Well there is a respectable divergence of views on whether producing legislation and official documents in two languages, when everyone in the country speaks English and such documents are never/almost never requested in the other language - the output of these bilingual services can be filed straight in the bin as in some cases not a single person requests these documents - is a good use of money. Yes, it creates Irish language jobs. No it does not teach a new generation Irish. No it does not meet a need.

Maybe the people employed translating tripe into tripe in Irish should be asked to go and work in gaelscoileanna instead. Official bilingualism is an expensive form of tokenism that does not advance the Irish language.

There would be a greater argument for producing official documents in Polish

Old hat, seant.

*Not* giving information in their chosen language to people in the gaelatcht is a major factor in convincing people in the gaeltacht to not transmit the language to their children.

And the stories about "not a single person requesting document X" have been exposed several times as false. Either the document didn't exist to be asked for, or was available free online and accessed, or its availabilty was not published...

And the costs are also exaggerated - something which has also been proved several times.

BTW Daithí, you seem to have mixed up two stories from the Westmeath Examiner - according to Conchubar, there was no link being made between the flu and Irish. The link was between money problems in teh council and the alleged burden of translation.

http://igaeilge.wordpress.com/2009/04/28/an-ghaeilge-agus-fliu-na-muc-gaolta-no- an-bhfuil/

It's still the old red herring, of course.

I agree with much of what Aonghus says but there is an important point here. Those engaged in translating into Irish documents such as The Radiological Protection Board's annual report (or EU regulations on tractor engines) are some of the best language experts we have. They are almost all graduates with post-grad qualifications. They have to sit very exacting examinations to gain Foras na Gaeilge Accrediation or to gain employment in Tithe an Oireachtais or in Brussels.

I sometimes wonder if their expertise could be put to better use in translating (or better still, writing original Irish language texts)documents more likely to be used - such as children's books, school textbooks, an Irish version of Euronews srl. We have to find more rewarding work for these people. I know capable translators who experience a kind of burn out after years of ploughing through routine administrative documents.

Another important point: we are getting to a stage where little is actually written in Irish. Most of what is produced in Irish is a translation from English. Even if that translation were excellent (which is far from being the case) Irish would still suffer from existing in the shadow of another language.

Níl aon easpa leabhair do ghasúir ann.
Go deimhin, táthar ag foilsiú a lán i nGaeilge - i bhfad níos mó ná atá á léamh! Tá thart ar deich leabhar nu aa foilsíodh ó deireadh na bliana seo chaite ceannaithe (agus léite - don gcuid si mó) agam.

Tá bearna mhór ann san margaíocht, seachas san ábhar a bheith ar fáil. Agus bearna mhór eile san eagarthóireacht - seans go bhfuil deis ansin don aicme as a tógtar aistritheoirí faoi láthair.

Maidir le routine administrative documents; tá gá dul i ngleic leis an meamráiméis as Béarla nó as Gaeilge. Plain English, agus Gaeilge Glé. Ansin ní bheadh an dua chéanna ag baint len iad a thiontú idir teangacha.

Another point to mention is that the translations are paid for out of the administrative budget of the body concerned. So if the requirement was dropped, there would not be a penny more spent on any other worthy cause, Irish language or otherwise.

Scriobh Aonghus: '[ta] bearna mhór eile san eagarthóireacht - seans go bhfuil deis ansin don aicme as a tógtar aistritheoirí faoi láthair. '

Aontaim leat go huile is go hiomlan. Sin go direach an cineal ruda ata i gceist agam nuair a deirim nach bhfuil sochar mar is ceart a bhaint as scileanna teanga na gceimithe is fearr ata againn. Ta an ceart agat nach feidir an t-airgead a chaitear le haistriuchan a aistriu go 'ciste na heagarthoireachta'. Ni bhionn cursai riarachain choiche chomh simpli sin. Ach ta a fhios agam an meid seo: nil ach roinnt ceadtai duine sa tir ata in ann an Ghaeilge a scriobh mar is ceart. Ta gach dara duine den dream neamhlionmhar sin gafa leis an aistriuchan oifigiuil / leathoifigiuil ar theacsanna nach leitear ach ar eigean. Creidimse go bhfuil cumas agus buanna na ndaoine sin a gcur amu.

Is fíor dhuit go pointe. Ach creidim go láidir go bhfuil sé riachtanach go mbeadh cumarsáid ag an Stáit trí Ghaeilge le muintir na Gaeltachta agus leo siúd sa Ghalltacht atá ag iarraidh teaghlaigh gaelacha a bheith acu.

Is cinnte go bhfeadfaí eagar níos fearr a chuir ar chursaí, agus go bhfeadfadh cumarsáid an stáit i ngach teanga a fheabhsú.

Ach ní chuige sin a bhí an duine a scríobh an alt úd san Iniuchóir Iarmhíach. Ná i 99% dóibh siúd a ardaíonn ceist na n-aistriúcháin - Brian Ó Sé agus John Deasy ina measc.

Tá drogall orm fiú an orlach a ghéilleadh dóibh, mar sin.

Aonghus, if the translations of EU directives on chemicals allowed in agricultural effluent into Irish were dropped - I think you will agree there is a certain type of official document (such as detailed EU directives) that are rarely requested in ANY language!! - the admin budgets of the departments concerned should be reduced.

A department of Irish education should be created, using the money taken from all other departments, and part of the Education Dept funds and excusively in control of the Gaelscoileanna. And internally this department should run entirely in Irish.

It could be better for Irish in the long run, although I know Aonghus will feel that it is the principle at stake - that a country should produce its official documents in its official language.

Rud ineacht greannmhar le déanamh :

nuair a gheobhas tú an péipeár ó oifig na gCánach (na Coimisinéirí Ioncaim nó cibé ainm atá orthu!), seol ar aist chucu é i ndiaidh duit scríobh air "ní thuigim" ! agus tá mé cinnte go n-éireochaidh leofa aistriúchán a dhéanamh !!! An duine ar mian leis airgead a fháil, foghlaimeann sé teangthacha go gasta nuair is gá :-D

Is iad na Coimisinéirí Ioncaim ceann des na dreamanna is fearr ag plé i nGaeilge le lucht na Gaeilge.

Seant, I agree with most of your "should be"'s - but that is just what they are. Should be's. The evidence is that the only way to influence the State Service is by compulsion. And there is no way your scheme would work in any civil service.

I am not in favour of the principle as an absolute principle. But it is a simple, well documented, fact that the inability of the agents of the State in the gaeltacht to do business in Irish has contributed to the decline of Irish in the gaeltacht.

I am therefore against retracting any part of the Official Languages Act based on the spurious and misleading polemics in the newspapers - until the schemes have had a chance to take hold. Then a review and recalibration would be in order. It should also take into account the whole of the States communication with the public, in any language. Plain English and Plain Irish in communication is what is required.

...legislation and official documents in two languages, when everyone in the country speaks English ...

...and how many read English?

"According to UN figures, 23pc of Irish school-leavers are functionally illiterate in English..."

How many are functionally literate above basic tabloid level?


This and mention of EU directives leads us to another sensible money-saving proposal: EU directives should be issued - according to our democratic tenets - in the majority language (German) and should only be translated on a case-by-case basis with the translation to be paid for by the applicant.

In Ireland, half the official documents should be directly drafted in Irish and half directly in English. If you need a translation, you pay for it. That would be a just way to save money. In this way you would free up some Irish specialists for the publishing industry, and the people freed up in the English sector could give reading lessons!

(Message edited by ormondo on April 29, 2009)

There are many ignorant monoglots in Ireland and in the UK.
These two small islands have a huge mental block when it comes to learning a second/third language.I am blessed I was raised in the Gaeltacht and Irish was/is my first tongue.I had to learn English when I went to school in the 1960s.A second/third language is a very light burden to carry actually the easier it is to learn once you get learn the second language.I have a smaddering of French and I do not hate continental languages.Monolinguism is a suresign of xenophobia/ laziness/ superior than thou attitude which I found very common in the working class in the UK. I lived there for 17 years and amongst the less enlightened the attitude is very common.This same attitude is common in Ireland towards our own truly unique bit of culture our native tongue.And the language is older than English.
B'fhéidir go bhfuil sé thar am an Bunreacht a athrú agus an Ghaeilge a chur san uaigh an tuairim atá ag go leor den drean sin.
Perhaps those people should refer to themselves as "West Brits" because sure as hell I would not want them to represent Ireland in any shape or form not even at "synchronised swimming" at the Olympics and we all know what a truly remarkable honour Synch swimming is for any country!!.

(Message edited by mickrua on April 30, 2009)

I doubt you did find a superior than thou attitude in the UK working class. People in England don't deprecate learning languages. They just find it hard - and it is easy to make the easy choice not to learn them if you do speak the international language. It sounds like you may have spent 17 years in England with a sense of moral superiority over the England. Such feelings of superiority can go both ways. You simply do not understand English culture if you think English people believe they are too "grand" to learn foreign languages. I do wish learning Irish could be divorced from these nasty political attitudes that come with it. You feel that being Irish gives you a licence to hate. It doesn't.