish speakers.

Tadhgíns anecdote above is a crystal clear case.

But in an urban setting, the situation is more extreme. People can know each other for years without being aware that they are both fluent speakers of Irish, unless they happen to bump into each other in an Irish speaking context. The habit of switching languages makes such contexts more difficult to find.

Should Irish speakers have to change to English for the sake of one or two people?

On exceptional occasions perhaps but definitely not on a regular basis. But maybe this question should not be formulated - as is invariably the case - in such a way that puts the Irish-speaker a priori on the defensive. Look at it another way for a change. Just as it would be rude to barge in with a pub song on, say, four people playing a string quartet, non-Irish speakers should be educated to be more sensitive about bludgeoning Irish conversations with behaviour which would be regarded in any other context as primitive. OK, the commonly accepted "wisdom" is that because everyone can "sing pub songs" and relatively few can "play in a string quartet" we all should cop on and "sing pub songs".

I think the concept of "nós na gaeilge" is very important in the whole context. Similar to what was said above by others I think it is true that if I start off speaking a certain language to a certain person I will probably continue speaking it to that person - even, as has been the case with me on occasion, if we both share a different mother tongue.

Those who are brought up in an English-dominant environment - cainteoiri dúchasacha san áireamh - find it hard to really believe that there is life outside the English language that doesn't need to revert to English as the default language when it comes to discussing serious matters.

Strangely enough, the multi-lingual environment in Ireland nowadays should actually facilitate people in using Irish. If you are comfortably fluent and intone the language as if it were just another normal language - and not some kind of demonstration like dancing a jig on the street - then I believe a lot of the negative static about speaking Irish in public, or in company, would not arise in the first place.

(Message edited by ormondo on May 13, 2009)

But I'm referring to people who have Irish and know that their friend/relative/whatever has Irish, but more often than not, use English in preference anyway. But I take your point.

The original question:

quote:

Do people on Daltaí think that it is rude to speak Irish in the presence of English speakers who have no Irish?

Define 'in the presence of'. If, for example, you're talking about someone who has just joined you and your friend in the pub and clearly wants to get in on the conversation, it would seem rude to me to continue in Irish if:

- All three individuals know that the new guy has no Irish
*and*
- All three individuals have a common language (in this case, English)

The alternative is to continue in Irish and let the latecomer wait or find someone else to socialise with.

On the other hand, if we're talking about someone within earshot and one who could *potentially* want to join in on the conversation, then no, I don't think people should be expected to switch to English.

It depends on many factors and is made all the more complicated by the fact that everyone knows that Irish speakers can speak English too. Most more fluently than the Gaeilge.

I don't think switching to English for the benefit of mutual communication and inclusiveness for short stretches (sticking with the pub scenario) is unreasonable. It's not going to cause you to lose your Irish. What might cause that would be to get into a habit of speaking English out of preference with those who have Irish too. Non-Irish speakers shouldn't be punished or excluded if it can be helped as that merely reinforces the negative stereotypes of the arrogant gaeilgeoir.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFSjp4pzbZ8

I love this RTÉ clip :D

The problem arises with public meetings and community celebrations and ceremonies. Since "they all have English" and some "have very little Irish" or there are "visitors" present it takes a very strongly-motivated / dedicated speaker to address the meeting or congregation in Irish.

There is a ferocious dispute over this very question going on at the moment over the language of instruction in Pobalscoil an Daingin. Gaeltacht "fringe towns" tend to be proud of their English and their historic ability to lord it over the poor "cábóga" from the country-side gave them a sense of superiority.

There is a lot of hidden tension and suppressed anger in such towns over the change in status enjoyed by the Irish language since the foundation of the State. One feels they are waiting for a change back to the good old days when you could despise the Irish-speakers and make them speak English.

I heard the same when I spent the summer in Dún Chaoin. My employer (who raised her kids solely through Irish with her husband) made it clear to me that her kids (now in their 20s and 30s) kept their knowledge of Irish as quiet as possible as certain people in Dingle-Dangle looked down on them. Seems Irish was only retained by the fishermen and their families and few others in Dingle even a century ago.

She is proud of Irish and I almost never heard her use anything but Irish with her husband, kids, and neighbours. At the same time, the attitudes displayed by some in town irritated her and I got the sense she's very disappointed by the Irish people collectively for not reinstating it as the main day-to-day language of the nation. Hypocrisy by those who should know better, such as the RnaG host who only uses English in the home...an example she brought up more than once...and people being dishonest in order to get the €€€ from grants has caused her a lot of frustration. To the point where she said she believes "Irish won't be a living language anymore in twenty years". A remark I made reference to in another thread recently. Hopefully it was just a bad day as I found the comment shocking and tried my best to convince her that Irish would persevere.

(Message edited by Danny2007 on May 15, 2009)

(Message edited by Danny2007 on May 15, 2009)

(Message edited by Danny2007 on May 15, 2009)

Its a complex situation.

There is a propaganda battle to be fought in the Gaeltacht, and at its edges.

If things continue as they are the days of Irish as the language of living communities is numbered. Fishing and agriculture - the staples of Irish speaking employment for centuries are in a bad way. Cheap manufacturing doesn't happen in Ireland anymore (and didn't help the language much anyway).

We need small high tech cottage industries staffed by Irish speakers, something like Bárd na nGleann

http://www.bardnangleann.com/

This is Always gonna be a Tricky queston , as it depends on the circumstance , and is best treated on a one by one basis as too whrere and when and how the situation occurs , all i would say is that if you can , Speak Irish , i.e , if you are in a cafe with friends for the purpose of speaking and useing your Irish, like i do regularly now, and there are people in tables close by , or waiters etc come to clear the table , that is No reason to revert back to English unless actually thanking them or speaking to them , which can usually come out as Go raibh maith agat , unintentionally.

Teifeach

On that topic, and the topic of "discovery"

Some of us from the Ciorcal Díospóireachta in Dublin have been going on to the Duke Pub in Duke street.

The Irish bar staff now do their best to speak Irish to us, and we usually do all our nusiness with them in Irish.
This developed naturally - because they heard us speaking Irish, and once or twice we forgot to switch when talking to them to order while in mid flow.

Sin scéal maith a Chara , and maybe food for thought , no pun intended lol

Teifeach

Danny2007 has alluded to aspects of the Gaeltacht that are seldom recorded. On the one hand there is the encouragement offered by the poets and dilettantes who formed the Gaelic League and sought to learn Irish for their own purposes leading on to the adoption of the Conradh na Gaeilge policies in the new fledgeling State and on to the present day. We are all in favour of Irish. We love it. We don't know it and we don't particularly want to make any great dramatic efforts to learn it but we hope someone else will and that it will survive and be a tourist attraction for ourselves and visitors to the country. "Oh! Yes! We have our own language, you know! Searan Ní Bheoláin. Tabhair dom cáca milis. An bhfuil cead agam dul go dtí an leithreas!"

On the one hand there is the pressure to use English and the deep-seated almost pathological resistance among non-natives in the Gaeltacht -- where spoken Irish is a reality -- or on the edge of it -- where it is a threat -- to allowing native speakers to use their inherited Irish even with people whose education would suggest they should be able to understand the amount of Irish required.

I could fill a yard of this message board with examples. Here are a few.

1. In one of the islands I overheard a young lad speaking to the Public Health Nurse. He was telling her in Irish of the pains he had. She listened and responded in English over and over again. Irish - English; Irish - English. He got no encouragement from her to continue in Irish. I found myself consuming pints later in her company and I asked her why did she not speak Irish to him. "Aw! The poor fella. Sure he knows no English. He'd never hear it if someone didn't speak it to him!"

2. In a restaurant in a "fringe town" I was unfortunate enough to order "Dhá chupán tae, más é do thoil é" from the girl behind the counter. When she didn't understand I was unfortunate enough to repeat the order slowly and clearly with an appropriate two finger gesture to illustrate. The manageress / proprietor mis-interpreted my gesture and all hell broke loose. Apparently the girl was over from England for the summer with her grandparents and earning a few pounds pocket money. Among the things the lady said to me was one telling remark "We're not grant-aided here. We don't have to speak Irish to you!"

3. In the local hospital I was told "We don't have to speak Irish to you here. The Guards get paid extra for speaking Irish. The teachers also. We don't. So &$%# @*^, yourself and your Irish!" Lovely people! :-)

4. In a shop I was greeted with "You know you'd do better speaking English to me. I don't know what you're saying!"

5. The priest told me "They all know English" as a reason for not bothering to learn the Irish Mass.

6. The Principal of the Primary School greeted native Irish-speaking parents with "Ní cainteoir dúchais mise!" which implied she'd prefer if they spoke English to her.

I could get angry but I don't because things have improved. The dream of the "poets and dilettantes" has borne fruit and there is now a television station with camaras to record whether the Superintendant of the Garda or the Bishop or the local doctor, the teacher, or anyone else in these impossibly high-status positions can speak the language. The shoe is on the other foot.

All that is required is for the Gaeltacht people to maintain their pride in their culture and teach it to their children and use it with everyone and for those of us living in the Galltacht to become a teacher, even of one or two phrases. If you know a sentence or saying in Irish pass it on. "Each one teach one" should be our motto.

Ar aghaidh linn agus tugaimis tacaíocht dá chéile.

This medium especially facilitates the transmission of Irish but we all need to use it in the most important place of all: cois an chliabháin. (Tá brón orm má tá botúin sa sliocht seo. Níl am agam é a athléamh.)

There are many stories like that Taidhgín but also many many other stories of hope and of glorius friendships that have came out of the Language learning process , in some ways im not suited to be on Irish Forums like this ( Thats in no way an attack,as i think the work done on sites for the most part is amazing) as i feel i am too optimistic and sensitive towards the Language. And i would like to think that i am not too optimistic or overly optimistic , i guess i just happen to see the good things i.e Raido, TV, newspapers , the thousands of people on line with an interest in the language both foreigners and Irish abroad. I think it is up to each person to have his own opinion if the Irish Language glass is half empty or half full , i gladly choose the latter. And all are more than entitled to their opinion.
In many ways i think the Language is in a Golden stage , although as we know it has many faults , i feel secure in the knowledge it will survive for a long long time to come. I know that i for one am basking in the rays of Gaeilge regularly , and its absolutely amazing the amount of Irish spoken and the interest here , and this isnt even a Gaeltacht.

Teifeach

Tá súil agam go bhfuil a fhios agat go bhfuilimse ar aon aigne leat. The glass is almost always half full with me. Knowing the Gaeltacht as I do -- especially the small pockets of Irish speakers where there is no critical mass to enable them to have support from all-Irish secondary education for example. Caithfidh na tuismitheoirí óga an fód a sheasamh in aghaidh gach aon Bhéarlóir (atá) cumhachtach sa cheantar agus an Ghaeilge a labhairt lena bpáistí féin.

I think a very powerful framework has been laid down both here and in Europe which will gradually show results. Each generation has to face the issue for themselves. In a way there is no difference -- except in degree of usage -- between the Irish, the Danes, the Dutch, and other small nations. We all have our local native languages and an international language. Theoretically we are on a par with these other non-English-speaking countries. How we rise to the occasion is up to ourselves nd those who come after us.

I think there is a great need for more adult education in Irish like the courses provided by Gael-linn and Gaelchultúr. There should be more and more of them throughout the country. Throughout the country? The world!

An mbeadh suim ag éinne freastal ar chúrsa Gaeilge i Chateau deas i ndeisceart na Fraince? Faoin ngréin? Cois na farraige? Ceacht a hAon: an fhíniúin, na fíniúnacha; an caor, na caora; na caora fíniúna; an fíon, gléigeal nó craorag? (Ólaim fuisce craorag!) gloine fíona; sláinte! Táimse ag dul a snámh. Céard fúibhse? :-) D'aonghnó atáim. (=Only joking!)


fíniúin - a (grape)vine; caor = a berry; caora fíniúna - berries of a vine i.e. grapes; glé = clear; craorag = crimson / neat

Tá a fhios agam a chara, tá muid ar an scéal céanna le chéile. Is dócha go bhfuil a fhios agatsa ag an phointe seo , cén cineál duine ina bhfuil mé. Tá mo chroí go hiomlan istigh sa theanga. Gabh mo leithscéal níl mórán eile le rá agam.

Is mise le meas

Teifeach

I read, not long ago, of a journalist, who, with a colleague, caught one of Belfast’s “black taxis” up the Falls Road. The two men commenced a conversation in Irish, but were rebuked by another passenger, a middle-aged lady, for rudeness in using Irish when she had none. What I like best about this story is the Belfast assumption that all conversations, however private, are in the public arena!

The two men commenced a conversation in Irish, but were rebuked by another passenger, a middle-aged lady, for rudeness in using Irish when she had none.

Does this Politeness-to-the-Point-of-Self-Destruction Injunction extend to all fields of human activity, or is it reserved for the Irish language alone?

Consider other activities which also require a relatively intense degree of previous training or tuition which not everyone is prepared to go to the bother of doing. Take, for example, hurling or rugby. Imagine someone who had never taken up either sport - but could play a bit of soccer like everyone else - strolling on a weekend afternoon on to a hurling or rugby pitch when a top club game is in session with a big round ball under his/her arm expecting the players on the pitch to cease their previous activities and to have a few kicks with him. "Ah, come on lads, cop on; everyone can play a bit of soccer. You know, it's rude to exclude somebody from partaking in a game by not switching to the game that everyone can play. Come to think of it, it's just as bad as walking into a pub where people are speaking Irish to one another and continue on doing so after you join the company."

One would wonder whether the last part of the argument, whose cogency otherwise enjoys such widespread recognition, would cause the lads in Croke Park to jettison the hurleys, or the leather egg, and switch to having a few kicks. And if mo dhuine turned up again the next weekend expecting the same treatment? If this went on and the lads felt compelled to be polite all the time some newspaper headline would soon read: NO GRANDSLAM EVER AGAIN FOR IRELAND: IRISH PLAYERS TOO POLITE!

But then again, analogies are ridiculous, aren't they.

(Message edited by ormondo on May 16, 2009)

As a youngster long ago I used travel by bus to the Irish-medium secondary school I attended. Other students used the same bus. We talked together. Upstairs. In Irish.

After a little while a passenger at the back gave vent to his annoyance in a distinctive Dublin accent "I hate f***k** Gael-linn."

At that time Dónall Ó Móráin's dream of creating a business venture that would be run through Irish and funded by football pools, Gael-linn, was in full swing and a lunch-time sponsored radio-programme of theirs made the name well-known.

We were delighted and knew we were teenage rebels breaking the mould. The conductor on the Number 11 bus spoke Irish to us. Laethanta aoibhne ár n-óige.