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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2009 (March- April) » Archive through April 16, 2009 » History of Irish language and dialects « Previous Next »

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Mikel F. (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Sunday, April 12, 2009 - 09:39 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Is there a book about linguistic history of irish?

I have books about Old Irish and others about irish dialects, but no a list of changes and phonetic rules or chronology.

My english is very bad and sad, I know, sorry.

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 2800
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Sunday, April 12, 2009 - 11:21 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

About the phonetic changes in history, you'll find stuff in the DIAS books: The Irish of West Muskerry, The Irish of Tourmakeady, The Irish of Cois Fhairrge, etc.
They give Classical Irish forms and the way they are pronounced in the dialect.

You'll find stuff in 'Stair na Gaeilge' too... if you can read Irish. There is stuff in 'Irish dialects Past and Present' by O'Rahilly.
There are things in 'Modern Irish' by Ó Siadhail too.

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Mikel F. (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Sunday, April 12, 2009 - 03:02 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Thanks you, Lughaid

I'd like learning irish but my level is 0. Now, I have 3 books (the first Tech yourself of Mylos Dillon, Learning irish of Ó Siadhail and Buntús cainte) with original audio but I doubt what is the better for starting.

I'm waiting for “The Irish of West Muskerry” and “The Irish of Cois Fhairrge” (I bought in Deas and Amazon) and I have O'Rahily and Modern Irish' by Ó Siadhail.

In Ó Siadhail I see a lot of rules and differences between dialects but no history.

I'm look for a book like O'Rahilly but more recent (1932 is very old), more big and with tables, graphics, maps.

For example, O'Rahilly say “In the combinations CN, GN, TN, Northern Irish ha substitued a nasalized R for N, while Souther Irish retains the N. In the Aran Islands, ..., usage is mixed, N and R being used indifferently. Scotish Gaelic, like Irish, retains the N in writinng; but in Scotish espeech it is always pronunced as R. Manx knows only R”

But this change is the same in 3 languages or it is a parallel change ? This change may be a influence of others english? The geographic distribution is the same of others changes?

I see that Munster has a declination more conservative than Galway. Is possible to know in what century is loss the dative or the genitive plural in each dialect?

Thanks and sorry for my arapahoe english (honestly "catalan english").

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Danny2007
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Username: Danny2007

Post Number: 308
Registered: 12-2007


Posted on Monday, April 13, 2009 - 11:32 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Yes, consider 'Irish Dialects and Irish-Speaking Districts' by Brian Ó Cuív from 1949. That's from DIAS (Dublin Institute of Advanced Studies). He specialises in the Irish of Cork, especially Múscraí. A chapter is also devoted to the state of Irish based on the census returns of 1851. Fascinating stuff, imo.

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Seant
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Username: Seant

Post Number: 18
Registered: 02-2009
Posted on Tuesday, April 14, 2009 - 03:55 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

John Donovan's 1845 grammar (a famous book) says that back then dative plurals were rare. With nouns such as fir, fearaibh was commonly found but he says it would sound very strange to use words such as capallaibh. So the loss of the dative plural except for certain expressions and a handful of common nouns dates back at least one and a half centuries if not more.

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Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg
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Username: Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg

Post Number: 506
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Tuesday, April 14, 2009 - 08:34 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Hola, Mikel, què hi ha? D'on ets i per què vols començar a aprendre irlandès?

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 2805
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Tuesday, April 14, 2009 - 07:42 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

In Ó Siadhail I see a lot of rules and differences between dialects but no history.



There are underlying historical forms to explain the evolution till the current dialectal pronunciations.

quote:

I'm look for a book like O'Rahilly but more recent (1932 is very old), more big and with tables, graphics, maps.



I don't know any book like that. But as far as I know, the most up-to-date book about that stuff is Stair na Gaeilge (but it's in Irish...)

quote:

For example, O'Rahilly say “In the combinations CN, GN, TN, Northern Irish ha substitued a nasalized R for N, while Souther Irish retains the N. In the Aran Islands, ..., usage is mixed, N and R being used indifferently. Scotish Gaelic, like Irish, retains the N in writinng; but in Scotish espeech it is always pronunced as R.



no there is at least one dialect that has retained n there (in Lewis, if i remember well) :-)

quote:

But this change is the same in 3 languages or it is a parallel change ? This change may be a influence of others english?



It may be a parallel change (that evolution is found in some dialects of Breton, and it is not related because these languages are too different), or something that happened long ago.
According to Stair na Gaeilge (p.471) : you find the first written evidence of cn > cr in the 16th century but this evolution is probably older.



quote:

I see that Munster has a declination more conservative than Galway. Is possible to know in what century is loss the dative or the genitive plural in each dialect?



The genitive plural still exists !
For the dative, according to Stair na Gaeilge (p.450), the dative and the nominative began to merge around the beginning of the 17th century.

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Seant
Member
Username: Seant

Post Number: 21
Registered: 02-2009
Posted on Tuesday, April 14, 2009 - 08:09 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I dug out the 1845 quote from Donovan's Grammar.

p84 quotes Patrick Lynch as saying "a man would be laughed at in the country, were he to say, tabhair feur do na caiplibh, or do capalluibh, give hay to the horses; instead of tabhair feur do na capuil. However, fear, a man, and a few other monosyllabic words, are an exception to the above, as we say, na fearaibh, os na fearaibh, do na fearaibh," etc.

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(Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Tuesday, April 14, 2009 - 11:11 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Hola Domhnaillín

És agradable troba algú que sap català en aquest forum. Soc de Barcelona i m'interessen tots els idiomes, però posats a escollir, l'irlandès em sembla dels més atractius.

Com és que tú has estudiat un idioma tan petit com el català?

De fet, soc també un col.leccionista de gramátiques, diccionaris y materials en tots els idiomes que puc aconseguir.



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