While looking through a vocabulary in a reprint of "Bolg an tSoláir" (1795) today I came across the word "Aonfhlaitheas" for "Monarchy".
I later discovered, to my dismay, that this succinct and entirely Irish term is not to be found in either O'Dónaill's or De Bháldraithe's dictionaries.
This started me thinking.
Has anyone else noticed how filled modern Irish dictionaries seem to be with Irish transliterations of the Latin (and Greek) based technical vocabulary of English?

Those in charge of coming up with new terminology for Irish seem dead set on having a word for word translation of every one of these English terms.
Now, if Irish lacks a way of expressing a concept and a suitable term can't be created from existing elements in the language they should by all means feel free to import a fitting word from Latin or Greek (straight from the source, not via English) but - while there are some fine examples of use being made of existing Irish elements - this is usually not the case.

I believe the motive behind this is that old problem: English brain - Irish tongue (or pen/keyboard).
Irish works on technical, complex or abstract matters tend to be nothing more than translations of English originals whether pre-existing texts or the author's own English thoughts and the plethora of Latin>English>Irish transliterations are there for no other reason than to accommodate this unfortunate fact about a lot of writing in Irish today.
How can it possibly bode well for the future of our language if it's no longer a medium of thought or composition?
If it's nothing more than a sort of code into which English thoughts are put?
And any difficulty in expressing English concepts in Irish results in the re-development of the language to facilitate it more easily?

As the Plútacratachas/Maoinfhlaitheas issue I brought up before shows for the most part Irish is more than capable of providing terms for these concepts but its huge potential is being ignored.
Also what may be expressed by one word in English may be expressed, just as effectively, by a short phrase in Irish (as in French and other languages) but this is more difficult for the 'translators'. They want nice, neat, single units to exactly correspond to every English word.


What do others here think? Do I have a point or am I completely wrong?



P.S. I hope the fact that I'm neither a fluent speaker nor a linguist won't lead to my opinions being contemptuously dismissed.

Tá fiúntas le do thuairim go deimhin. An feall is mó ná nach bhfuil foclóir chuimsitheach againn (Gaeilge-Gaeilge), agus freisin nach bhfuil bonn cheart faoin gCoiste Téarmaíochta. Ag snámh in aghaidh easa atá an beagán duine atá acu.

Agus tá an dúrud aistritheoirí laga ann - ach is fíor freisin gur beag eagras atá sásta íoc mar is ceart as dea Ghaeilge a chuir ar cháipéisí.

Má íocann tú peanuts....

Ach tá daoine ann atá ag smaoineamh go domhain sa Ghaeilge; agus freisin ag amharc ar theangacha seachas an Bhéarla.

Tráthúil go leor, táim díreach tar éis mír a scríobh ar mo bhlag faoi dhuine acu.

You made a fair point, a Shéamuis.

I am wondering whether the word you mentioned is used but just accidently missed off dictionaries, or genuinely obsolete?

But you could also look at it in reverse. Irish has developed naturally, and that has included borrowings from English and occasionally words have been brought in to drop the word that has naturally evolved. I am thinking of how Parlaimeint/Parliaméid was a word taken into Irish and used naturally in the 19th century, but in 1922 they decided to call the Irish Parliament Dáil Éireann, which is annotated "recent" in Dinneen's dictionary.

Would "reintroducing" a word like aonfhlaitheas be accused of artificially gaeilicizing a language that has naturally developed in a certain way?

Flaith is a Prince. Flaitheas a territory under the control of a Prince (as well as many other meanings). Aonfhlaitheas? One-princedom? I am not so sure it was a good word even then.

People make a language. When they speak or write they create new sentences. If there are only very few people using a language those who don't use it can't complain about the standard of Irish being used. If there were thousands, millions, using Irish every day it would develop to cope with modern life.

Unfortunately there aren't and those who try to use the language need the help of www.focal.ie and so on. Those who have been immersed in traditional spoken Irish know when to avoid using the dictionary too much.

Thankfully customers commissioning translations who know a little Irish do not insist on literal word for word translations nowadays. They know better or else they don't care. Thanks to the Internet however and the publication of such translations online errors are quickly spotted and easily corrected.

Not all translators are "aistritheoirí laga". There is incredible pioneering work going on where scientific texts are being well-translated for the first time ever in the language. These translators get no special recognition for bringing the language into realms where it was never used before. Not only must they know both traditional and modern Irish but they also must know the original language extraordinarily well. They must also have a deep understanding of the various topics.

Translators to French, German, Spanish, etc have comprehensive dictionaries and commonly "used" phrases to guide them. Those languages are constantly used by millions of people. They translate into their mother-tongue. Translation into those langauges is much easier for such translators than translation to Irish.

We should be thankful there are translators able and willing to work in Irish and treat any corrections that need to be made to their work with great sensitivity. The small number of translators who have been awarded the Séala reveals that there are not many such translators available. Even the online fora / forums such as Daltaí have very few contributors who can write in Irish. We are all learners. Most of us anyway. Me especially.

Translation to Irish is a new profession in Ireland and needs careful cultivation and support. Let's not quench the flickering flame before it gets a chance to burn brightly. Much excellent work is being done and it will bear fruit in school texts, writing, general discourse and broadcasting.

Seeking to confine the language to medieval coinages would not be a good idea. Even today when a perfectly good word associated with traditional life exists speakers in the Gaeltacht will indicate that it is modern affluent international life they have in mind by using the English word. If Irish lives they will all be assimilated into the regularly used vocabulary of those who use the language. Irish will have moved on. New people will use it when I and my generation have passed on. Good luck to them.

I am reading "The Power of Babel" by John McWhorter at the moment which is written for the layman and it gives an account of how languages tranform over time and interact with other languages. It has helped to ease my mind, if I may put it that way, regarding certain excessive anxieties I might have had concerning "over-alienation" etc.

According to McWhorter the loss of words in single instances is not something to get too worried about; although I must admit that replacing of "aonfhlaitheas" by "monarcacht" must have brought with it a palpable loss of transparency because "aonfhlaitheas" contains within itself the definition in Irish of the word: "rule by one prince" can be readily extracted from it, I would contend.

McWhorter states that the English vocabulary is made up to a degree of 99% of non-English words. Of course, we are familiar with most of them by now(!), but it is almost impossible without a good knowledge of Greek & Latin to divine the more fancy ones commonly used as "intellectual" shibboleths by some journalists in the quality broadsheets.

I find that focal.ie are doing a good job and are trying at least to keep the neologisms transparent from an internal Irish point of view. Remember that in the last years the major languages have been importing English neologisms more and more in undigested chunks. In German the word for idirlíon is Internet, and I could give you a long list of the same.

Agus faoi mar a scríobh Aonghus:
An feall is mó ná nach bhfuil foclóir chuimsitheach againn (Gaeilge-Gaeilge), agus freisin nach bhfuil bonn cheart faoin gCoiste Téarmaíochta.

During the Celtic Tiger hundreds of millions were squandered by one department alone on computer systems; a fraction of this money would have funded a Gaeilge-Gaeilge dictionary.

(Message edited by ormondo on April 18, 2009)

Translators to French, German, Spanish, etc have comprehensive dictionaries and commonly "used" phrases to guide them. Those languages are constantly used by millions of people. They translate into their mother-tongue. Translation into those languages is much easier for such translators than translation to Irish.

And it's not all plain sailing for translators to French, German and Spanish either. Just look at some of the discussions on Leo.org.

The balance has to be struck, I suppose, between encouragement on the one hand and quality-control on the other.

By the way, I read an interesting book last year on translation: "Cuir Gaeilge Air" by Antain Mac Lochlainn.

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An feall is mó ná nach bhfuil foclóir chuimsitheach againn (Gaeilge-Gaeilge),

Is eagal liom nach réidhteochadh sé sin an fhadhb - bheadh an saghas focal atá i gceist agam ann fá mar a tá siad sna foclóirí dá-theangacha.

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agus freisin nach bhfuil bonn cheart faoin gCoiste Téarmaíochta.

An gceapann siad na téarmaí seo go léir nó an é nach ndéanann siad ach na focail a cheapann ughdair agus aistrightheoirí a thuairisciughadh?

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Would "reintroducing" a word like aonfhlaitheas be accused of artificially gaeilicizing a language that has naturally developed in a certain way?

There's nothing natural about the vast majority, if not all, of these terms.
They haven't come into the language "naturally" through the attempts of native speakers, thinking in Irish, to express themselves.
They are, it would seem, simply introduced to provide Irish equivalents to English terminology.

Ultimately theres always some deliberate decision about how the lack of a way to express a concept in a language is solved.
I can't see how "re-introducing" a word like "Aonfhlaitheas" could possibly be regarded as artificial or unauthentic as simply taking an English word and slotting it into the language.

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Flaith is a Prince. Flaitheas a territory under the control of a Prince (as well as many other meanings). Aonfhlaitheas? One-princedom? I am not so sure it was a good word even then.

"as well as many other meanings" - including "sovreignty".
It's very easy to break a compound word into its original componants and make it appear odd. "Monarchy" means "alone rule".
But the beauty of both Greek and Irish is that differents words, prefixes and suffixes can be put together in almost endless combinations to form completely new terms with meanings quite different from the original building-blocks that make them up. "More than the sum of their parts" :)

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Seeking to confine the language to medieval coinages would not be a good idea.

My point has nothing to do with this. It's all about coining new terms for whatever the world throws at Irish. Im simply concerned about how it's usually being done at present. I'm deeply confident in and enthusiastic about the ability of Irish to cope and provide it's users with the terminology they require and where it can't by all means take in a foreign word to fill the need (as I wrote above).

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Even today when a perfectly good word associated with traditional life exists speakers in the Gaeltacht will indicate that it is modern affluent international life they have in mind by using the English word.

So it's perfectly fine that English equals "modern affluent international life" to Irish speakers while, presumably, Irish life must be "old-fashioned", "impoverished" and "parochial"???

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although I must admit that replacing of "aonfhlaitheas" by "monarcacht" must have brought with it a palpable loss of transparency because "aonfhlaitheas" contains within itself the definition in Irish of the word: rule by one person.

Exactly. Another excellent point I forgot to mention. The meanings of words made up of native elements are clear to all.

Another thing.

There is no use of aonfhlaitheas shown in DIL. Or Dinneen's. Or on the Internet.

It could be that the word was artificially made up in 1795 in order precisely to correspond to the English term monarchy, and never used since.

I am thinking of how words like dialann entered the language. The 17th and 18th centuries were periods when new words were being coined.

All I am saying is that it would be interesting to see what other examples of this word there are. Was it really in use other than in one text in 1795? Was it a neologism in that text? They would be interesting questions to answer, although I cannot answer them.

I agree -- that more use needs to be made of the existing native stock of words including prefixes and suffixes. I remember as a child learning céimseata through Irish realising that triantán comhchosach was instantly understandable while an isosceles triangle meant nothing. One up for Irish I thought.

The problem with Irish is we are all only ar an táirsigh -- on the threshold -- of learning the language. We need to read, read, read, the literature both modern and classical. We need to get good annotated texts of the material that is still only available in manuscript. We need to listen to Máirtín Team Sheáinín in preference to you know who.

It is not easy. We live in the real world and life is short. Each of us can only do a little. It would help if we devoted a bit more attention to Alan Titley's essays in The Irish Times and Pádraig Ó Cíobháin's books. The man has written about six or seven books and hardly anyone on this list could name one of them. How many copies of FOINSE are sold. Why am I writing in English now instead of Irish?

I meant to say that there is nothning stopping those who know the power of the suffix and prefix and native root from creating a literary idiom that will appeal to all and sundry and make a name for themselves. All that is required is the energy and discipline to write and publish.

AnCO and Focal dot IE and Ó Dónaill and de Bhaldraithe are all directed at the official use of Irish. The language you use on the pillow or in the confessional is outside the control of an Coiste Téarmaíochta. You are free to say what you like. Even here on Daltaí I see some extraordinary representations of canúintí that might well astonish some of the native speakers represented.

If the population chose to use their own forms of Irish there would be nothing to stop them. Whether caighdeán, canúint, traditional, classical, or lofa le botúin, the main thing is to use the language. "Ceart nó cearr bí ag bruidhean" said an old man to me in the Isle of Harris / Na Hearadh in the Hebrides / Inse Gall long ago. It's a good motto: Right or wrong keep talking.

how large do you want the dictionry to be?

aon - one word
etc etc etc

do you want all possible combinations of compund words and hyphenated words - even if they have gone out of use?

also - it was a newspaper - ie that could have essentialy been the authors invention of the word

quite easy to do in irish - a good part of its vocab is made this way

quote:

It could be that the word was artificially made up in 1795 in order precisely to correspond to the English term monarchy, and never used since.

1) I don't think it was. Patrick Lynch who wrote the Irish vocabularies and grammar for "Bolg an tSoláir" was a native speaker in touch with the literary tradition still alive in the north east at the time.

2) If he did coin it he did a good job :) An fine example of how it can be done.

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AnCO and Focal dot IE and Ó Dónaill and de Bhaldraithe are all directed at the official use of Irish. The language you use on the pillow or in the confessional is outside the control of an Coiste Téarmaíochta.

The problem is An Coiste Téarmaíochta, the compilers etc are those with the most influence on the development of the language in general.
I firmly believe Irish can be a very effective means of communication for officialdom, academia etc without simply shadowing English.

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how large do you want the dictionry to be?....do you want all possible combinations of compund words and hyphenated words

Of course not. As I said before part of the richness of Irish is the almost unlimited number of compound words that can be made.

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- even if they have gone out of use?

So if a word isn't daily on the lips of Gaedhealtacht speakers it's dead and gone forever?
I've never understood the mindset that sees the re-introduction of perfectly useful Irish words (which very often fell out of use because of our country's unfortunate history and the consequent neglect and stifling of the development of Irish) as some awful crime while shovelling half the vocabulary of English into the language is perfectly acceptable and the most natural thing in the world.

Tá deacracht ann. Tá deighilteacha ann idir pobail na Gaeilge - go hairithe idir iad siúd atá ag plé go gairmiúil - go hacadúil nó san státseirbhís - léi agus teanga bheo pobal na Gaeltachta. Níl teacht ag pobal na Gaeltachta ar shaothar acadúil agus gairmiúil. Agus is mó tionchar an bhéarla ar a gcaint dá réir.

Maidir leis an méid a dúirt mé faoin gCoiste thuas, is fíor gur ar éileamh agus de bharr moltaí a ghníomhaíonn siad. Ach feictear dom nach bhfuil an réimse saineolas sách leathan acu, agus go nglactar dá réir le moltaí nár cheart glacadh leo.

Tá cinnte scoth na haistritheoirí ann (leabhar bhreá an ceann sin ag Mac Lochlainn), ach tá freisin an t-uafás ábhar ar dhroch chaighdeán.

Is maith ann an seala, agus le cúnamh Dé beidh feabhas de réir a chéile.

(Message edited by aonghus on April 19, 2009)

Agus creidim go bhfuil gá le foclóir Gaeilge Gaeilge toisc gurbh fearr a léiríonn a leithéid an réimse teanga atá ann, agus an téarma cuí, seachas focal Gaeilge a thabhairt ar fhocal Bhéarla.

Is mór an chabhair an Foclóir Beag, abair.

quote:

Tá deacracht ann. Tá deighilteacha ann idir pobail na Gaeilge - go hairithe idir iad siúd atá ag plé go gairmiúil - go hacadúil nó san státseirbhís - léi agus teanga bheo pobal na Gaeltachta. Níl teacht ag pobal na Gaeltachta ar shaothar acadúil agus gairmiúil. Agus is mó tionchar an bhéarla ar a gcaint dá réir.

Ba chóir dhóibh bheith ag tabhairt fé'n staid dhíoghbhálach seo ach ina ionad sin tá eagla orm go bhfuilid á daingniughadh trí téarmaí den tsaghas atá i gceist agam a chur sa teangain. Ag géilleadh agus "ag réidhtiughadh an bóthair" don chlaonadh so.

P.S. Ba shuimeamhail liom do bhlag.

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Ba shuimeamhail liom do bhlag

GRMA.

Cá bhfaigheadh Pobail na Gaeltachtaí téarmaí ar bith? Níl téarmaí an Choiste acu, níl teacht acu orthu.

Is ó nuachtáin 7 rl a faightear téarmaíocht nua. Níl ach dornán daoine ag léamh Foinse (agus Lá nuair ab ann dó).

Is beag atá á léamh ag aoinne.

Tá an scéal sách casta, ach tá idir tuair dóchais agus díomá ann.

Ni bheidh an Ghaeilge in ann seasamh arís go neamhspleách ar a bhonn féin go dtí go mbeidh sí ina fráma tagartha di féin faoi mar a bhí an scéal roimh Imeacht na nIarlaí.

Ceann de na fabhbanna a bheadh le sárú ná gur ar éigin a cheapann lucht na Gaeilge féin i ndáiríre gur féidir saol iomlán ar bith a reáchtáil gan an Béarla a bheith ina bhall lárnach ann agus nach féidir déanamh dá uireasa. Os rud é go bhfuil saol na Gaeilge fréamhaithe go domhain sa chóras béarlach - agus báite istigh ann nach mór - leis na céadta anuas, bíonn amhras ar an té is dúthrachtaí féin, déarfainn, nach bhfuil i ndán don teanga i ndeireadh dála ach í a bheith mar chaitheamh aimsire de shórt ar imeall an tsaoil (cé nach bhfuileamar i gcoinne an Bhéarla, go bhfóire Dia orainn).

Ach séard a fhaightear amach nuair a chaitear tréimhse lántumaithe i dteanga eile cé is moite den Bhéarla ná gur a mhalairt ar fad atá an scéal. Tá saol ann lasmuigh den Bhéarla nach gcreideann gurb éigean dó a thaca a ligean (go leisciúil?!) leis an mBéarla.

Dá bharr sin ba chóir a bheith ag plé leis an nGaeilge trí mheán na Gaeilge agus ní féidir é sin a dhéanamh go hiomlán gan fhoclóir Gaeilge-Gaeilge, mar shampla. Agus ba chóir leanúint ar aghaidh leis na nuafhocail a chur le céile agus a chumadh le míreanna gaelacha ionas go mbeidís sothuigthe - trédhearcach, mar a déarfá - d'intinn gaelach.

Tá cinnte scoth na haistritheoirí ann (leabhar bhreá an ceann sin ag Mac Lochlainn)...

An bhféadfaí moltaí a thabhairt ar mhaithe le liosta leabhar dea-scríofa (de gach shórt) a chur le céile, b'fhéidir?

Tá an ceart ag James i gcásanna áirithe. Is minic gur féidir aistriúchán deas Gaeilge ar fhocal Béarla a aimsiú trí cheann eile de na mórtheangacha a cheadú. Ag smaoineamh ar an bhfocal uafásach sin "faics" atáim. Ba mhaith liom é a dhíbirt ón teanga. Sa bhFraincis tá telecopie acu (nílim cinnte den litriú) focal a thabharfadh teileachóip dúinne agus t-chóip mar ghiorrúchán.

Is mian le lucht eolaíochta na Gaeilge go mbeadh "téarmaí" so-aitheanta ó theanga go teanga agus tugann de Bhaldraithe liosta fada focal a bhí in úsáid mar théarma don teileascóp, ciandearcán srl. Glacaim leis sin ach ba chóir go nglacfaí le focail dúchasacha chomh maith ar nós geilleagar don eacnamaíocht.

quote:

Is ó nuachtáin 7 rl a faightear téarmaíocht nua.

Agus cá bhfaigheann na nuaidheachtáin 7rl an téarmaidheacht nuair atáid ag cumadh a bhfuil ionntu? Ó na liostái téarmaidheachta a cheap an Coiste Téarmaíochta agus ó shuidhimh mar "focal.ie"*. Leathnuigheann a gcruthuightear acu go mear toisc é a bheith níos usa d'intinní an Bhéarla a láimhseáil - go minic de rogha ar [in preference to] fhocail agus cora cainnte fhíorGhaedhilge (mar a chuireas síos air thuas).

(*Arís, nílim á rádh go bhfuil 100% dá gceaptar go dona, ar ndóigh.)

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Is beag atá á léamh ag aoinne.

B'fhéidir go bhfuil sé soiléir do Ghaedhilgeoirí dúthchasacha ag léigheamh rudaí áirithe gur bunuigheadh an téacs ar Bhéarla agus daingnigheann sin an dearcadh gurb é an Béarla an teanga lárnach sa domhan?
Dá mb'fhíor sin nach mbeadh sé chomh maith acu pléidhe le rudaí a bhaineann leis an saoghal mór lasmuigh den Ghaedhealtacht trí "phríomh-theanga an domhain"?
Creidim gur mhór an leas don Ghaedhilg agus d'fhéinmhuinín na nGaedheal dá dtaispeáintí dhóibh gur féidir gach adhbhar, dá andúthchasacht é nó dá chastacht é [however exotic or complicated], a láimhseáil trí shárGhaedhilg gan gábhadh ar bith le "cabhair" ó Bhéarla.

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Ceann de na fabhbanna a bheadh le sárú ná gur ar éigin a cheapann lucht na Gaeilge féin i ndáiríre gur féidir saol iomlán ar bith a reáchtáil gan an Béarla a bheith ina bhall lárnach ann agus nach féidir déanamh dá uireasa. Os rud é go bhfuil saol na Gaeilge fréamhaithe go domhain sa chóras béarlach - agus báite istigh ann nach mór - leis na céadta anuas, bíonn amhras ar an té is dúthrachtaí féin, déarfainn, nach bhfuil i ndán don teanga i ndeireadh dála ach í a bheith mar chaitheamh aimsire de shórt ar imeall an tsaoil (cé nach bhfuileamar i gcoinne an Bhéarla, go bhfóire Dia orainn).

Abair é!

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Sa bhFraincis tá telecopie acu (nílim cinnte den litriú) focal a thabharfadh teileachóip dúinne agus t-chóip mar ghiorrúchán.

"Cianchóip" b'fhéidir? Nó "ciansamhail"? Cén fáth go bhfuil an réimmír "Teilea-" sa Ghaedhilg ar chor ar bith agus "Cian-" againn?

Foilsíodh litir i bhFoinse cúpla seachtain ó shin ar an ábhar seo. Thug an scríbhneoir roinnt mhaith samplaí le Gaeilge ró-casta agus le frásaí aistrithe go díreach as frásaí reatha leisciúil as Bearla. Chuardaigh mé ar foinse.ie ach níl na litreacha le fháil ansin. An bhfaca aon duine eile é?

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An bhféadfaí moltaí a thabhairt ar mhaithe le liosta leabhar dea-scríofa (de gach shórt) a chur le céile, b'fhéidir?

Leigh mo bhlag! Luaim leabhair a thaithin liom ansin. (Úrscéalta don chuid is mó, más leabhar "cúiseach" atá i gceist, luaim anseo é).

Léifidh mé é!