There is always alot of talk on forums such as this about 'An Caighdeán Oifigiúil', Ireland's 'official' standard grammar and spelling for Gaelic.

I would like to clear up a few facts.

1. It is not a law! It's just small book.

2. Almost all writing in Ireland, 99.99% is in official standard spelling, Laws, exam papers, Nuacht 24, Nós*, TG4's website - everyting, aside form small amounts of dialectal spellings in folklore collections.

3. Almost all writing in Ireland, circa 95% employs standard grammar. Some varitations are to be found in regional publications.

4. Most of the vocabulary used in writing corresponds to the Standards' recommended variant choices and the Foclóir Gaeilge Béarla, some publications such as Nós* and Foinse permitt some vocubularic variatition.

5. Most Irish speakers are happy with the standard.

6. The standard does lack standard basic phrases and that is something that has to be agreed on, for example, I would prefer 'Conas tá tú' as standard for How are you? but many would disagree.

But anyway, my point is this, people talk up disatisfaction with the standard and many myths are formed, my message to learners is to learn all you can and don't worry about it - and if you want to use your Irish at any stage make sure you can keep it standard!

i disagree

even among dubliners and people with no gaeltacht they tend to adopt a certain dialact or mix it up

for example look at most poetry
not to mention the 1000 plus years of writing before the caighdean

my advice would be to not limit yourself to any one dialact and especialy an artificial one

quote:

5. Most Irish speakers are happy with the standard.

Ooooh no! (most can't even write it properly!)
Who told you such a lie?



Just one fact, Ggn :

Almost nobody speaks Standard Irish. Standard Irish has no native speakers. All native speakers speak their dialect and don't care for the Standard. Go to any Gaeltacht, you'll never hear Standard Irish...

All literature, poems, songs are all in Gaeltacht Irish, never the Standard.

quote:

6. The standard does lack standard basic phrases and that is something that has to be agreed on, for example, I would prefer 'Conas tá tú' as standard for How are you? but many would disagree.

Conas tá tú is Standard Irish (except for missing a in atá, I suppose)
as well as Cén chaoi a bhfuil tú or Cad é mar atá tú.
All of them are perfect Standard Irish in vocabulary and grammar.
A grammar standard doesn't have 'basic phrases'. It is no dialect of its own.

Non-Standard is Conas taoi or Goidé mar atá tú because of dialect word forms.

Lars

I agree with Ggn. He has set it out very clearly. Those wishing to use a dialect in such domains as Ggn has mentioned would be creating difficulties for themselves and others.

Those wishing to teach a "written" dialect to the thousands upon thousands of Irish children who learn the language every day would soon have a visit from complaining parents.

"Spoken" Irish is different. Pronunciation has a recommended standard in (I think!!!) An Foclóir Póca but everyone who speaks Irish has learnt it from someone else - a mother, grandfather, cousin, neighbour, teacher, child minder etc and they learnt their Irish from someone else so the dialect pronunciations are safely being passed on.

Why learners in other parts of the world are so pre-occupied by "dialect" and a refusal to learn the Caighdeán Oifigiúil is beyond me.

I suspect foreign universities lay down certain requirements for all their foreign language courses apart from the "World" languages English, French (lots of dialects in France. Try using one of them in any domain other than the peasant piggery or cowshed); German (now there's a language with lots of dialects); Spanish, Russian and so on.

For a lesser-used language like Irish it must be in such a primitive state that the only way to learn it is to approach a toothless old granny with a tape-recorder in order to save the last of the precious dialect. Ignore the fact that millions of words of Irish are written and used every day by those writing -- and presumably speaking -- in An Caighdeán Oifigiúil.

This is a silly sterile futile argument and was decided upon seventy or eighty years ago when the Irish language was accepted seriously as a medium for law, education, and administration by the Irish Government and more recently by the European Union. I'm sorry to have got drawn into this discussion yet again by those stirring the dialect pot and who seem to be merely seeking to "put the fool further".

By all means learn dialect. Learn them all. Start with Rinn Ó gCuanach, Cléire, Uíbh Ráthach, Corca Dhuibhne, Muscraí Uí Fhloinn, and so on. Enjoy.

Anti-Caighdeán Gaeltacht speakers of Irish have their own standard: English. Most can't wait to master it and they use it relentlessly with their children and neighbours.

Meanwhile they fill the heads of visiting scholars with their distain for Gaeilge na Leabhar and those who speak any other dialect than their own. As if they had any interest in preserving their own dialect. It is nonsense. Over. By all means cultivate and learn a dialect or two or three but make sure you know the Caighdeán well. It is the most used and most useful form of Irish outside the Gaeltacht.

On the other hand, if you are a dilettante with no intention of going very far with the language or getting a job in the Civil Service or Teaching or ever using it in any domain outside the occasional visit to the Gaeltacht by all means study the dialect of Baile i bhFad siar. It will earn you the admiration of all.

The Irish language would've died out years ago if it wasn't for the Gaeltacht regions. But now, as the 'figures' clearly show, the responsibility of saving the language is too heavy a burden without a well orchestrated attempt by all Irish people to embrace the language.

It is possible!

Ní neart go cur le chéile

Ní deachtóir é an Caighdeán Oifigiúil ach cúntóir.

Because of the special circumstances pertaining to the Irish language there is no, to all intents and purposes, natively spoken standard language in existence. But I don't see the necessity of making such an issue about the co-existence of the native dialects and the official standard. Both aspects can be cultivated in a fruitful and non-confrontational manner.

I remember some native speakers in the Gaeltacht years ago giving out about the Caighdeán but most of it was based on a misunderstanding which should have largely disappeared by now and which, in any case, would be damaging, even fatal, in the case of a threatened language like Irish if it were perpetuated artificially.

In Germany, for example, the Standard and the dialects enjoy a relatively easy co-existence. Except for the Standard, communication between the inhabitants of the coastal zone and the Alpine region would be wellnigh impossible in many cases. (It has been known that foreigners with a knowledge of both Hochdeutsch and the local dialect have had to act as interpreter between two Germans from different dialect regions.)

And imagine if we all insisted on using or own dialects in English instead of the "standard" and prefaced every discourse with a tedious argument about whether the standard written version of "car" should be forced on people who say "cyaar", "cyohr", "caw", "caurr", "caar" and whatever they say in Brooklyn... it wouldn't be much fun after a while would it?

Taidhgín said-
"Meanwhile they fill the heads of visiting scholars with their distain ...[for] those who speak any other dialect than their own."

That is totally not true. Dialect speakers have mutual respect for each others dialects.

You cannot compare Irish to French where every frenchman and woman speak french fluently.

Dialect is the living spoken language. CO is artificial and forced on us.

And I find your comments highly offensive to native speakers.

The Caighdeán Oifigiúil or Official Standard is like a minimum level of basic Irish. Irish is a huge language comprising the sum of all the dialects -- including those of Scottish Gaidhlig which we relish. It has a huge corpus of literature and recorded folklore.

In a Leaving Certificate Irish Language essay anyone displaying a good knowledge of any dialect who included local spelling, cora cainte (idiom), seanfhocail (proverbs), and references to the literature would achieve far higher marks than a student who merely wrote the simple pap that is presented in school books however accurate.

The CO is merely a basic guideline on grammar and spelling. It is not compulsory except in "Official" documents whatever they may be. It contains the sentence "Níl teir ná toirmeasc ar cheartfhoirmeacha eile."

Munster speakers might have an affection for the abbreviation "Canathaobh?" that's written "Cad ina thaobh?" in the Caighdeán and pronounced "Canathaobh?" What's the fuss?

"Chúns" in Conamara is "a chomh fhad is" in the Caighdeán and presumably if you know the phrase you know how to pronounce it.

"Chan a bhfuil fhios agam fá dtaobh de" otherwise known among English speakers as "Hanawillissagamfahdhoodeh" is no problem to anyone on being told that "ao" is almost "ú" in the dialect. In the others it is "aí" or "ae".

"Cha" is only used in a small number of areas in the North and while understood is likely to be relegated to "lesser-used" status. "Ní" is the widely used form.

Lastly, I find myself thinking of the old saying "an t-uan ag múineadh méiligh dá máthair".

Slán agaibh, agus go raibh oíche mhaith faoi shuan is faoi shíocháin agaibh go léir agus codladh sámh.

I said "Anti-Caighdeán Gaeltacht speakers of Irish" not all Gaeltacht speakers of Irish.

Then I will put myself on the record as an "Anti-Caighdeán Gaeltacht speaker of Irish" too.

Bíodh agat, a Bhaidhbh. Cén fáth ar roghnaigh tú an t-ainm sin? Le creidhill báis a ghuí ar an teanga?

sorry i took your crap with a pince of salt until the scots gaelic bit
scots gaelic is a seperate language

taidhgín the samples you chose clearly show an ignorance or a lack of knowledge on the dialects

its more than pronunciation . . .

pinch separate it's

an ignorance or a lack of knowledge on the dialects

Really?

its more than pronunciation . . .

True.

>scots gaelic is a seperate language

Is fíor sin--de réir dhearcadh riaracháin agus polaitíochta. De réir dhearcadh teangeolaíochta ní Gaeilge na hAlban ach canúint eile sa chontanam canúintí Gaelach.

quote:

Conas tá tú is Standard Irish (except for missing a in atá, I suppose)
as well as Cén chaoi a bhfuil tú or Cad é mar atá tú.
All of them are perfect Standard Irish in vocabulary and grammar.

Yes but they why are most Irish children taught "conas atá tú?" at school?

quote:

Those wishing to use a dialect in such domains as Ggn has mentioned would be creating difficulties for themselves and others.

What kind of difficulties?

quote:

The CO is merely a basic guideline on grammar and spelling. It is not compulsory except in "Official" documents whatever they may be. It contains the sentence "Níl teir ná toirmeasc ar cheartfhoirmeacha eile."

True, but in universities, if you don't write your essays using the CO grammar and spelling, you won't have a good mark. For example you can't write "daofa" instead of dóibh, "fá chionn" instead of "faoi cheann", gan trácht ar na briathra...

I agree with Ggn agus Taidhgín. As I see it, Ggn is saying make sure you can write using CO forms. Few people write in any other. Know the CO pronunciations as they exist.

How hard is it for good speakers to know both the CO and the Irish of Cois Fharraige, for example?

I don't know what some of you expect. Are teachers in Wicklow or Longford or wherever supposed to teach a particular native dialect? A standard was inevitable.

Gaeltacht Irish is spread too thin for these types of squabbles, in my opinion.

Let's face it...the survival of the Irish of Cléire, Múscraí, Uíbh Ráthach, Gleann Cholm Cille/Teileann and Tuar Mhic Éadaigh is not guaranteed. There are only a few hundred native speakers of each dialect (or subdialect) left in these particular Gaeltachtaí. In the case of Cléire it's less than 100.

Places like An Rinn and Ceathrú Thaidhg are also in a precarious state. Corca Dhuibhne less so.

To me, the only game in town is the Irish of south Conamara or the CO with a heavy Conamara influence. It's by far the most widely spoken in the Gaeltacht.

No offense to the Ulster folks. :D

"Yes but they why are most Irish children taught "conas atá tú?" at school? "

Because he basic phrases are not agreed - they should be and these should be used in learning materials.

My point is this, learners can read this site and get a totally wrong impression, that there are a huge number of people in Ireland in revolt over some rules regarding spelling etc.

Don't just take my word for it, look up TG4, Nuacht 24. nós*, comhar, Foinse, etc. etc.

Pick up a book in an Irish language book shop.

It is standard spelling and 95% standard grammar folks.

Do you think that if an RnaG employee in Bun Beag writes an email to a colloegue in Kerry that they write in pre-standard spelling?

I learned Irish without ever even hearing tell of the CO. I learn from whoever is teaching the class , and when i reached a astage to spread my Gaeilge wings i starting going to Gaeltachtaí and reading Lá ,Foinse and books. After that i starting listening to RnaG and watching TG4 , which wakened my ears to the other dialects , and yeas it was hard , but its getting easier , and unlike this debate and the other similar debates , i kept my head down and studied and enjoyed and loved every single blessed moment of it and the rich Tapestry that is " Gaeilge "
The standard and all the rich beautiful and wonderful dialects are out there for me when i get the chance and i am ready to meet them , to embrace and enjoy and love as much as i already respect and love what i have already learned. Maybe this shows you all that i for a change am not gonna get involved or annoyed as i have in the past with this sort of nonsense, i hope maybe i have turned a corner to this foolishness and i will read with interest and add my "Tuppence" when i feel i should just let you all know where i stand on these issues , which in fact i dont recognise as issues at all.

Mise le meas a chairde

Teifeach

Teifeach,

Maith thú, did you learn to spell athrú or athrughadh?

Do you write Níl or Ní fhuil?

athrú , níl , i would agree at this stage my Irish is like a lot of adult learners and some kind of Heinz 57 lol a mixture with a strong CO , but is cuma liom , the most important thing is Conversation and Understanding , as long as i use it regularly , i.e i speak it and get to use it , and be spoken too. Thats my only concern , and Enjoyment. what about you ?

Teifeach,

I started the thread because I was concerned that learners may be put off learning Irish due to misunderstandings regarding standard Irish.

"athrú , níl " are obviously standardised spellings.

This is my point.

I get this all the time when there can be two or more words or pronunchiations for phrases , and asked whats the difference , or where do they come from , i just reply by telling the target class which one i use , and just to be aware of the differences ( and embrace them), sin é , its complicated enough as a learner.

Athrú and níl don't change in dialects anyway, except Munster people may say "atharú" but it's a different form (in morphological terms). So it's not a good example.

it's a different form (in morphological terms)

A Lughaidh, an bhfuilir sásta seo a mhíniú beagán níos mine?

Irish should have a written standard which draws on all the dialects and - apart from the issue of spelling - the developers of the C.O. haven't done all that bad a job.
But I don't see any need for an atificial spoken dialect. Especially when its pronunciation has frequently been shaped to match the mutilated 'modern' orthography.

If a 'central dialect' is needed it should be, in my opinion, based on the Irish of Túr Mhic Éadaigh which is linguistically and geographically the most central dialect.

I think learners should base their speech on one dialect but feel free to make use of words and phrases from all Ireland.

An bhfuil "Canúnachas an Soilsithe" (Dialektik der Aufklärung) le Theodor Adorno léite ag éinne agaibh?

in irish universities you can use dialects
once you are consistent . . . .

but yes i agree - understanding and speaking etc are the most important - draw on the language as a whole and dont limit yourself to any small box



gaelic is a seperate language for the past 500? years maybe more, im not sure

but you can not argue that it is not a seperate language now, altho it did start as irish, develop into a dialect and then seperate so far . . .

quote:

A Lughaidh, an bhfuilir sásta seo a mhíniú beagán níos mine?

Ciallann sé gurb ionann athrughadh agus athrú ó thaobh na staire dó.

quote:

in irish universities you can use dialects
once you are consistent . . . .

In Coleraine (and I guess it's the same in the other universities), you have to write in the standard: standard grammar (morphology and syntax) and standard spelling.
In speech you can speak in the dialect you want, but in writing you have no choice. I am very consistent in the way I write Irish : Gaoth Dobhair forever, an t-am ar fad. But that was not accepted in exams and essays when I was there.

A Chonchubhair, do scríobhais: but you can not argue that it is not a seperate language now, altho it did start as irish, develop into a dialect and then seperate so far

Actually, you can argue that if you like. The thing is, "Scottish Gaelic is a language" by itself doesn't mean anything in particular. It's a statement like "He is an American". Without context, this could mean anything from "He is a legal citizen of the USA" to "He acts like a stereotypical Yank." "Language" has at least the same latitude of meaning. When Mark Burgess sings: "Speaking languages I don't understand / Economics, supply and demand," he's not at all claiming that "the language of economics" is the same sort of thing as "the languages of Canada".

So, if you what you mean when you say that "Scottish Gaelic is a language" is that is has its own official written standard independent of Irish...well, actually, you're better off just saying that, since that's an empirically-verifiable claim, whereas the other statement, by itself, is little better than an opinion. It's not on a par with "[e] is a vowel" or even "In Coleraine..., you have to write in the standard[.]"

/headdesk

Cad atá ort, a Antaine?

no, im sorry scottish gaelic is a language
same statement of fact as welsh is a language
english is a language and german is a language


as for the coleraine thing, well i can only speak for two certain dublin universities on my statement of once you are consistent and once it is good acurate irish - no matter the dialect

quote:

no, im sorry scottish gaelic is a language
same statement of fact as welsh is a language
english is a language and german is a language

And as Bosnian is a language and Montenegrin is a language and as Chinese is a language but Cantonese isn't. That is to say--chun madadh marbh a mharú--it's not really a statement of fact at all, at least of scientific fact.

Agus más é do thoil é, a Chonchubhair, nuair a chuirfidh tú freagra air seo, tabhair iarracht ar argóint a chur ar aghaidh is níos fearr ná "toisc go ndeirim gur amhlaidh an rud é". Cad iad na critéir go mbaineann tú feidhm astu chun "teanga" a shainiú?

you cant not agree that scottish is a language

I dont need to put up a stronger argument



the most hardline protestant rangers fan in scotland could not dispute and would not dispute that scottish is a language

I knew a rangers fan,from Strathconon,near Inverness.He could speak Scots Gaelic.As opposed to Scots or Lallan.I don't think the scots have a 'dialect problem',most of the speakers live in the Hebrides ,not widely separated as in Ireland.

A Dhomhnaillín, is cosúil gur casadh troll eile ort. Breathnaigh cé na cleasanna atá sé a imirt ar an taobh eile den fhóram :)

Is maith liom do chuid argóinteacht, a Chonchubhair, an-fhear. Mara miste leat mé do chuid argóint a chur níos foide sa treo céanna, is cuma le hardline neo-Nazi fans de Spartak, Moscó, ann nó as Gaeilge na hAlban. Dhá bharr sin, níl sí sin ann ar chor ar bith, agus ní fiú agróint a dhéanamh fúithi. Is díomhaoin é mar argóint.

Ná fuil rud ach an mí-ádh atá ag siúl liom sa fhóram so ar na mallaibh, an bhfuil? Agus maidir leis an chuid de stíl argóinteachta atá ag Conchubhar, measaím gur ó John Cleese ar fhoghlaim sé í.

Tá a fhios agam go bhfuil cúpla trasnálaí istigh ar an gcomhrá seo nach mian nó nach féidir leo comhrá ciallmhar a dhéanamh ná cur lenár n-eolas ar an nGaeilge ach daoine a bhfuil Gaeilge acu bainfidh siad an-taitneamh as cuairt a thabhairt ar Inse Gall na hAlban mar a mhaireann an Ghaidhlig ina teanga bheo go fóill. Tá an Ghaidhlig agus an Ghaeilge an-chosúil lena chéile sa scríbhneoireacht. Tá difear idir an chaoi a fhuaimnítear an dá theanga sa chaint áfach ach má éisteann tú rachaidh tú i dtaithí ar na difríochtaí ansin beidh tú in ann cló na Gaidhlige a chur ar do chuid Gaeilge agus beidh leat.

Cloisfidh tú:
Cia mar a tha thu? (Cé mar atá tú? Cad é [Goidé] mar atá tú?)
Tha mi sgith (Táim tuirseach. [Má tá suigh síos agus lig do sgith])
"Ceart nó cearr bí ag bruidhean na Gaidhlig" (Ceart nó mí-cheart bí ag labhairt na Gaidhlig")

Feicfidh tú ainmneacha tí ar nós "ceol na mara".

Tuigfidh tú go bhfuil focail atá ar eolas go maith againn sa Ghaeilge in úsáid go tréan sa Ghaidhlig. Má ghlacann tú le focal na saoithe a bhfuil an dá theanga acu bainfidh tú an-sásamh as staidéar a dhéanamh ar an dá theanga.

john cleese or not


i dont see how you can argue that gaelic is just a dialect of irish - hundreds of years ago yes - no doubt

but today it is a seperate language

yes they are similar, so is manx - i fail to see how that doesnt qualify it as a language?




just also like to point out - on radio and tv - the official is rarely followed - even on tg4 and rnag

but today it is a seperate language

Led thoil, a chara, mínigh cad atá i gceist nuair a ndeir tú sin nó stad dá rá. Ní dhéanann athrá na cainte céanna argóint--seo an bhrí atá leis an tagairt do Monty Python.

Do you have arguments to say that Irish and Scottish Gaelic are the same language today?
To me it's just as saying Spanish and Italian are the same language... You can be "similar" without being the same.

Frankly, I don't consider it important what terminology one uses to refer to these linguistic varieties as long as one actually puts some thought into the choice. I think that the term "language" is nothing but a granfalloon anyway, which is why I prefer to speak of "formal standards", "dialect continua", "spoken varieties", and the like.

Those who try to maintain that the distinction between a "dialect" and a "language" is based on objective criteria most often invoke "mutual intelligibility". (Of course, this only has the effect of begging the question, since there's no objective scientific definition of this term either.) Clearly, there is mutual intelligibility between the various forms of modern Goidelic, so it essentially becomes an arbitrary matter of deciding what degree is "good enough" and drawing an imaginary line there. The magazine nós*, for instance, takes the most generous view and includes articles written according to the Scottish Gaelic standard.

It may be primarily because I'm a learner that I find spoken Ulster Irish hardly more comprehensible than spoken Hebridean Gaelic (though I have come across similar complaints from other, native speakers of Munster dialect), so if I were to draw my line, it might end up somewhere near Tourmakeady. I'd be interested in seeing where you, Lughaidh, as a speaker of Gweedore, would draw yours.

To me, Scottish Gaelic is a different language, even though a good part of its grammar and vocabulary are similar to the Irish ones. When I listen to Scottish speakers who're speaking naturally, I don't understand them well, and what I understand is due to the fact I studied Scottish Gaelic a bit... If you take a Gweedore speaker to Lewis, I don't think he'll be at ease (except if he uses English maybe). Scottish Gaelic is full of words that don't exist in Irish, or that can't be recognized anymore.

Scottish and Irish speakers may understand each other, it depends on what they're talking about. Just as a French or a Spanish speaker could understand Italian if the sentences that are said use words that are "recognizable"...

Lughaidh

"To me it's just as saying Spanish and Italian are the same language... You can be "similar" without being the same."

I had a linguistics professor in college who said, "the only reason why Spanish is a 'language' instead of a dialect of Italian is because Spain is a country."

no lie

Which proves that even linguistics professors in colleges can talk nonsense (I knew it was true in France, now I know it is true in other countries too)...

They certainly can, Lughaidh, but you're mistaken to hold up this example as proof.

There's at least as much difference between the spoken varieties of Sicily and southern Italy on the one hand and the Padanian Plain (not to mention what you find in the high valleys of the Alps) on the other as there is between Standard Italian and Standard Spanish. The fact that a certain subset of Romance varieties have come to be considered "dialects of Italian" is more historical accident than anything else.

An example sentence for comparison:

1. Mé sorełe łe xe drio rivar.
2. Mis hermanas están llegando.
3. Les meves germanes estan arribant.
4. Le mie sorelle stanno arrivando
5. Li mi soru stannu rivannu.

If you had to class the varieties represented based on linguistic commonalities, how would you divide them up and why?

(Message edited by Domhnaillín_Breac_na_dTruslóg on April 07, 2009)

Whilst having no real desire to enter this debate, which we have had before.

It should be pointed out that many in Ulster consider Scottish Gaelic to be a simply the next dialect on.

That doesnt take away from its status.

For example, I have pints often with a Lewis man, this debate doesnt come into it. We just speak Gaelic as Gaeil.

'Irish' and 'Scottish' are not relevent. We hybridise, think, switch, learn but most of the times we just speak.

I have been to Íle and we all just spoke together, in the same language - Gaelic. There is little they say that we don't know, and they is little that we say that they dont get.

As an old man in Islay said to a group of us, we are one people with one language, we gave a cheer.

People get hung up about the differences, but speakers tend just to get on with it.

Anyone see the 'foscailt doirse' cd? It is a joint Ulster Irish Íle Gaelic cd, put things well into perspective.

Er, Ggn's post was right in essentials, at least as regards the fact that most learners in the Galltacht are happy with standard Irish, although native speakers in the Gaeltacht speak their own dialects and there is some evidence they are put off from reading due to the standard, but are not actively opposing the standard either. People who are in Ireland, in the schools or the media, will as Ggn and others say come under pressure to use the standard, but the reason people learning Irish over the Internet abroad are less interested in the standard is just that: they are not in Irish schools or working as translators in Ireland or working in the Irish media, so they can please themselves!

What's wrong with that? I like free choice!

Note to Lughaidh about the CO at Coleraine: did the Anglo-Irish agreement on peace specifically legally incorporate recognition of the CO into Northern Irish law? If not, if it was important enough to you, you could see a lawyer about challenging a decision by the university to mark down your essays. Possibly not worth it - but I am just pointing out that the legal basis of their decision could be shaky.

Ceist agam ort, Ggn: an bhfuil mórán den Ghaidhlig ar eolas ag daoine ar Íle? Do people in Islay know much Gaidhlig or are there any good speakers of the language left and where?

quote:

Note to Lughaidh about the CO at Coleraine: did the Anglo-Irish agreement on peace specifically legally incorporate recognition of the CO into Northern Irish law? If not, if it was important enough to you, you could see a lawyer about challenging a decision by the university to mark down your essays. Possibly not worth it - but I am just pointing out that the legal basis of their decision could be shaky.

Well, I don't care now since I did these exams in 2002 and I had high marks (I sticked to the CO) but I think it's a pity native speakers can't write in their dialect. There were several native speakers there and if all natives are told their native Irish is not correct enough to be used in exams, what will they think? Probably they won't speak Irish to their children, believing they'll learn the "correct" Irish at school. You see the disaster it may be.

Taidhgín,

About 25%.

Taidhgín,

About 25%.

There were several native speakers there and if all natives are told their native Irish is not correct enough to be used in exams, what will they think?
The same thing native English speakers would think, or native French speakers... that certain contexts call for fully standard language, and that academic writing is one of them.

Most of the native speakers I know - of any language! - have no problem with being required (in certain contexts) to write some things differently than they say them. Why do you assume Irish speakers must be different?

Abigail, you are being a bit naughty! The English and French standards are not as artificial as the Irish one. They were not drawn up by committee and do have millions of native speakers. When the Irish standard was drawn up, probably because of the way in which it was done, I believe that the documents specifically accepted all dialectal forms. Standard Irish is for the Galltacht only.

In a work context, I could easily, more easily write in the Irish most easy for me, Gaedhalg Ó Méith Mara, ach 'dé as a bheinn ag iarraidh scríobhadh i gcanúint nach dtuigfeadh ach treas nó ceathrar againn? An bhfeil ciall le sin?

It is my duty to maximise understanding on the text, therefore one sticks to the very basic spelling conventions, basic vocabulary ad grammar rules that have been agreed.

Ultimately, it does matter what they are, as long as everyone sticks to it.

Outwith private emails etc, I will write to promote understanding.

I do this in speech also, indulging my dialectal depths for my own pleasure with those who wish and who are capable of fully understanding what I am saying.

Why would I write ...

"Tá corraí mór oram óir tá mé ro-phráinneach 'niu"

when I could write

"tá fearg orm óir tá mé an-ghnóthach inniu"

Nonsense. Where is Standard English the community language, or RP the regional accent?

In fact the French standard and the German standard are developed and maintained by committees. English has no linguistic governing body at all, the French one is strictly advisory (like the CO!), and the German one is only legally binding on the educational system.

The difference is that Irish-speaking society cannot support a prestige dialect, which would eventually be codified and tweaked into a standard. We used to have that eight hundred years ago, but we don't now, and we never can have again; the kind of social stratification that could produce such a thing wouldn't be tolerated now for a minute.

But be that as it may, some sort of written standard was needed, and so one has been developed.

If you think it could be better, if you think it's a complete crock, if you think we really ought to have had three standards for three dialects, or one common standard between Irish and Gaelic... that's not my point. My point is that there is a standard, as there is in most other European languages - and that like most other European speech communities, Irish speakers collectively have shown themselves reasonably happy to go along with it. As Gael gan Náire says, look at the evidence. Look at the bestselling books, the popular websites, the letters to the editor. Most people writing in Irish today - native speakers included - are writing in near-standard Irish.

The CO is much less controversial among Irish speakers than, say, the Rechtschreibreform has been in Germany; it's just the nature of Internet fora to attract cranks.

LOL, this topic seems to keep everybody busy... I'll throw my log into the fire.

For the matter of the previous couple posts... strictly standard Finnish, for an example, is seldom spoken by natives, outside official situations of almost military importance. Foreign learners go with it mostly, it is taught at schools, and used in official documents and such publications, but as an everyday spoken language the standard is awkward. The dialects, and their mixtures with each other and the standard, are the way of speech. The spelling follows pronunciation 99% and on that part dialects can be written the same as they are spoken.

But to teach anything systematically and effectively, especially to foreign people, you need at least some guidelines to follow, even more so in minor languages, IMHO. Standards as reference norms are in the best interest of everyone, but of course they should not be forced on so that they quench creative and lively language.

(Message edited by curiousfinn on April 08, 2009)

"The CO is much less controversial among Irish speakers than, say, the Rechtschreibreform has been in Germany; it's just the nature of Internet fora to attract cranks."

This is my point, I am just afraid of people being put off learning.

Everyone writes athrú not athrughadh, except in hand writting perhaps?

It is not a cause for concern outside of the blogasfeár.

My attitude to all of this use of language and dialect is English for the world at large; An Caighdeán Oifigiúil for important official stuff in Irish; and na canúintí for the various characters in my forthcoming novel FORA to be published posthumously, agus an chanúint is ansa liom féin don teallach, don leaba, agus don chliabhán.

Seriously, though, there are lots of moribund dialects that I would love to hear again and now that digital recorders can perform miracles wouldn't it be nice to have a series of CDs (or MP3s or whatever) of the [enhanced] recordings of the last speakers (including Ned Madrell!) accompanied by the written text and a translation and perhaps a discussion of points where the dialect deviates from ACO or vice versa.

Where last speakers were not recorded but scholarly descriptions made of the dialect I think it would be a good project to have the texts associated with these descriptions read on to CDs by those who can read the International Phonetic Alphabet and know lots about the pronunciation of vowels, consonants, glottal stops, stressfall and such important things.

I'd love to hear how the people of Muintir Loinnigh, Gleann Gaibhle, Rathlin, Ó Méith, South Tipperary ("An gleann agus a raibh ann"). (Please tell us if you know of others) Even Raidio na Gaeltachta is not much good for dialects like Achill, Cill Ghallagáin, Uíbh Ráthach etc because the speakers from those areas now use the CO. What we want is to hear the good stuff from 100 years ago.

I know a person who knows at least one of those moribund dialects very well and I would love to know if any funding could be obtained anywhere to make it possible for him to record his knowledge and have it published for the rest of us to hear.

A Thaidhgín, which of those dialects does your friend know?

A Abigail, the subject of the thread is a nonsense as none of us can change anything. We can adore the standard or adore a dialect or hate the standard or hate one or all of the dialects, but none of us can wave a magic wand and change the realities on the ground. So the question is just a practical one. Some people will prefer to study one thing or the other, but will need to recognize other forms, and the practical question also extends out to finding learning resources in the chosen form of Irish being learned. It is not something to fall out over.

"The CO is much less controversial among Irish speakers than, say, the Rechtschreibreform has been in Germany."

That's because German is the real language of the German nation, and it matters. People culturally identify with German and feel attached to what they views as correct in it. Unfortunately, your comments about how the CO is uncontroversial among Irish speakers [you need some qualification - there are native speakers who do take issue with it, including the old man who died on Tory Island at 100+ whose relatives asked an Irish learners' list to translate the headstone into an older style of Irish] - is just another way of saying that Irish is not the main language of the Irish nation. In the eyes of most people in Ireland, it simply doesn't matter that much. In the eyes of most native speakers who rarely read in Irish, the standard is an irrelevance.

The minutiae of the standard do not matter because the language has been marginalized. The people who do have strong views on the subject are cranks because their strong views are expended on a marginalized subject. By contrast, people with strong views on German are not cranks because the language is seen to matter.

I'm not trying to change anyone's mind on the merits of the CO, or of having a standard at all - just to counter what both GgN and I see as a badly unbalanced portrayal of the Irish language community.

In fact, my statements above were carefully qualified; I have no intention of generalizing about every native speaker or every Irish speaker, let alone every Irish person. I'm well aware that not every Irish speaker, or native speaker, supports the CO - that there are those who are deeply unhappy with it. But as a community, on the whole, we have made our peace with it. Again, the evidence is pretty clear on that.

Beginning or would-be learners can't examine that evidence for themselves though, and will necessarily form their opinions from reading English-language discussions of the subject. Of course most such discussion is generated by the few whose pet peeve it is, which is fair enough, I suppose - I know I'm just as happy to leave them to it - but it does feed straight into the stereotype of the Gaeilgeoir as wild-eyed anorak, and I think we need to watch that.

Just trying to contribute a bit of balance, that's all.

Look at all the different English accents/dialects.
English language poets use colloquial words and slang terms.
They can still talk to eachother. If there is a breakdown of communication between the rural speakers and people who learned their Irish from the books, thats just showing how Irish is ceasing to be true first language.

Look at Liverpool accents in comparison to Canadian accents. Kerry accents in comparison to Austrailian. Loads of different words, often a reversal of syntax, prounciation. All of this can be seen in the various literature of the world but it dosent stop everyone from communicating with eachother

people seem to be mixing up some spelling variations/pre syandard spellings instead of new spellings for what the dialects are


people speak and show dialectal difference in verbs (mostly using one word instead of two),phrases and urú's and seimhiú's mostly

spelling is a small part on the whole really

well, yes of course it doesnt stop communication - but why essentially force an artificial dialect on speakers when there dialect was grand before

teighim - téim . how did that make sense?

(Message edited by conchubhar1 on April 08, 2009)

If one has to write in the CO in universities I will be lost! I can't write in Standard Irish and don't know the rules I only know dialectical stuff.

depends on uiversity

but im fairly sure in all southern irish universities you are alowed to write in dialects once its consistent and not old spelling

A Choncubhair, the change is actually téighim to téim. *Teighim wouldn't make sense here since (in West Muskerry at least) it would be pronounced */t´əim´/ (cf. feighil /f´əil´/) instead of the correct way, which is /t´e:m´/.

To be honest, I find the whole dialect debate a bit silly. A dialect or accent is something you pick up after living in an area for years. The idea that a foreign English student would have to specify between Cockney English, Scouser English, Geordie English etc is absurd.. they are taught the standard. Then if they ever live in England or a English speaking country they'll slowly pick up the local lingo.. but it's not really important if they do.. (We all love the sound of a French girl's accent when speaking English)
They same applies to Irish and Ireland. To suggest that Dublin Irish speakers or students would have to choose a Gaeltacht dialect in order to be considered a real speaker is an insult.

It's about communication, in real terms.

quote:

The idea that a foreign English student would have to specify between Cockney English, Scouser English, Geordie English etc is absurd

English dialects can not be compared to Irish dialects. Irish dialects has differences in grammar, prononciation, spelling, words and is more special than dialects in this language, because English dialects don't have them features.

Comparing English and Irish is not possible :

- Irish has many dialects, and its standard has no native speakers // English has many dialects and its standard does have native speakers.
If you ask native speakers to learn a standard that is spoken somewhere, it's not like forcing them to learn a dialect that has been invented in the 50s.

- Native Irish is a group of dialects (that are different from the standard). Irish is in danger because it has fewer and fewer native speakers. If you tell to their native speakers that their dialect is wrong, they'll abandon Irish and in a few decades it won't have any native speaker left.
English is not in danger, its dialects are not either. Even if you tell them their dialect is wrong, I think they'll keep using it and anyway there will always be native speakers.

- In English, some dialects are considered substandard because they are mainly spoken by poorer people etc (these are "sociolects", I dunno if that word exists in English). Of course they are not, in a linguistic point of view, but some people may want to abandon their sociolect because of that.
In Irish, the dialects are just regional variations. Nobody would say that Cois Fhairrge Irish is less correct than Ros Goill Irish. So there is no "social" reason to abandon the Irish dialects.

These are the main differences between an endangered language and a language that isn't in danger...

quote:

Lughaidh said-

Comparing English and Irish is not possible :

- Irish has many dialects, and its standard has no native speakers // English has many dialects and its standard does have native speakers.
If you ask native speakers to learn a standard that is spoken somewhere, it's not like forcing them to learn a dialect that has been invented in the 50s.

I totally agree with you Lughaidh.

Let me correct a misimpression. Yes, standard English has millions of speakers. Someone said ealier that standard English does not, but in fact dialectal differences have declined greatly in the modern period. There are dialectal differences, especially in Scotland and with Cockney, but if you go to Yorkshire expecting to hear Yorkshire "dialect", you will be disappointed. What you will hear is standard English spoken with a Yorkshire accent, but if you are looking for grammatical differences, you might find some in some farflung village. In Scotland, surveys show 70% speak Standard English with a Scottish accent. Only 30% speak Scots dialect. In fact, Lughaidh, English dialects are endangered.

As I said above, sociolects exist in English because it is the real language of the nation and it matters. Only marginalized languages that are regarded as not mattering have no sociolects (unless we are in a perfectly equal Communist society where there is no social stratification).

quote:

The idea that a foreign English student would have to specify between Cockney English, Scouser English, Geordie English etc is absurd.. they are taught the standard.

Which is...? Does bath have the vowel of father or cat?

There is no single normative pronunciation for English. At the very least, a teacher will need to settle on a more Americanised accent (whether identical to General American or otherwise) or a more Britannic one (again, whether a form of RP stricto sensu or not)--Antipodean accents seem to have little prestige abroad, not to speak of Seth Effriken, and I hear from Aussies that they are generally expected to teach toward one or the other major standards.

quote:

Irish dialects has differences in grammar, prononciation, spelling, words and is more special than dialects in this language, because English dialects don't have them features.

Bollocks[*], Trigger, pure and simple. In my everyday English, I say such things as "needs washed" and "as makes no nevermind", phrases I never hear from people across the pond (although I'm told that the former construction originates in Scots and is also found in Ullans). Hiberno-English is studded with calques on Irish such as "he does be" and "I'm after telling him" that are baffling to Englishmen, let alone Californians. Whether or not you agree with Lughaidh that the linguistic ecology of Ireland makes the relationship between the dialects and the standard in Irish incomparable to that between the dialects of English and its various standards (plural, because I don't talk or write like a Briton and no one expects me to either), it makes no sense at all to deny the existence of dialectal differences in English altogether.

quote:

(these are "sociolects", I dunno if that word exists in English)

That word originated in English--as, indeed, did the entire field of sociolinguistics.

And I have to disagree with you about English dialects, Lughaidh. Many are in danger, primarily low-prestige rural varieties. (How many day-today speakers of West Country English have you ever met?) Some of the most interesting varieties (e.g. Tangier Island English, Isle of Wight English) may not survive another generation. Obviously, given the huge disparity in number and diversity of speakers, the loss of a particular English dialect isn't on a par with the loss of any remaining native variety of Irish, but it is still a loss and one that can be traced directly to the promulgation of a national prestige standard.


[*] An expression which would never, ever occur in my native dialect of English.

Letme bring accent v. dialect into the equation. Accent is pronunciation. Dialect is grammar and vocabulary. There is a dialectal difference between American English, English English, Scottish English and Hiberno-English. But accents alone don't constitute a dialect. Isle of Wight English - never heard of it and I come from Hampshire. And I have never heard anyone speak Hampshire dialect - the so called "Hampshire hogs" (speakers of Hampshire English) are nowhere to be found, or at least not easily. [And the Isle of Wight was in the pre-1974 traditional boundaries of Hampshire.]

The vowel in Father vs. Cat is not a dialectal difference, or at least not where grammatical and lexical differences are minimal. Maybe US vs UK pronunciation is a dialectal difference because accental differences are supplemented by more thorough going differences in vocab and grammar.

So the accent vs. dialect distinction may be useful for us in discussing Irish. Maybe accental distinctions are dialectal if they perform grammatical functions? There are probably examples of this in Irish

Some very good arguments have been forwarded. Lughaidh, I agree with what you say to a great extent. Would you do away with the CO altogether or how would you deal with the situation? Surely there has to be some "common ground" for official purposes and for non-native learners.

So folks, how should the problem have been dealt with, PRACTICALLY?

I would be interested to hear your second guesses vis-a-vis the CO.

Ulster Irish spoken with a Munster accent: would that not have been a good compromise?

still didnt make sense to change it domhnailín


why are some people still mixing up accent and dialects?


its different phrases, pronunication and words
differently placed urú's and seimhiú's etc


altho, as stated before, you wont be lost in any area of ireland or anywhere when speaking irish - the gap isnt that wide at all

altho, as stated before, you wont be lost in any area of ireland or anywhere when speaking irish - the gap isnt that wide at all

Amen to that

And to the Nethermost Hell with the "purists."

(Message edited by Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh on April 10, 2009)

No one should try to force other people to join in their learning preferences. That is important. But the "purists" are people you can learn the most from, because they have involved themselves in minutiae, as long as they don't insist you learn what they are learning, and as long as you don't insist they stop learning what they want to learn.

For this reason, I cannot agree at all with "to the nethermost hell with purists". This is like saying: screw scholarship. There should be no scholarship.

With goodwill all round, I would encourage everyone to learn what he wants to learn, and share his scholarship with others. Learning is good thing.

To my mind 'purism' and scholarship are not the same thing.

as long as they don't insist you learn what they are learning

That is the key. When I mention "purists," I'm alluding to the self-appointed pedants whose anal-retentive, wild-eyed devotion to a particular blasted "dialect" supersedes their devotion to Irish itself.

I have lost count of the number of times I have been told, authoritatively, that I am incorrect to say this or that, only to discover later that it was nothing more than a dialectical preference. A perfect, and intensely annoying example of this, is bhíos vs. bhí mé. Likewise with pronounciations.

Domhnall, it is two-way. Tolerance has to be mutual.

I don't think anyone should tell you not to say bhí mé, but then you shouldn't tell anyone not to say bhíos either.

This long thread is an example of what I am talking about. Attempts to insist on a certain preference are made in BOTH directions on this site.

Let people learn what they want - including Standard Irish, including dialects, including Old Irish, and whatever. And learn from them all.

jesus, did someone actualy tell you bhíos is wrong?

jesus, did someone actualy tell you bhíos is wrong?

Hi, Bill. The reverse, actually.

I probably should have just kept my virtual mouth shut, but this really hits a nerve with me.

The way I see it, Irish is difficult enough without the relentless, intensely petty internecine squabbling that regularly gets broadcast by some dialect zealots.

I have nothing against their focusing on any given form of Irish. If they are discussing fine points of comparative grammar or linguistics, that's fine and dandy. I ring the Bullshit Alarm when they go a step beyond and actively instruct a student that he is wrong to say or pronounce something in a certain way simply because he's learning the Irish of a different part of Ireland that isn't that person's particular pet dialect.

Such behavior is unspeakably petty, but that's not what annoys me. What bothers me is that such antics are also pretty effective at putting a damper on the student's enthusiasm, which in the case of Irish is basically a crime.

In any event... I have now once again contributed yet another English screed on an Irish language forum... so I'll shut the &%^$ up!

(Message edited by Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh on April 10, 2009)

(Message edited by Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh on April 10, 2009)

was that directed at me?

they told you bhíos was right

WHAT A CRIME - THEY SHOULD BE PUT TO DEATH
once they didnt actualy say bhíos is the only way then what is your problem?


this is an english and irish language forum

Is fada an lá ó pléadh an t-ábhar seo ar an fhóram seo - ha ha. Bhí sé thar am againn é a phlé arís...is arís eile..is arís eile...Groan. (Caithfidh mé a adhmháil go bhfuil mé ag baint suilt as áfach).

(Message edited by Hugo on April 11, 2009)

nice addition ^

what was the point of that post?

We should be careful not to generate conflict needlessly.

Domnhall claims he was once told (when? by whom?) that "bhí mé" was wrong, and that the hates internecine squabbling, but the trauma of having been challenged on "bhí mé" once entitles him to encourage internecine squabbling on this site. Er? I don't get that. If you don't do internecine squabbling, then just cut it out. Don't post under divisive posts under the pretence of opposing divisiveness. Domhnall your post was a transparent attempt to create a dialectal flame-war (while pretending you hate dialectal flame-wars).

Let people learn what they want. That goes for everyone. It includes Domhnall. It includes Abigail. But it also includes dialectal specialists such as Lughaidh.

What are we discussing? We are going round in circles talking about forgotten arguments in forgotten threads. Talking about dialectal squabbling in 100-post threads is much less satisfying than learning Irish...

yes

but the original post over emphasised the official standards importance in an atempt to stop people being influenced by people sprouting the importance of dialects or a specific dialect


learn irish - if you want and enjoy it

specifics of dialects and older irish etc can be learnt later

a learner doesnt need to read raferty, nolan or the táin (original or modern irish one)

''practice and enjoy'' (dj tutor-lol)

I think Irish is like a tree. The dialects are the roots, the standard is the trunk, and the new fads and uses of the language are the leaves and flowers.

The point is you can't have any one without the others. If you cut off the roots and branches, i.e., stick too closely to the standard, you will be left with a lifeless piece of wood. Most of the leaves and flowers are ephemeral and will fall to the ground and die in time, but some will have contributed nourishment to the bulk of the tree and add to the rings in the trunk.

Likewise cutting out the trunk, you might be lucky and some of the parts might sprout on their own but the risks are very high.

The trunk may be unsightly, pitted and gnarled but it is alive and it holds the whole thing together and gives it a focus. It is too late to be saying "we should have planted it here", or "we should have planted it there." Just be happy that it is still alive, old and gnarled and wise. Personally, I think it is the gnarliness that gives a tree its character.

Meanwhile, English is the new multi-lane expressway about to go over the top of the tree. We have to keep the tree alive from that protect it from the influences of that development. Even passing close by, the pollution has started to affect the growth.

The tree may or may not need pruning to remove the affected parts, but the effort has to be co-ordinated, otherwise you risk chopping out some of the healthy growth with the bad and starving the tree of its nourishment.

Everyone can defend whichever branch or root they think is more important but the main thing to remember is that none of us can go it alone; we all have to work together and try to save the tree as a whole, not just our little bit!

(Agus lá éigin ba mhaith liom a bheith in ann an méid sin uilig a rá as Gaeilge freisin.)

"but the original post over emphasised the official standards importance in an atempt to stop people being influenced by people sprouting the importance of dialects or a specific dialect"

"learn irish - if you want and enjoy it

specifics of dialects and older irish etc can be learnt later"


This is a good example of what I mean. The intolerance goes both ways, and as Conchubhar said this thread was opened in order to denounce the Irish learning choices of some. Let people learn what they want.

"The dialects are the roots, the standard is the trunk, and the new fads and uses of the language are the leaves and flowers."

Actually, I wouldn't want to denounce learners of the standard - as I would violate the approach I myself have laid out above. But the standard is NOT the trunk. The standard has never been spoken by any native speakers of Irish; it is not a standard that dialectal differences have historically branched away from. Classical Irish may be the trunk, spoken around 1200, formalised and used in writing for hundreds of years later, and the dialects may have emerged like branches from that. If you follow the analogy, Classical Irish is the trunk and the dialects are the branches and Standard Irish isn't even on the tree. Standard Irish would be smaller tree, not organically connected to the larger tree, that was planted recently after the seeds underwent genetic modification in a laboratory first. That is actually quite an accurate analogy! But I do NOT deprecate those who choose to learn that - and I would encourage others not to.

learn speak and enjoy irish, if you want


most of these are big points to some (myself included) but mean very little to a learner - especially one who is not irish and is not bogged down with these feelings, thoughts and opinions

they told you bhíos was right

WHAT A CRIME - THEY SHOULD BE PUT TO DEATH
once they didnt actualy say bhíos is the only way then what is your problem?

Do I seriously need to draw you a picture? Okay, let me type this really slowly so you can follow along:

1.) Yes, it was claimed that bhíos was correct, and;

2.) that it was in fact the only correct way to render "I was," and;

3.) that bhí mé was flatly incorrect Irish and could best be considered as bordeline-literate hick-talk.

That's the kind of pretentious, presumptuous crap that I have a problem with. .

Don't post under divisive posts under the pretence of opposing divisiveness. Domhnall your post was a transparent attempt to create a dialectal flame-war (while pretending you hate dialectal flame-wars).

Oh, come off it. Dialect-zealots pull this shit all the time and yes, I'm sorry, but I'm freaking sick of it. Your objection seems to be that calling these people on their petty bullshit is tantamount perpetuating it. In other words, I should "just shut up."

No problem.

(Message edited by Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh on April 11, 2009)

you didnt state whether they said either or was wrong or right
so calm down

and if you were in munster - well i would have to agree that you would respect someone who wants bhíos to be used - its how they talk there

Fóill ort, a Dhomhnaill, ní fiú éirí tógtha faoin ábhar. B'fhéidir gur dhóigh leat go dtarlaíonn an saghas rud seo an t-am ar fad, ach riamh tharla sé dhom. Má cheartaíonn duine éigin ar bheagán cúise tú, déan neamhshuim de agus cuir do shaothair chun staidéar Gaeilge de do réir féin.

Cáisc shona daoibh , i think that this is another of those posts that has gone on too long , and does Absolutely nothing for the language in any way , in fact the opposite. Why are such posts pursued as if they are of any consequence to anyone with any Real interest in the Language. Cant they be ignored and something more relevant and positive to the Language be discussed. Just my tupence worth , if it is the reasoning behind it is that we all want a good ole rant and vent some frustration or another , well fine , rant on. Many silly things have bugged me over the years with teachers being very late for classes and leaving early to watch soccer and also coming in not prepared , how does that inspire anyone? and in the Gaeltachtaí i have been corrected in the wrong circumstances , but i Personally feel it does no good at all to make one stupid asssumption that what i say in my dialect is wrong , and then be made feel small and embarrassed in front of a class, to argue those points here would only give nore credence to the origional mistake and i would rather discuss the Positive experiences that i have had, which are tenfold. I have some friends who when asked about Gaoth Dobhair or Gleann Cholm Cille are more prone to mentioning the one or two times in a shop that they were answered in english when they spoke in Irish , as opposed to mentioning All the friends they made and the great Craic that was had at the classes and in the bar's and sessions and the wonderful experiences of learning from other people and other dialects , this is a practice that i cannot comprehend , and i find it tedious and boring and only puts a negative spin in the Language.

Táim ag léamh "The Power of Babel" le John McWhorter faoi láthair. Agus tá a fhios agam anois cén fáth nach nglacann na teangeolaithe inár measc páirt sa chonspóid seo!

Thabharfadh an tUasal McWhorter ceart tosaíochta do na canúintí os rud é gur teangacha nádúrtha iad a d'fhás ar bhealach nádúrtha. Agus, dar leis, níl aon cheann acu níos "cirte" ná aon cheann eile, mar is fíor-amaideach an coincheap é siúd i measc na gcanúintí/dteangacha "nádúrtha".

Déanann sé tagairt don Fhionlann agus gur dheineadh iarracht sa tír úd caighdeán saorga a chur le chéile ach nach n-úsáidtear é taobh amuigh de réimse an oifigiúlachais. (A Churiousfinn, an fíor sin?)

Tagann na caighdeáin i dtíortha eile ó shórt impiriúlachais. Bhí dream canúna amháin in ann a chanúint a chur chun cinn ar na canúintí eile faoi mar a tharla i gcás an Bhéarla leis an gcanúint a labhraítí sa cheantar mórthimpeall ar Londain.

Níor tharla an rud céanna i stair na Gaelainne sa tréimhse atá thart. B'fhéidir gurb í an fhadhb atá againn ná gur gá caighdeán a bheith ann d'fhonn a bheith in ann a fheidhmiú sa saol nua-aimseartha ach go bhfuil sé beagnach dodhéanta neach saorga mar sin a chruthú a bheadh ina theanga inmharthana agus a nglacfaí leis.

Pé scéal é, cibé réiteach a thiocfaidh ar an scéal amach anseo i gcás na Gaelainne ní dóigh liom gur "Buanchogadh na gCanúintí" an t-ainm a bheidh air.

I mo chás fhéin is breá liom saibhreas na gcanúintí agus is breá liom freisin/leis/fosta an Ghaelainn/Ghaeilg(e) a chloisteáil, a chloisint agus a chluinstin.

(Message edited by ormondo on April 12, 2009)

(Message edited by ormondo on April 12, 2009)

A Theifeach, tá an ceart agat!

Let's hope Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh will not insist on making more and more (and more!) negative threads!

Go raibh maith agat a Sheaint
Níl sin ach mo bharúil , i dont hold much store in Negativity , i find it a waste of time and energy. But by the same line of thought , Everyone is allowed to their own opinion, its how we reply or respond or allow the given Opinions to affect us is what determines if they should be allowed to grow and prosper or Not.
I Generally steer clear from post like this , but i have to admit its hard to read this many posts and not give my opinion which i know will no more change anyones mind in as much as the origional will not affect the bigger picture. I much prefer to hear good and positive things about the people and the Language , that may be naieve of me , But Hey!! like i said you live in your Negativity Bubble and i will live in my Positive one , and live and let live , and we will all get along Famously. To me Irish Is Irish , irrespective of race , colour creed, Nationality , and Dialect or Standard. I love and support it all , and i Never Ever go searching for things that need fixed , i am far too busy learning and enjoying , Life has a funny wee way of sorting things out for herself , i used to be a worrier , but i gave that rubbish up and i just enjoy what i have
" Languge wise" and for one last thought ,
"Life is too short"

Should your vocative be "a Theifigh"? Please advise.

Should your vocative be "a Theifigh"? Please advise.

sílim é , ach call me whatever ya like , i will answer anyways lol

Teifeach

A chairde is cosúil go bhfuil "TROLLS" / Lucht trioblóide ar an bhfóram agus má tá ; b'fhéidir go bhfuil sé thar am vóta a chaitheamh


(Message edited by mickrua on April 12, 2009)

(Message edited by mickrua on April 12, 2009)

Is cosúil le haon saghas eile loitmhíolta na trolls: má bhaineann tú a soláthar bia díobh, imeoid siad. Ní aon ghá "vóta a chaitheamh".

Thairis sin, rud éigin nár thuigeas riamh: Cad'na thaobh go bhfuil sé chomh deacair sin neamhaird a thabhairt ar ábhar ná fuil spéis agat ann? Dá gcuirfeadh na ndaoine uile a thug tráchtanna anso chun gearán a dhéanamh faoin bplé seo tús le snáithe nua suimiúla ina ionad san, bheadh an "díospóireacht steiriúil" seo t'réis seargadh orainn cheana.

I think some of the antagonism seen here stems from simple differences in people's personalities.
Many, maybe most, people are put off and disheartened by negative stories but others, myself included very often, can actually be spurred on by them.
Now of course I love nothing more than to hear hopeful news about the progress of the language but stories and facts about it which sadden, concern or anger me can really drive me on and boost my determination to learn the language and stand up for it whenever I get the opportunity.
I'd imagine people who'd react similarly post negative reports here genuinely assuming they'll have the same effect on everyone.

Just a thought.