I am always struggling with verbs and Irish. I often find myself becoming frustrated because I cannot find the correct verb to use because when I go to the dictionary, I am sent on a wild goose chase.

Are there any modern dictionaries out there which have streamlined their entries to give a more direct meaning to a word? I ask, because I still feel that my FGB is the best in terms of depth of coverage of language, but it is not always the most user-friendly.

For example…

Abair is given about 10 possible meanings that could be covered with “to say.” And while the other entries might give a little more color, they all basically mean the same thing.

1. utter / say

Abair an fhírinne. = Speak the truth.

2. express

Abair i nGaeilge é. = Say it in Irish.

3. state / allege

…abair nach bfhuil baint agat leis. = …say that you have nothing to do with it.

4. give an opinion
5. suppose / assume
6. mean
7. repeat / recite / sing
8. direct
9. report
10. say about

This can all be found on page 2 of FGB 2005 paperback.

I am curious as to what was going through the minds of the people who created this dictionary. While it is very inclusive, I wonder if it might be a little too inclusive. For example, how accurate, or often for that matter, does one use the word abair for “sing?” The example in the book is “Abair amhrán = sing a song” Is this really a good idea?

Would this be accepted by any Irish teacher or speaker in Ireland?

I am looking at my 1996 paperback Welsh-English, English-Welsh Dictionary by H. Meurig Evans and I am thinking why can't there be something like this for Irish.

it looks like this:

rhamant, (au) n.f. romance <---how simple is that!

Are there any Irish dictionaries that are like this? Collin's Gem is the closest I have found, however, it dowesn't really have a lot of coverage of the language. In fact, I am always finding words that are not in there.

"Abair amhrán" is correct. It is not wise to use the English-Irish dictionary only. Best to check the Irish-English as well.

ó dónaill

or briathar na gaeilge - green book


pretty much covers it

FGB is not English to Irish.

And why not? Definitions are definitions, I should be able to easily find the meaning of a word via Irish-English or English-Irish. To not be able to is a sign of a faulty dictionary ;-)

For example, using Collins Gem:

If I look up the verb to engage, I find "fostaigh."

Now when I look up the verb "fostaigh" shouldn't I see "engage" somewhere?

What do I find?

Fostaigh = vt employ / hire

No where is engage even mentioned...this is the sign of a badly written dictionary in my opinion because it can cause the goose chase to begin.

I know that with different languages there are going to be different words, levels of meaning, and different ways of saying something...but Irish is in a unique position. The majority of the people who would probably find themselves using a dictionary are coming from an English background.

In my opinion, a lot of confusion could be avoided if a dictionary was devised with the English speaker in mind. Entries could be made to go English to Irish and still give give the proper coverage that FGB went into with its Irish to English approach.

Also, it is possible to arrange the order of the words based of their frequency of usage. Many languages do this such as French and Russian. While you are offered a variety of words to give your meaning...you can usually be assured that the first one or two options are going to be correct everytime.

But what I am looking for is if there is a Irish dictionary out there with a similar format as the Welsh one that still covers a good portion of the language?

I must say, I find it odd to see you holding up the Evans as a model for a bilingual dictionary. Personally, I find it a pretty poor excuse for one myself. The only way to really give someone an idea of the meaning of a word is to provide examples of usage, which are conspicuously absent from Evans.

As far as I'm concerned, there is no Welsh-English dictionary that's worthy of the name. Y Geiriadur Mawr is comprehensive in its inclusion of archaicisms and such, but it's crap for picking up modern usage and idiom. I would eat an Englishman for a Welsh-English dictionary along the same lines as the de Bhaldraithe.

You don't want a dictionary, you want a wordlist.

I think the originator of this query is making a common mistake in regarding one language [in this case English] as a kind of template against which another language [Irish] should be able to fit. This is treating translation as if it were a decoding process. Each language has its own internal integrity. In other words use the phrase that best conveys what you want to say and don't worry about whether the verb you want can be translated in several different ways in varying contexts. As has been pointed out above 'abair amhráin' is one very common way of saying 'sing a song' or 'say a song'.

As an old fella can I offer my hopefully encouraging thoughts on this subject?

I think learning a language is like an adult learning to swim. At first you cling to the poolside with both hands [learn basic vocabulary], then you cling with one hand and test your own nerve and natural buoyancy [putting some simple verbs and nouns together in some sensible way, then one day you push off from the poolside and take an experimental stroke, maybe with one toe on the pool floor [ you try a simple out loud conversation of one or two common sentences made up of well worn phrases, and exult when what you've just said is understood [you've felt yourself in free motion]. You brand new confidence gets a jolt when you get a reply that leaves you floundering [a foot drops quickly to the pool floor] but nothing can fully erase that feeling of having spoken and been understood. It will drive you on to cross that pool from side to side and then from end to end, and after that ...well it's up to you and how much you want to progress.

Seanfhear

Haigh Seanfhear
That pretty much sums it up for me, but as we all go along with this Process of Learing Gaeilge or possibly anything for that matter ,we get Pearls of wisdom , which when shared , can make the process a little less Lonely.

Some of my Favourites is
" There is No such thing as Stupid question"
" There is No hurry
" You will only get out what You put in "
I have asked questions that i thought was stupid only to find out that oters in the class where thinking the exact same questions , and thanked me for asking it , "So Ask" i was in a hurry at the start and impatient , Not anymore , i am taking my time and really enjoying the experience , so " Slow down and enjoy" I Personally have put ina Lot of Hours Learning, Reading, Writting, Listening, Speaking, and of course Buying Books lol. So "Dedicate as much time as your daily life and routine allows"

To be honest i dunno where this post i have written has come from lol , but i hope No One finds it demeaning , and thinking that those aspects are taken for granted , as i know these 3 points among many many others i had to re-learn , in order to get where i am now and be comfortable and start enjoying and geting the most from Gaeilge.

Teifeach

I am delighted to read of the enthusiasm displayed by Seanfhear and Teifeach. I admit I share it and enjoy every conversation I have in Irish especially with my own children. Thankfully they and a number of their friends have fluent Irish. My wish is to live long enough to hear my grandchildren speak Irish to me.

Incidentally I have a habit of folding a sheet of A4 paper into as many slips as is convenient and writing new words and phrases on them and throwing them into a nice tin box that held milseáin um Nollaig. When I have long forgotten about them I take down an boiscín deas to dust it and check what is in it and lo and behold what do I find but little gems like the following:

The difference between three verbs that sound or look similar: tuil, tuill, and toill.

Tuil is a verb, transitive and intransitive, meaning flood or fill to overflowing
Tuill is a verb, transitive, meaning earn or deserve
and
Toill is an intransitive verb meaning fit or find room and it is followed by i or ar.
Example: "Toilleann galún sa bhuicéad sin" = a gallon fits in that bucket / that bucket holds a gallon.

There are dozens more slips in the box I have opened just now -- many of them obscene. Dúnfaidh mé arís é.

A word of warning: some of those words are so seldom used now that they would only be recognised in ordinary speech in a few of their forms not all. The computer can spin out all the grammatical forms that a particular Irish verb root may offer but people speaking Irish today may only know of a limited number of such forms. For example "tuil" is well-known as a noun "tuile" and its plurals "tuilteacha" or "tuilte" and not at all as a verb.

"Tuill" is used in such phrases as "Bhí sé tuillte agat" (You deserved / earned it, both good and bad senses)

"Toill" is hardly known at all now except in the rarified halls of academia where science is taught through Irish.

Learners should beware of selecting a verb root and constructing sentences mechanically without checking first that the living Irish language of today actually expresses the idea in the same way. I have given the example elsewhere on this forum of "uachtar reoite" versus "uachtar oighir". You will find the real Irish in the pub and on the pillow. (And the place for you to speak it is cois cliabháin.) Check before you use what you find in the dictionary. If in doubt post a question here on www.daltai.com

The safest thing to do is immerse yourself in good Irish, written and spoken, and learn sentences, poems, songs, seanfhocail, agus araile by heart. Then you will have templates to follow.

Slán libh go léir agus guím sonas oraibh.

ó donaill

or

briathar na gaeilge - the green verb book - both 30-40 pages

Why not consult "An Foclóir Beag" as well where the words are explained in Irish? (Dá fheabhas é níl sé ró-chuimsitheach. An bhfuiltear ag cur leis an bhfoclóir úd fós?)

"An Foclóir Beag" is not for complete beginners, however, but it is a help as regards working within the language itself. Most learners can access Irish through English only - which is one of the reasons why I find the opinions of people coming from a non-English frame of reference interesting.

Yes, Irish learning material is scant in other languages than English and Irish itself... English being currently the only language that I can use for the purpose. Sometimes it really complicates things, even though it makes a good lingua franca in discussion, it tends to be an "extra hop" in translation, and often hasn't got accurately matching words or idioms to work with.

I use AFB with irishdictionary.ie and focal.ie... AFB has by far the most sophisticated verb conjugation system of the three, as it knows much more verbs and recognizes them by conjugated forms. It describes the words a little bit, and gives synonyms - you often need to hunt down a synonym or two to get anything useful out of the translating dictionaries.

I am sorry Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg but I cannot agree with you. Evans is held in the highest regard when it comes to Welsh dictionaries by most people.

"You don't want a dictionary, you want a wordlist"

Obviously you don't know what the hell you are talking about because the first dictionaries were nothing but word lists. You may have a developed technical knowledge of language, but it is clear you don't know your history.

I recommend reading up on a few things before you give such comments in the future.

The very heart of a bilingual dictionary is the relationship and interaction between two languages. If it cannot show the interaction between words and meanings, then it is simply not a real bilingual dictionary. Rather, it is a unidirectional dictionary attempting to be more than it is.

And while it is true that giving examples that illustrate special meanings and instances aids in the understanding of an entry, you cannot claim that it makes it better. You can only claim that it makes it better for you personally. To make a claim for others is a slippery slope.

You cannot tell me that:

deifir, ~(gs.~, pl. -fre). Hurry. Níl a dheifir air, he is in no hurry.

Is any better than just:

deirfir, (n. f2) hurry

This adds no better quality or clearity of meaning in my book. I don't care what you say, all it did was waste space and cost money for the makers of this entry.

And to address:

"I think the originator of this query is making a common mistake in regarding one language [in this case English] as a kind of template against which another language [Irish] should be able to fit. This is treating translation as if it were a decoding process."

Why not?

It can be done with every other language in the world, why not Irish? What makes Irish so special? I can find this for Spanish, Russian, Hebrew, Hindi...and many other dictionaries in my local bookstore. What is so magical about Irish that English cannot begin to fathom the meanings and depth of Irish?

And for the record...yes, that is exactly what Irish is. It is the encoding, transmission, and decoding of meanings. Irish like all language, is nothing more than a verbal code.

O...thanks, I will look for these books.

(Message edited by do_chinniúint on March 29, 2009)

Obviously you don't know what the hell you are talking about because the first dictionaries were nothing but word lists.

And the first stoves were wood-burning. Guess what? The world has moved on since then.

You cannot tell me that:

deifir, ~(gs.~, pl. -fre). Hurry. Níl a dheifir air, he is in no hurry.

Is any better than just:

deirfir, (n. f2) hurry

That is, in fact, exactly what I am telling you. It such an obvious claim, it's hard to believe I'm even being called on to defend it, but here goes:

Say you want to say, "I'm in a hurry" in Irish. You look at your glorified glossary and it tells you that "hurry" is deifir. So you naïvely calque the English and end up with "Tá mé i ndeifir"--which might yet be understood in context, but is far from idiomatic.

But maybe you've a little more experience with Irish than that. You've learned, for instance, that when you want to say "I'm in a bad mood", the literal idiom is "A bad mood is on me." So by analogy, you figure a hurry is not something you are "in" but something that is "on you", too. So you go with "Tá deifir orm" instead.

As it turns out, you're correct in your assumption. But as a learner, you have no real way of knowing this. You might use your sentence with a fluent speaker and be understood, but, then again, the same speaker might've understood "Tá mé i ndeifir" because (like all Irish speakers), they're fluent in English and familiar with the kind of mistakes English-speakers make when they try to speak Irish.

On the other hand, if your dictionary (like mine), helpfully tells you in the body of the entry that "to be in a hurry" is deifir a bheith ort, then all doubt is banished. You can say "Tá deifir orm" without the slightest fear of being misunderstood or looking the fool because you've treated Irish as a mere cipher of English rather than a unique linguistic system with its own quirks and idioms.

Now if you, like me, are lucky enough to own the The Welsh Academy English-Welsh dictionary, then when you look up "hurry", you'll find not only the gloss brys, hast but the phrase "in a hurry" with the Welsh equivalents ar frys, ar ffrwst, ar hast, etc. (In this case, if you had followed the analogy of "a bad mood is on me", you would've been in the weeds.) But what you have is Meurig Evans (either Y Geiriadur Mawr or a condensed version), all you'd get is the gloss.

If that's enough for you, you're welcome to it. The rest of us will go on cooking with gas.

I do not have the Welsh Academy English-Welsh Dictionary. I use a different one to be honest, but from your description it sounds like the Welsh Academy English-Welsh Dictionary is doing exactly the same sort of thing that FGB is trying to. In an attempt to create an "all inclusive" dictionary, what they have done is given the entry with as many possible utterances as possible.

But in my mind this doesn't make it a better dictionary, it just makes it a bigger dictionary. A bigger dictionary that has greater potential for causing confusion for those with not enough skill to understand the many entries that are meant for native / fluent speakers of the language.

And this is my problem. FGB has the potential of being the best of the Irish dictionaries because of it coverage of words in terms of number of words for the Irish language. However, in its attempt to be the most detailed that it could be, they have created booby-traps for less than proficient speakers who are going to need the use of this book more than the native / fluent speakers.

That's what I am getting at. I do not have a problem with this, I really don't. What I was originally asking, is are there Irish dictionaries that don't do this. The reason I want them is frankly, I don't think an "all inclusive" dictionary is necessary or as helpful to learners.

I know that I am not the only person out there who goes on those goose chases. An abridged version is still just as good, and why do I say this? We have been using them since the beginning, so they have to be doing some good for some people.

"The world has moved on since then."

The modern dictionary, as we know and use it today regardless of its function, came about in the Middle Ages. So to say we have moved on since then, well...that might be stretching it a little. 500 years is hardly a "moving" pace.

But given that the human race has been continually using the "word list" format as you called it for around 5,000 years now. I would say that the current format, and the one you seem to approve of, has not really proven it the superior. If it is still in use in the year 7000 CE I will happily apologize and retract my statement. ;-)

Also, I feel that you may be projecting your outside knowledge of the Irish language. The dictionary did not give you the inner workings of the language. You picked them up from another source, and then you were able to use this wisdom to aid you in the understanding of the meaning.

You said:

"You do not want a dictionary, you want a word list."

Maybe I do, but if I am guilty of wanting a word list, then you are guilty of wanting a grammar book with a very good glossary.

And I must confess, as it is 0215 here, you have made my morning, this is the second "cooking with gas" reference in terms of modernism I have heard in the past 24 hours...

I will tell you the same thing I that I told them:

Sure you can cook it with gas, but that will never give it the taste we know and love that comes from a wood fire. Just because it is modern doesn't make it better. Modern is a word we use to describe something that hasn't proven itself worthy to be tradition. ;-)

(Message edited by do_chinniúint on March 29, 2009)

quote:

Obviously you don't know what the hell you are talking about...

Manna an lae: more decorum in the forum.

Cuirigí Gaelainn ar sin anois!

Tuige nar 'úirt aonduine le Domhnaillín seo 'ainne gan bleid chainte a bhualadh ar an bhfeairín seo ag iarraidh ciall a chur air i dtaobh rud ar bith ar domhan? Is cur amú ama é, a Dhomhnaillín, seo é saoi na Gaeilge, na teangeolaíocht agus chuile ní faoin spéir. Tá sé teagtha dhá múnadh dhúinn :)

quote:

Cuirigí Gaelainn ar sin anois!

Tá a fhíor-fhios agat, a chara, dá gcuirfinn Gaelainn air, ní thuigfeadh ár gcara eolach ach cúpla focal de. Mar sin féin, táim leat.

Do chinniúint, it is not grammar the bigger dictionaries teach you, but usage. It helps you work out how differently each word is used from its English counterpart and when you need to substitute a different one instead.

It is clear that you have fallen into the pitfall of many beginners to assume that you can substitute word for word between languages. The reality is very different. Just because you don't appreciate the value of the bigger dictionaries, doesn't mean that the smaller ones are better. Work with what you are comfortable with for now, but one day you will look back and see how wrong you were.

Woodfires are great, but all the smaller dictionaries give you is a bundle of sticks. The bigger dictionaries give you hints as to where to put each piece of wood in the fireplace for maximum effect. And grammar books show you how to actually light the fire. Until you learn to adjust the flame by correct placement of the wood, you will simply burn the hell out of whatever you are trying to concoct.

A Bhreandáin, measaim go bhfuil an analach san sínte agat sa mhéid is féidir dul leis! Togha fir!

Tugaigí aird ar an méid a scríobh Peter ar ball a chairde. Tig mo dhuine anseo ó am go chéile d'aon aidhm le daoine a tharraingt chun freagra i ndiaidh a chéile, ar cheisteanna gan bonn. Is cur amú ama amach is amach é agus is cosúil nach mbíonn d'aidhm aige ach daoine a shú isteach as a gcineáltas (I'm always struggling with ...)ag iarraidh gach ní faoi ngrein a mhíniú dó.
Tá sé déanta aige go mion is go minic cheana. Is mearaí é.

A Breandán,

I have not yet said that one can substitute word for word in any language, nor have I said that I don't appreciate bigger dictionaries. And in none of my posts above did I say anything about them and grammar. Perhaps you misread what I was saying.

My comment about grammar was directed towards DBND. I was commenting on the fact that we look for different things in a dictionary, and that they, forgive me DBND I do not know your gender, have a very grammar driven mind. And because of their advanced technical knowledge of the language, they might be getting more from a dictionary than those with less knowledge.

I am more than aware that you cannot go word for word, and I never suggested you could. What I was saying is that I think it is possible to trim the fat from FGB and dictionaries like it and still have a good dictionary because it is being done for other languages.

Now I am not dogging FGB, I'll say it again, I really like it, however...I have a problem with a lot of the entries because I don't really see them as being helpful.

For a lot of the entries, they don't really tell a person anything special about the language, rather they are just examples.

For example,

Page 162

bunfhréamh, f. (gs. -éimhe, pl. ~acha). 1. Taproot. 2. (of person) Founder. ~ teaghlaigh, founder of the family.

2. (of person) Founder. ~ teaghlaigh, founder of the family

Really? Are you serious? Was this really necessary?

Now this is an actual entry in FGB. Tell me how this helped you? Tell me how this, and this is just one of thousands like it in this book, gives you new insight into the Irish language?

Any person who is just beginning could have done this without having seen it in FGB. All this entry did is take up space. This is what I think could be cleaned up a little.

bunfhréamh, f. (gs. -éimhe, pl. ~acha). 1. Taproot. 2. (of person) Founder.

Now doesn't this tell the average person the same information as the first entry without the questionably helpful addition.

(Message edited by do_chinniúint on March 29, 2009)

Go raibh maith agat, a Sheosaimh, as an rabhadh, cé go bhfuil a fhios agam cheana féin cad é an saghas fir atá ann. (Go raibh maith agat leis, a Pheadair, ach más mian leat go dtuigfinn gach ní atá á scriobh agat, tá ort é a chur i bhfocail ná fuil chomh hornáideach sin. T'réis an tsaoil níl ionam ach tosaitheoir.) Mar sin féin ní mheasaim go bhfuil aon dochar ann iarraidh amháin a thabhairt de mheon macánta ar an cheist d'fhreagairt. D'ainneoin mo chroí chiniciúil bíonn dóchas go deas agam go dtiocfadh an lá dá gheobhad freagra uaidh ná beidh ainbhiosach nó maslaitheach. Cad atá le rá agam ach amháin gur aislingeach mé--mura amhlaidh an cás cad'na thaobh go mbeinn ag foghlaim Gaelainne?

Do chinniúint, if there is too much "fat" in FGB, try Foclóir Póca. It has fewer examples but enough to clarify most distinctions of nuance for beginners. FGB is a bit heavy to carry around so I keep Foclóir Póca in my bag until I can get home and check things properly in FGB.

Personally, I have always found the traditional Welsh dictionaries inadequate and not worthy of the name dictionary, they were just glosses. Fortunately, there are now better Welsh dictionaries with many more examples and therefore MUCH MORE useful, such as The Pocket Modern Welsh Dictionary edited by Gareth King.

For learners, EVERY EXAMPLE IS USEFUL, even the ones that confirm what you think you already know. In fact, the less grammatically minded you are, the better it is to have ready made examples.

FGB doesn't need changing; you just need to learn to ignore the bits that don't apply to you at the time.

Hmm...

"Personally, I have always found the traditional Welsh dictionaries inadequate and not worthy of the name dictionary, they were just glosses."

This is the part of the problem I was having with DBND's response. This is your opinion of this type of format. And there is nothing wrong with this opinion, please do not take that as I am saying it is wrong or anything like that. But just because you personally do not like it does not make this format any less valuable or useful.

What makes the new Welsh dictionaries better? Is it really because they have examples? Or are they just in a format that fits better with you?

And before you think there is a difference between glossary and dictionary, it might help to know the story of the glossary. Glossaries are dictionaries! In fact, glossaries were created for the specific purpose of multilingual communication. Something that even modern day dictionaries are not.

And while the word is relatively new, having come around just before the word dictionary, thank you France...the format of a gloss, the word for word equivalency in a word list format has been around for thousands of years filling the same shoes.

Glossaries and not dictionaries were the tool used for multilingual communication in the past from Egypt to the Royals of Western Europe.

The dictionary, as we know it and use it today was a French creation. They wanted to use the idea of a glossary to aid in their understanding and definition of their own language. And thus, shortly after the modern dictionary was born.

I willing to accept that people prefer this type of dictionary for now...but I reserve the right to complain later ;-)

However, as Aonghus once pointed out, and I have to agree with this, dictionaries should be for word reference only. It is not a very good source to go to for grammar or even for usage because the examples given are only good in thegiven contexts that they were taken from.

But please understand, I wasn't suggesting FGB be changed at all. I am actually looking at all the future dictionaries of Irish. And yes, I believe there will be more like it.

I have published books also, granted nothing to do with Irish, but I know that it is very difficult to do in an expensive world.

One of Irish's biggest hurdles is that a lot of people who can do wonderful things to help the language are not doing anything because they do not want to spend their time and more importantly their money on this minority language. Perhaps, and this is a big perhaps, by trimming the fat a little, the price wouldn't be too high for them to attempt. The problem is that they need to see that it can be done, before they are willing to try themselves.

If anybody really is in such a tither as that about the expense, I can recommend the Collins Gem as a nice starter dictionary. Widely available in the US, cheap (less than $10) and bilingual; only drawback is the print's a bit small.

Frankly I doubt anybody is, though; as investments go, a $30 dictionary pales in comparison to a couple hundred hours of your life, and I think most would-be learners understand that.

Hello Abigail, it has been a while...

Collin's Gem is more along the lines of what I would like to see. Yes, there are examples and all that...but they are kept to a minimum.

However, Collin's Gem has is a little thin in terms of word coverage for Irish. That is my biggest complaint about it. For most of my needs, it is perfect and the one I like to use. But when I see Irish on the web, I often encounter words that are not there. Usually I assume it is either a dialect thing, or maybe a modern slang term.

I would love to see Collin's Gem expanded to include the number of words covered by FGB. I really think it is possible.