1) This forum is self selecting.
2) It does not represent the full spectrum of views or knowledge on Irish. It does, however, have views from almost all points along the spectrum.
3) Different participants have very different approaches to, and intellectual tools to get to grips with languages
4) For people in Ireland who have some connection to Irish, this connection is frequently tied up with their self identity, and goes deep emotionally.

We often have debates here which generate much more heat, and little or no light.

Often people are talking completely at cross purposes - one point of view being dispassionately scientific, the other being emotional and deeply personal.

Such debates are seldom useful (although they may bear fruit later).

The other point is that, after nearly 15 years speaking Irish online, I must point out that there is a subspecies of troll. One which frequently protests in English that it is all for Irish, and then happily begins to undermine those doing their best, but failing to adhere to some arbitrary pet shibboleth or other.

This has been a feature of the Irish language movement for over a hundred years, regrettably.

Maybe the answer, Aonghus, is tolerance. We shouldn't force shibboleths on others, right?

I agree completely with Aonghus. I am heartily sick of this negativism and elitism. To what end would any sane person want to learn Irish if his or her only role is to sit quietly in a corner – in awe of the native speaker? Thank God that Tomás de Bhaldraithe, Eoghan Ó Tuairisc, Michael Davitt, Gabriel Rosenstock, Seán Mac Maoláin, Máire Mhac an tSaoi, Muiris Ó Droighneáin, Liam Mac Cóil, Risteard Mac Gabhann and thousands of other scholars, writers, singers, journalists and educators born outside the Gaeltacht had the wit to see a simple truth: that human beings can learn languages and can make their own of them. With a little humility – and with the recognition that they are going to have to master a new sound system, a new grammar and a different idiom – learners can and do contribute to the survival of this language. I for one don’t intend to be robbed of my birthright by some geographical fluke.
Spleoid orthu sin a thógfadh Claí na Muice Duibhe idir an Ghaeltacht agus lucht na Gaeilge sa chuid eile den tír. Is ionann sin agus breith bháis ar an Ghaeilge. Le gach teachtaireacht chúngaigeanta a sheolann siad go dtí an fóram seo (agus fóraim eile, faraor) léiríonn siad méid a n-aineolais agus doimhneacht a saoithíneachta. ‘Seant’? Cant.

Unfortunately all that Lughaidh and Seant wrote in the Dialects?!!! thread is true from the scietific/linguistic point of view of course. It's just as undeniable as the fact that the Earth is round.

Claiming that all the Irishmen has natural and proper pronunciation when speaking Irish is another nonsense. Then why is the pronunciation of sounds so different between Gaeltacht and Galltacht? Why so many people from the Galltacht can't make the difference in pronunciation between dhá and gá, leabhar and leabhair, Cáit and Cháit, though those sounds are so natural for the language and native speakers have no problem with them?

Stating that one's learnt Irish is as good as native speaker's Irish just because they both were born in the same country is nonsense. The Swiss don't claim to be naturally gifted in 4 languages just because they live in a country with 4 official languages, they have to learn them and their different pronunciations.

I've heard on many occasions how the Irish case is unique, but I think the same standards in language learning, teaching and treating should apply to every language in the world.

Some facts:
Native speaker is one who simply speaks a language naturally from the cradle. Everyone has his native language, usually it's the first language one learns from birth. You can't just have the proper sounds of any language appart from your native one (though some can be similar), you have to learn them. All over the world in language learning and teaching, for those who want to learn a language, native speakers of the language are always set as a pattern to be followed. The highest level, one can achieve in language learning, is near-native-speaker level. The best way of learning a language is to imitate its native speakers. Such rules work for every language in the world, so why Irish should be treated differently (there are many endangered languages)?
And I don't find those facts to be discouraging. If such facts were putting people down, nobody in the world would want to learn a foreign language.

But I think I understand why Irish people treat Irish language so emocionally. It's just they don't accept English to be their native language, though from the linguistic point of view it is. So when someone says that Irish isn't their native language, they're indignant at it, because without Irish they are left with nothing as they treat English as foreign, not theirs. It's like someone took their identity. But non-native speakers aren't less Irish (in national, cultural or traditional sense) than native speakers! The native language is just different.

I really admire their patriotism though. But to learn language properly one has to imitate the native speakers. And I don't understand why it is so difficult to admit that. Native speakers of Irish aren't better nor worse than non-natives, they just had this luck to be born in Irish speaking environment, in Irish speaking families. They acquired the language naturally from birth. Is there a better source to learn Irish, which we all love, incessantly transmitted from generation to generation for centuries?