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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2009 (May-June) » Archive through May 01, 2009 » Research on attititudes to the language in Ireland published « Previous Next »

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 8172
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Thursday, April 23, 2009 - 08:43 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Summary here:
http://www.pobail.ie/ie/Preaseisiuinti/file,9802,ie.pdf

Still high levels of passive support - bearley changed in 20 years as Conchubhar points out on http://igaeilge.wordpress.com

I was away yesterday, so I haven't looked at it in any detail.

(Message edited by aonghus on April 23, 2009)

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 8173
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Thursday, April 23, 2009 - 08:45 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post


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Seant
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Username: Seant

Post Number: 29
Registered: 02-2009
Posted on Thursday, April 23, 2009 - 09:50 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Table 2.2 is interesting. Most people want Irish maintained in a Gaeltacht themepark and brought out for music and other cultural purposes.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 8175
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Thursday, April 23, 2009 - 10:47 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Cén nuacht atá ansin?

Tá sé sin breá sabháilte, agus ní gá dóibh siúd a mhaíonn go bhfuilid ar son na Gaeilge pioc a dhéanamh iad féin. Nach méanar dóibh!

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Taidhgín
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Username: Taidhgín

Post Number: 272
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Thursday, April 23, 2009 - 02:27 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Buntáiste a bheadh ansin dóibh siúd ar mian leo an Ghaeilge bheo a leathadh chuig contaetha eile: "Gaeltacht Theme Parks nua" a chur ar bun in áiteanna éagsúla ar fud na tíre "for music and cultural purposes". Idir shúgradh agus dáiríre atáim. Bhainfí mí-úsáid as cibé cistiúchán a chuirfí ar fáil is baolach.

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Danny2007
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Username: Danny2007

Post Number: 311
Registered: 12-2007


Posted on Thursday, April 23, 2009 - 10:27 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Interesting. Thanks for providing the links.

What's the difference between 'middling', 'not so fluent' and 'reasonable competence'? Reasonable competence seems to be the least of the three.

Anyway, the 9% for fluent-or-very fluent seems about right, all things considered.

quote:

Most people want Irish maintained in a Gaeltacht themepark and brought out for music and other cultural purposes.



Recently I came across a travel guidebook (2008 version) by a well known American travel writer who described the Gaeltachtaí as 'national parks where the old Irish ways are preserved'.

That irritated me.

When writing your messages, please use the same courtesy that you would show when speaking face-to-face with someone.
- Daltaí.com

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Roibeard_an_tastrálach
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Username: Roibeard_an_tastrálach

Post Number: 12
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Friday, April 24, 2009 - 04:31 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

...in the year 2006, a total of 11,871 pupils were exempted from learning Irish to the level of Learning Certificate on the basis of certificates of learning inability... Nevertheless, over half of the exempted, numbering 6,341, were immediately able to overcome their inability to the extent that they were able to go on and study one or more continental languages... Apparently, a new but not at all rare form of mental handicap has been discoverd by the professional consultants - a language learning inability which applies only to one langauge - Irish!



I find *this* to be an irritating statistic. As a teacher with considerable compassion for students with learning issues, I find this to be an insult to the whole concept of student support. These exemptions cannot have gone through without the willing participation of support staff. A statistic like this either suggests that this part of the Education Department has an irrational dislike for the Irish language, or that the staff in question are distressingly weak-willed in the face of parents and students 'working the system'. I'm not sure which is worse...

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 8177
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Friday, April 24, 2009 - 06:07 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

The issue is that it is *schools* who give the exemption, under guidelines from the Department. There are apparently psychologists who are willing to assist the process.

The Department is moving in its usual oil tanker fashion to address the issue.

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Roibeard_an_tastrálach
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Username: Roibeard_an_tastrálach

Post Number: 13
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Friday, April 24, 2009 - 06:27 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Sounds more like my second suggestion then, with school staff caving in to pressure (for a variety of potential reasons and motivations, I suppose). Ugh.

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Acco
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Username: Acco

Post Number: 1
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Friday, April 24, 2009 - 07:02 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

If you're really interested in "reviving" the language it's important to concentrate on the hardest take on the facts presented. We all know these kinds of surveys and when you strip away the tinsly, polite, aspirational, feelgood elements - the kind of stuff that gives the pols a pleasant fuzzy - you are left with about 10% of the Galltacht population who have functional Irish of some usable form.

That's not bad, in fact, it's quite a good basis to work off - I'm not being negative, mind you. But the unprettified fact is: the basis has to be a real one - if you are REALLY serious about working off it - and not a nice-to-imagine-it's-like-that (but-it's-really-not) kind of one.

Say goodbye to trying to teach Irish to everyone. Teach the majority a pleasant smattering of an easy-going Buntús Cainte sort of thing and tie it in with cultural / celtic studies. That way you keep the majority sweet on Irish.

What this terminally ill patient (we're all mature enough to be told by Old Doc Lingo that your venerable old Daideo, the same Grand-Fada Gaeilge, is on his last legs and won't last another two generations without a revitalized natural heart and a new artificial one, aren't we now, children) - I repeat - what this terminally ill patient needs is the Gaeilge Marines!

Pick out the high achievers with an instinctive attraction, enthusiasm, love - you name it - towards poor old Sean-Pops and give them all the best teachers (lingo-wise, motivo-wise and phono-wise - even get some of those pretty Gaeltacht cailíní into the classroom, it if would work) etc, etc.

But do all that ONLY if you are serious about keeping Grand-Fada Gaeilge around for a bit of posterity. OTHERWISE, just keep on going the way you are.

And my next message will be as Gaeilge - even if it takes me a week to write it.

And remember folks: Commandment Nr. 4 - Honour thy Grand-Fada and etc.

Now how would you put that aithne in Irish?

(By the way, in case you were wondering: de mudder's Eyrrish - go n-éiri an todhchaí libh!)

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Acco
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Username: Acco

Post Number: 2
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Friday, April 24, 2009 - 07:09 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:...in the year 2006, a total of 11,871 pupils were exempted from learning Irish to the level of Learning Certificate on the basis of certificates of learning inability... Nevertheless, over half of the exempted, numbering 6,341, were immediately able to overcome their inability to the extent that they were able to go on and study one or more continental languages... Apparently, a new but not at all rare form of mental handicap has been discoverd by the professional consultants - a language learning inability which applies only to one langauge - Irish!


I find *this* to be an irritating statistic. As a teacher with considerable compassion for students with learning issues, I find this to be an insult to the whole concept of student support. These exemptions cannot have gone through without the willing participation of support staff. A statistic like this either suggests that this part of the Education Department has an irrational dislike for the Irish language, or that the staff in question are distressingly weak-willed in the face of parents and students 'working the system'. I'm not sure which is worse...

(Sorry, I don't know how to quote.)

I agree with you, Robbie. What an egregious dereliction of ones duties as a TEACHER (the work "teach" is actually in there somwhere, isn't it?)!

And imagine some of these teachers were the ones to pump up the moralistic ante on poor old Battie recently.

There are very good teachers too, I hasten to add - let's say, the majority.

(Message edited by acco on April 24, 2009)

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Seant
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Username: Seant

Post Number: 30
Registered: 02-2009
Posted on Friday, April 24, 2009 - 08:19 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I had a flash of inspiration. Gaelscoileanna should be boarding schools - so the children get an all-Irish environment all the time!

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 8180
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Friday, April 24, 2009 - 09:03 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

It is not teachers who make the decision on exemptions, but school administrators, based on assessments by health professionals.

An education is only the start of the story. If Irish has no clear role in society, then why learn it?

Why is the 10% of the Galltacht population with Irish not reflected in the media? Why is 10% of RTÉ programming not in Irish? Why is there next to no Irish in the commercial sector? Why is it only the Irish Times that has irish columns (and some regional papers). Why....

At least the internet allows Irish speakers to start to fill this niche:

http://www.nosmag.com
http://andrumamornuacht.blogspot.com

agus mar sin de

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Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 8181
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Friday, April 24, 2009 - 09:14 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Maidir leis an cead gan gaeilge a fhoghlaim:
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/education/the-irish-education-syste m/exemption_from_irish

quote:

The application for exemption is made by the parent or guardian to the school principal. The application should state the reasons why the exemption is being sought.

The parent/guardian must attach documentary evidence of the student's age, and previous schooling if it is relevant to the reason for the exemption being sought.

The school authorities then prepare a full report on the student.

Where the exemption is sought on the grounds of a disability, the parent or guardian must supply reports from a qualified psychologist or from an appropriate medical specialist.


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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 8182
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Friday, April 24, 2009 - 09:14 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post


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Roibeard_an_tastrálach
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Username: Roibeard_an_tastrálach

Post Number: 14
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Friday, April 24, 2009 - 10:33 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

GRMA, a Aonghus, that all sounds familiar enough to me. I teach in Australia, and whilst we tend to use the term 'student support' or 'student services' staff for those who work with students with learning needs, their work is in part directed by the advice of health professionals such as psychologists.

I referred to school-based staff making these decisions on exemptions (you'll notice I didn't mention 'teachers') only because in Australia these specialists, including psychologists, are often part of the school staff (aka 'non-teaching staff'). Our administrators tend not to take risks on matters they are not qualified to judge upon, and so rely on these people quite heavily.

I have friends who teach in Ireland, though, so I should know better than to think that everything works in the same way!

quote:

An education is only the start of the story. If Irish has no clear role in society, then why learn it? Why is the 10% of the Galltacht population with Irish not reflected in the media? Why is 10% of RTÉ programming not in Irish? Why is there next to no Irish in the commercial sector? Why is it only the Irish Times that has irish columns (and some regional papers). Why....



Good questions - but those things would hint at the presence of an emerging or existing bilingual society, and the report suggests that many people in Ireland do not see the Irish language as 'the basis of a common identity' (in other words, that Irish has a central place in Irish society). And unfortunately, governments and other key groups avoid radical societal change unless they're given a strong motivation to do so: most commonly, a financial incentive, or in the political sphere, change encouraged by a mandate from the people. I would be very surprised, then, if a new drive towards a true bilingual society in Ireland occured without a renewed national debate on the question, perhaps in the wake of an election.

Other members of the forum would be much more knowledgable than me as to whether this is a realistic prospect.

I'm not on here all too often, so it's also possible that you've debated this very topic to death... ;)

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 8183
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Friday, April 24, 2009 - 10:43 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I was responding to Acco on the teachers, Roibéard.

And my questions were - mostly - rhetorical.

The question has been debated frequently and usually inconclusively here. I see governemnt as having a supporting role, and I don't see a broadly based, root and branch debate happening any time soon in Ireland, despite this research and even in spite of http://www.plean2028.ie

But I think the Fabian approach (by Minister Éamon Ó Cuív) will eventually pay off. Especially since technology is empowering small groups to connect globally and produce content in Irish, and is making it easier for government and other services to serve the Irish speaking citizen (or visitor!).

(Message edited by aonghus on April 24, 2009)

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Antaine
Member
Username: Antaine

Post Number: 1393
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Friday, April 24, 2009 - 11:32 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

we do a similar thing in the US with "classified" students...the parents' desire is the #1 factor in getting a classification...they just shop around until they find a "professional" who will sign off on whatever they want.

and it is abused...BIGTIME



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