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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2009 (May-June) » Archive through May 01, 2009 » On you, at you « Previous Next »

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Heidski
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Username: Heidski

Post Number: 20
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Sunday, April 26, 2009 - 06:12 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

To express possession, items are at you, emotions are on you, as are diseases.. I may have of these confused. I'm fascinated by this way of seeing the world. I' m not sure what discipline this would fall under. Would anyone know an author writing in English who explores these topics. I hope the replies would reveal hjemselves in English, my Ghaeilge is very unimpressive.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 8192
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Monday, April 27, 2009 - 06:07 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

You don't possess emotions, they happen to you!
I think that is the difference between agam/orm.

I don't know of any explorations, though.

German has some similar aspects:
Ich habe Hunger
but
Mir ist kalt

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 2832
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Monday, April 27, 2009 - 06:13 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

But you say "tá gruaig dhonn orm". I learnt that if you say "tá gruaig xyz agam", it means you own hair like that, ie. it's a wig and not your own hair. Same thing with beards etc.

I remember my first Irish teacher who explained that to us:

"When you say "tá féasóg agam", it means that you own a beard, that you keep in your bag and that you put on you so that you aren't recognized by the people you don't like" :-D

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 8194
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Monday, April 27, 2009 - 06:20 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Hair happens to you also! Agus ulcha do roinnt againn!

One speaks of "wearing" hair and a beard also in English and German.

Tá féasóg orm
Tá cuarán orm
Tá geansaí orm
Tá Gaeilge agam!

(Message edited by aonghus on April 27, 2009)

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James_murphy
Member
Username: James_murphy

Post Number: 255
Registered: 11-2005


Posted on Monday, April 27, 2009 - 02:39 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Items are "at you" in Russian too.
I came across this in a fascinating book called "The Unfolding of Language":

U menja kniga
at me book
'the* book (is) at me' (= I have a book)

Also, in Turkish it's similar:

Ben-de bir kitap var
me-on a book is
'a book is on me' (= I have a book)

An example from Irish is given too.

(* I don't know why the author put a definite article here.)

Séamus Ó Murċaḋa

Inis fá réim i gcéin san Iarṫar tá
Dá ngoirid luċt léiġinn Tír Éireann fialṁar cáil

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Lars
Member
Username: Lars

Post Number: 321
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Monday, April 27, 2009 - 02:47 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Not really possession.
Irish idioms only translate as English "have". And only that has a slight notion of possession, perhaps.
Irish only tells you that something is "at you" or "on you". That's all.
To say honestly to "have" something like emotions or diseases, as one does in everyday English, could be very odd in the ears of a foreigner, if one thinks about it. (Can one really "have" or even "possess" fun? Or doesn't fun rather happen to someone? What about a cold? Who wants to "have" it?)

The reason for confusion aren't really Irish idioms as "bheith agat" or "bheith ort", but English's odd usage of "have".
From a neutral point of view, Irish's "rud a bheith ort" ("something to be on you") is much clearer, easier and better :-)

Lars

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Curiousfinn
Member
Username: Curiousfinn

Post Number: 229
Registered: 08-2008
Posted on Monday, April 27, 2009 - 10:30 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I have written a few examples of Finnish phrases for the topic. Most of the Irish translations given here intentionally calque the Finnish word order and sequence of agglutination. Mostly things are "on" people, although there are other ways of saying the the same thing in some cases.

Feelings, sensations, as well as physical, mental, or medical conditions and such, are mostly "on" people.

- Minulla on väsy|nälkä|tauti|syyhy|krapula
Mé-ar tá tuirse|ocras|galar|tochas|póit

Referring to the last one, we don't say "Minulla on juopumus" but "Olen juovuksissa(ni)", roughly: "Táim i (mo) meisciúileas." (Can drunkenness be said like that?)

Items, either owned or possessed, either stored somewhere or carried along, are also "on" people.

- Minulla on auto|ase
Mé-ag tá carr|gunna

- Minulla on oma auto
Mé-ag tá liom-féin carr
("oma" translates to English roughly as "of [poss.pron] own"; as a sveticism some people actually say "[poss.pron] oma")

- Minulla on ase taskussa(ni)
Mé-ag tá gunna poca-i-(mo)

- Ase on (minun) hallussani
An gunna tá (mo) seilbh-i-mo

If you own an item, but you haven't got it with you, or you have lended it to someone, you could say:

- Omistan auton, mutta se ei ole nyt minulla. (Se on veljelläni.)
Is liomsa carr, ach sé ní fhuil anois mé-ag. (Sé tá dearthair-ag-mo.)

Languages and other skills can be said to be in your possession, but without the possessive suffix:

- Minulla on muutama sana iiriä hallussa
Mé-ag tá cúpla focal Gaeilge seilbh-i

Tine, siúil liom!

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Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 8201
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Tuesday, April 28, 2009 - 06:04 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Maidir le meisce, bíonn póit ort an maidin i ndiaidh duit bheith (caochta/ar meisce/ólta).

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Peter
Member
Username: Peter

Post Number: 599
Registered: 01-2006


Posted on Wednesday, April 29, 2009 - 03:55 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

James,

Considering your example:

quote:


U menja kniga
at me book
'the* book (is) at me' (= I have a book)



I get at least two readings, the most natural being "That's me who has had the book". This represents a non-elliptical sentence, meaning that the present tense form "есть" could not be used here. The focus is on the "у меня" (which carries falling intonation), and "книга" could only refer to a specific familiar object. This could be an answer to a question like "Where is the book?"

The second reading is "I myself, I have a book". This requires a contract (like "I have a book, but Mary has a CD"). In this case, the sentence is an elliptical one and derives from "у меня есть книга" (="I have a book").

'Na trí rud is deacra a thoghadh – bean, speal agus rásúr'

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Curiousfinn
Member
Username: Curiousfinn

Post Number: 230
Registered: 08-2008
Posted on Wednesday, April 29, 2009 - 06:26 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Hmm... Tá duine ar meisce, ach tá póit ar duine?

I bhFionlainnis, tá duine "i meisce", agus is féidir go bhfuil "duine i bpóit" nó "póit ar duine".

Níl idirdhealú glan idir "ag" agus "ar" i bhFionlainnis - b'fheidir in abairtí cosúil le "ar|ag obair", ach is riachtanach an comhthéacs san áireamh a chur.

Tine, siúil liom!

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Heidski
Member
Username: Heidski

Post Number: 21
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Thursday, April 30, 2009 - 01:39 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A churiosfinn,

Again, my gaeilge is not entirely up to snuff. Would you run this last post i Bearla?

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Curiousfinn
Member
Username: Curiousfinn

Post Number: 231
Registered: 08-2008
Posted on Thursday, April 30, 2009 - 03:37 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

No problem, fadhb ar bith!

> Hmm... A person would be "on inebriety", but the
> hangover would be "on person"?

> In the Finnish language, a person is "in inebriety"
> but it is possible to say either that the a person would
> be "in hangover" or that the hangover would be
> "on a person".

> There is no clear separation between "ag" and "ar" in
> Finnish (both would be almost invariably translated to
> the "-lla/llä" suffix, "on"), perhaps in sentences of
> the "ag|ar obair" nature, where the context must be
> included.

"Ar obair" I understand to be "at the place of work"
"Ag obair" I understand to be "actually doing the work"

Should I calque "ag|ar obair" directly, that would become "työllä" which word wouldn't make much sense in this context. The same suffix would also have a "with/by" meaning as in "le".

But I'm terribly afraid I have veered a wee bit off the topic.

Tine, siúil liom!



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