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Mikel F. (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Sunday, April 12, 2009 - 09:39 am: |
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Is there a book about linguistic history of irish? I have books about Old Irish and others about irish dialects, but no a list of changes and phonetic rules or chronology. My english is very bad and sad, I know, sorry. |
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Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 2800 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Sunday, April 12, 2009 - 11:21 am: |
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About the phonetic changes in history, you'll find stuff in the DIAS books: The Irish of West Muskerry, The Irish of Tourmakeady, The Irish of Cois Fhairrge, etc. They give Classical Irish forms and the way they are pronounced in the dialect. You'll find stuff in 'Stair na Gaeilge' too... if you can read Irish. There is stuff in 'Irish dialects Past and Present' by O'Rahilly. There are things in 'Modern Irish' by Ó Siadhail too. Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/
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Mikel F. (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Sunday, April 12, 2009 - 03:02 pm: |
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Thanks you, Lughaid I'd like learning irish but my level is 0. Now, I have 3 books (the first Tech yourself of Mylos Dillon, Learning irish of Ó Siadhail and Buntús cainte) with original audio but I doubt what is the better for starting. I'm waiting for “The Irish of West Muskerry” and “The Irish of Cois Fhairrge” (I bought in Deas and Amazon) and I have O'Rahily and Modern Irish' by Ó Siadhail. In Ó Siadhail I see a lot of rules and differences between dialects but no history. I'm look for a book like O'Rahilly but more recent (1932 is very old), more big and with tables, graphics, maps. For example, O'Rahilly say “In the combinations CN, GN, TN, Northern Irish ha substitued a nasalized R for N, while Souther Irish retains the N. In the Aran Islands, ..., usage is mixed, N and R being used indifferently. Scotish Gaelic, like Irish, retains the N in writinng; but in Scotish espeech it is always pronunced as R. Manx knows only R” But this change is the same in 3 languages or it is a parallel change ? This change may be a influence of others english? The geographic distribution is the same of others changes? I see that Munster has a declination more conservative than Galway. Is possible to know in what century is loss the dative or the genitive plural in each dialect? Thanks and sorry for my arapahoe english (honestly "catalan english"). |
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Danny2007
Member Username: Danny2007
Post Number: 308 Registered: 12-2007
| Posted on Monday, April 13, 2009 - 11:32 pm: |
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Yes, consider 'Irish Dialects and Irish-Speaking Districts' by Brian Ó Cuív from 1949. That's from DIAS (Dublin Institute of Advanced Studies). He specialises in the Irish of Cork, especially Múscraí. A chapter is also devoted to the state of Irish based on the census returns of 1851. Fascinating stuff, imo. When writing your messages, please use the same courtesy that you would show when speaking face-to-face with someone. - Daltaí.com
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Seant
Member Username: Seant
Post Number: 18 Registered: 02-2009
| Posted on Tuesday, April 14, 2009 - 03:55 am: |
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John Donovan's 1845 grammar (a famous book) says that back then dative plurals were rare. With nouns such as fir, fearaibh was commonly found but he says it would sound very strange to use words such as capallaibh. So the loss of the dative plural except for certain expressions and a handful of common nouns dates back at least one and a half centuries if not more. |
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Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg
Member Username: Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg
Post Number: 506 Registered: 04-2008
| Posted on Tuesday, April 14, 2009 - 08:34 am: |
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Hola, Mikel, què hi ha? D'on ets i per què vols començar a aprendre irlandès? |
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Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 2805 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Tuesday, April 14, 2009 - 07:42 pm: |
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quote:In Ó Siadhail I see a lot of rules and differences between dialects but no history. There are underlying historical forms to explain the evolution till the current dialectal pronunciations. quote:I'm look for a book like O'Rahilly but more recent (1932 is very old), more big and with tables, graphics, maps. I don't know any book like that. But as far as I know, the most up-to-date book about that stuff is Stair na Gaeilge (but it's in Irish...) quote:For example, O'Rahilly say “In the combinations CN, GN, TN, Northern Irish ha substitued a nasalized R for N, while Souther Irish retains the N. In the Aran Islands, ..., usage is mixed, N and R being used indifferently. Scotish Gaelic, like Irish, retains the N in writinng; but in Scotish espeech it is always pronunced as R. no there is at least one dialect that has retained n there (in Lewis, if i remember well) :-) quote:But this change is the same in 3 languages or it is a parallel change ? This change may be a influence of others english? It may be a parallel change (that evolution is found in some dialects of Breton, and it is not related because these languages are too different), or something that happened long ago. According to Stair na Gaeilge (p.471) : you find the first written evidence of cn > cr in the 16th century but this evolution is probably older. quote:I see that Munster has a declination more conservative than Galway. Is possible to know in what century is loss the dative or the genitive plural in each dialect? The genitive plural still exists ! For the dative, according to Stair na Gaeilge (p.450), the dative and the nominative began to merge around the beginning of the 17th century. Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/
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Seant
Member Username: Seant
Post Number: 21 Registered: 02-2009
| Posted on Tuesday, April 14, 2009 - 08:09 pm: |
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I dug out the 1845 quote from Donovan's Grammar. p84 quotes Patrick Lynch as saying "a man would be laughed at in the country, were he to say, tabhair feur do na caiplibh, or do capalluibh, give hay to the horses; instead of tabhair feur do na capuil. However, fear, a man, and a few other monosyllabic words, are an exception to the above, as we say, na fearaibh, os na fearaibh, do na fearaibh," etc. |
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(Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Tuesday, April 14, 2009 - 11:11 am: |
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Hola Domhnaillín És agradable troba algú que sap català en aquest forum. Soc de Barcelona i m'interessen tots els idiomes, però posats a escollir, l'irlandès em sembla dels més atractius. Com és que tú has estudiat un idioma tan petit com el català? De fet, soc també un col.leccionista de gramátiques, diccionaris y materials en tots els idiomes que puc aconseguir. |
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