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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2009 (March- April) » Archive through March 14, 2009 » Irish, the Gaeltacht and the Census: Perceptions and Reality « Previous Next »

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Danny2007
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Username: Danny2007

Post Number: 250
Registered: 12-2007


Posted on Monday, March 02, 2009 - 02:33 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Is Irish still widely spoken in the Gaeltacht? How many people speak it habitually outside of school?
A close look at 2006 Census data at a local [Electoral Division] level can provide the answer with a reasonable degree of accuracy.

(So as not to completely bog people down with statistics, I've provided a SUMMARY. Those who want to read on and check out the raw numbers are welcome to do so.

There is also a TABLE OF CONTENTS for those who just want to focus in on specific data or regions.)

The Census of 2006 differed from all previous censuses in terms of the Irish language question in that it made a distinction between those who speak Irish daily within the education system only and those who use it outside of school. For the first time ever, it allowed for more than one box to be ticked in the frequency part of the question (which was first introduced in the Census of 1996). In other words, it now gives us a solid idea of just how many people still speak Irish on a regular basis. The best way to do this is to look at how many people speak Irish daily outside of the education system. What percentage of the population in each Gaeltacht District do so?

The results will be covered in detail in the post below.

Over the past few weeks, I've been piecing together information relating to the use of Irish in the Gaeltacht. Bit by bit. Not based on conjecture. Not based on bias. But based on the very information provided by Irish people themselves. The data from the census forms the basis of this essay.

I would be remiss if I didn't mention the excellent research and analysis undertaken by people such as Donncha Ó hÉallaithe in Foinse and elsewhere. Or the work of the team led by Conchúr Ó Giollagáin and Seosamh Mac Donnacha from NUI who were behind the Comprehensive Linguistic Study of the use of Irish in the Gaeltacht. Released in 2007, it was the result of two years of research and is the most detailed sociolinguistic study of the Gaeltacht ever.

The difference between my own 'research' and that of Mr. Ó hÉallaithe is that he has based his figures around the number of 'daily Irish speakers' and Irish speaking households with school age children receiving the SLG (Irish Speaking Scheme) grant in each Electoral District in the Gaeltacht. The frequency and context with which people actually speak Irish is not taken into consideration.

As far as the Linguistic Study is concerned, the census data in the report is based on 2002 figures which make no distinction between those who use Irish daily in school and those who speak it outside of the classroom.

The information needed to ascertain the number of daily speakers is freely available. It's just a matter of seeking it out.

The entire Irish Language Volume of the 2006 Census is available HERE. (CSO - Central Statistics Office Ireland - Central Statistics Office, Skehard Road, Cork).
http://www.cso.ie/Census/census2006_volume9.htm

One only need look at the Small Area Population Statistics (SAPS) to find census data at a Electoral Division level.
http://beyond2020.cso.ie/censusasp/saps/Pages/Select_Theme_Table6_Live.asp

(For the purposes of this essay, HABITUAL SPEAKER is defined as someone who speaks Irish daily outside of the education system.)

Summary

- Habitual Irish speakers make up 25% of total Gaeltacht population

- Habitual Irish speakers make up the majority of residents in only 22 of 155 District Electoral Divisions (DEDs) in the Gaeltacht

- 35% of Irish speakers resident in the Gaeltacht are habitual speakers

- 22,515 habitual Irish speakers in Gaeltacht. Circa 72,000 in State as a whole.

- Approximately 20,000 people live in DEDs where habitual speakers make up the majority of the population. This is the fíor-ghaeltacht. [historically defined as 80%+....my definition is 50%+]

- Habitual speakers make up circa 62% of inhabitants in these areas collectively (22 EDs)

- Approximately 10,000 people live in DEDs where between 30-50% of inhabitants are habitual speakers. This is the breac-ghaeltacht. [my definition]

- Habitual speakers make up approx. 33% in these areas collectively (15 EDs)

- Population levels outside of Galway suburbs remained remarkably stable between 2002 & 2006

- Percentage of daily speakers (and sheer total) largely stable in the Gaeltacht as a whole

- Largest and most vibrant Gaeltacht in the country is in south Conamara, comprising 13 contiguous Electoral Divisions (and Árainn) with a population of about 12,000. Over 80% speak Irish daily. About 64% of inhabitants speak it habitually outside of school.

- Strongest District in the country in terms of % of habitual speakers is 'Sailearna' (An Cnoc, Cois Fharraige) in Conamara. 71.7%.

- Evidence that habitual Irish use amongst 3-4 years age group is significantly higher than other child & adolescent age groups in the Gaeltacht.

- Mayo Gaeltacht has all but collapsed. Revision of borders urgently needed as habitual Irish speakers make up only 12% of the overall population there.

- Resurgence of Irish usage amongst 10-14 year olds in Waterford Gaeltacht (An Rinn)

- Evidence of almost total lack of young, habitual speakers in central Donegal Gaeltacht (An Ghaeltacht Láir).
=========================================================

TABLE OF CONTENTS

1. Irish Speakers and the 2006 Census:
- Irish Language usage in the State as a whole
- Recap

- Irish Language usage in the Gaeltacht specifically
- Recap

2. The Gaeltacht:
- Intro
- What are the proposed Category 'A, B and C' Gaeltachtaí?

- The Gaeltacht as historically defined vs. modern realities
- Comparing Census 2002 data w/ Census 2006
- The fíor-ghaeltacht/Category 'A' EDs as outlined in the Sociolinguistic Report

3. Fíor-ghaeltacht Electoral Divisions:
- Gaeltacht na Gaillimhe (13 EDs)
- Gaeltacht Dhún na nGall (4 EDs)
- Gaeltacht Chiarraí (5 EDs)
- Gaeltacht Mhaigh Eo (1 ED)
- Recap
- Conclusions

4. Breac-ghaeltacht Electoral Divisions:
- Gaeltacht na Gaillimhe (4 EDs)
- Gaeltacht Dhún na nGall (6 EDs)
- Gaeltacht Chiarraí (1 ED)
- Gaeltacht Mhaigh Eo (2 EDs)
- Gaeltacht Chorcaí (4 EDs)
- Gaeltacht Phort Lairge (1 ED)
- Gaeltacht na Mí (1 ED)
- Recap
- Conclusions

5. MAP only showing DEDs where 30%+ of residents are habitual speakers
http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/5766/gaeltacht2006habitualsp.jpg

6. Gaeltacht Regions & Communities (see list near bottom of thread)

7. Notable communities with daily usage under 30%

8. Raw Numbers

- Daily speakers of Irish outside the education system in the Gaeltacht, as a percentage of relevant age group total

- Daily speakers of Irish outside the education system as a percentage of total population in each Gaeltacht area (excluding 'not stated')

- Daily speakers of Irish outside the education system, as a percentage of relevant age group total (excluding 'not stated'), based on each County with a Gaeltacht

All the information as listed in the Table of Contents can be found here:

http://www.politics.ie/culture-community/49632-irish-gaeltacht-census-perception s-reality.html

When writing your messages, please use the same courtesy that you would show when speaking face-to-face with someone.
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Taig (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Monday, March 02, 2009 - 04:32 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Go raibh maith agat, Danny.

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Taig (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Thursday, March 05, 2009 - 01:59 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A breakdown of the 13,000 actual users of the language shows under 8% use Munster Irish compared with about 29% for Ulster and Connacht dominating with almost 2/3 of the speakers.
From what I have read the Caighdeán is about half-Munster and half-Connacht with negligible input from Ulster. Better to have based the Caighdeán on a pan-Connacht dialect. The over-representation of the Munster was pure politics.

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Abigail
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Username: Abigail

Post Number: 1039
Registered: 06-2006


Posted on Friday, March 06, 2009 - 04:47 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"From what I have read..."

Ní mé an mbeadh lámhleabhar an Chaighdeáin féin san áireamh sin agat? Maith dom an cheist ach is iomaí cancrán a shaighdeas faoin CO ar bhonn tuairimí daoine eile (ab fhéidir é a bheith léite dóibh féin acu siúd nó gan a bheith.)

Rud eile de, níor cheart é a mheas mar chomhréiteach idir trí chanúint bheo mar a dhéantar go minic. Bhí gnéithe eile ar a n-aire acu chomh maith, mar atá dílseacht don rialtacht, don tsimplíocht agus do ghnásanna stairiúla.

Tá fáilte roimh chuile cheartú!

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Danny2007
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Username: Danny2007

Post Number: 260
Registered: 12-2007


Posted on Friday, March 06, 2009 - 06:24 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

In my first lecture I pointed out that there were over 300,000 Irish speakers in Cork in 1851, and in Cork and Kerry together there were nearly half a million, -almost one third of the total number of Irish speakers. Had Irish been preserved, and had it spread to the rest of the country, I have little doubt that this large body of fairly uniform speech would have had a tremendous effect on the Irish in the rest of the country. Moreover, Cork and Kerry were in close touch with a literary tradition, and might well have provided a standard language for the country. As it is, Irish has declined in Cork almost more than anywhere else. Should the unexpected now happen and should Irish once more become the language of the country, we must expect the language of Galway to provide the basic Irish.


- Brian Ó Cuív, 1949
('Irish Dialects and Irish-Speaking Districts', Dublin Institute for Advanced Studies, Dublin, 1951 p.55)

quote:

A breakdown of the 13,000 actual users of the language shows under 8% use Munster Irish compared with about 29% for Ulster and Connacht dominating with almost 2/3 of the speakers.


Yes, the Fíor-ghaeltacht Electoral Divisions (#3 in the Table of Contents).

About 13,000 habitual speakers out of 20,000 inhabitants. All the EDs where the majority of the population are habitual speakers.

quote:

From what I have read the Caighdeán is about half-Munster and half-Connacht with negligible input from Ulster. Better to have based the Caighdeán on a pan-Connacht dialect. The over-representation of the Munster was pure politics.



Perhaps. We'd have to compare the Ulster and Munster gaeltachtaí as they were before the Standard was brought in. That's not easily done.

However, Ó Cuív provides the following figures.
(Irish Dialects and Irish-Speaking Districts, p. 94)

No. of Irish speakers in the Gaeltacht in 1946:
*fíor and breac

Kerry:

13,815 (fíor-ghaeltacht)
13,206 (breac)

Cork:

4,609 (fíor)
10,492 (breac)

Waterford:

2,776 (fíor)
5,491 (breac)

Clare:

1,454 (fíor)
10,524(breac)

Total = 22,654 in fiór-ghaeltacht, 39,713 breac
Munster Grand Total = 62,367

Donegal:

31,137 (fíor)
5,325 (breac)

Ulster Grand Total = 36,462

Galway:

35,386 (fíor)
25,086 (breac)

Mayo:

15,764 (fíor)
17,898 (breac)

Total = 51,150 fíor-ghaeltacht, 42,984 breac
Connacht Grand Total = 94,134

Gaeltacht:

Connacht: 94,134
Munster: 62,367
Ulster: 36,462

Overall Total = 192,963

Breakdown:

Connacht: 48.78% of Irish speakers in Gaeltacht
Munster: 32.32%
Ulster: 18.89%

Fíor vs breac breakdown by County and Province:

Galway = 58.5% fíor, 41.5% breac
Mayo = 46.8% fior, 52.% breac

Connacht: 54.3% fíor, 45.7% breac

Ulster/Donegal = 85.4% fíor, 14.6% breac


Kerry: 50.8% fíor, 49.2% breac
Cork: 30.5% fíor, 69.5% breac
Waterford: 33.6% fíor, 66.4% breac
Clare: 12.1% fíor, 87.9% breac

Munster: 36.3% fíor, 63.7% breac

Looking at these numbers, it is surprising that Ulster Irish was mostly passed over. Although the sheer number of Irish speakers in the Gaeltacht in Munster was significantly larger, they were spread out with smaller gaeltachtaí in Waterford and Clare in particular.

Whereas in Donegal, the vast majority of the Gaeltacht was considered fíor-ghaeltacht (85%!). It was more concentrated. And 80% of residents in these areas were Irish speakers. In Clare and Waterford, it was 52.8% and 54.4%, respectively. In breac-ghaeltachtaí, it was closer to 25%. Ó Cuív says the total number of Irish speakers in the Gaeltacht dropped 19% between 1936 and 1946.


How things change. The number of habitual speakers in the Munster fíor and breac-ghaeltachtaí is around 2,200. 1,200 Chorca Dhuibhne + about 500 Múscraí and 400 An Rinn.

Ulster is closer to 5,000 with another 9,500 or so in Connacht. 8,000 of these in south Conamara + Oileáin Árann.

That's around the 16,700 mentioned in my essay. Remember that this figure refers to those living in Electoral Divisions where habitual speakers make up at least 30% of the population.

Off the top of my head, the rough breakdown would be...

Connacht: 55%
Ulster: 30%
Munster: 15%

Remember that the total number of habitual speakers is 22,500 for all the Gaeltacht. It's good that around 75% live in areas where Irish is still fairly widely spoken. [30%+]





(Message edited by Danny2007 on March 06, 2009)

When writing your messages, please use the same courtesy that you would show when speaking face-to-face with someone.
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Taidhgín
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Username: Taidhgín

Post Number: 124
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Friday, March 06, 2009 - 06:58 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Cad is fiú an plé seo go léir? Tá's againn go bhfuil líon na gcainteoirí Gaeilge gan Bhéarla ag dul in éag agus go bhfuil líon na gcainteoirí Béarla le Gaeilge ag dul i méid go mór. Áit ar bith ar féidir timpeallacht Gaelach a chruthu -- sna scoileanna lán-Ghaeilge mar shampla -- labhraítear an teanga go díocasach. Dá gcuirfí chuige b'fhurasta méadú mór a dhéanamh ar áiteanna mar sin ach is ar éigean má tá an toil ag pobal mór an Bhéarla go ndéanfaí dul chun cinn suntasach in athbheochan na Gaeilge. Tá sí ar siúl ach go faichilleach ar fhaitíos go gcuirfí olc ar "lucht an chinsil" atá fós chomh gallda is a bhí ariamh. Santach freisin mar is léir ó chruachás na mbanc. Ach sin scéal eile.

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Danny2007
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Username: Danny2007

Post Number: 261
Registered: 12-2007


Posted on Friday, March 06, 2009 - 07:12 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Is that directed at anyone in particular, Taidhgín?

When writing your messages, please use the same courtesy that you would show when speaking face-to-face with someone.
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Bearn
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Username: Bearn

Post Number: 1060
Registered: 06-2007


Posted on Friday, March 06, 2009 - 10:40 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Danny,
I think personally that it is time you took a look at your 'strategy'. Like it or not, there are a great number of gaelgeoirí that are, for want of a better word, scum. For some reason, the language tends to attract them, perhaps like a dying body attracts maggots. There is no reasoning with them, as all they want is a fantasy.

If you want credibility, you will have to bite the bullet and sink considerable time into learning Irish. Once you can fight them in any sphere (spoken and written) in either language, you will be inoculated against the BS, as you will see their shortcomings.

I see on IGTF you've yet another thread locked, simply on the order, and I use order deliberately, of a regular. Having read the thread, I can see no reason for it, other than not having agreed with them. I also notice that one regular was being praised immensely (without grounds of course. I saw his pix on FB and I can tell you he oozes an ugly sort of arrogance). I had a thread locked for suggesting that we use Skype to speak to each other, but then on their official Skype night no one but me turned up...

Simply, you are wasting your time using logic when this is a topic simply bereft of the stuff. Many of the regulars here like Dennis know this, and that is why they prod people to learn.

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Danny2007
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Username: Danny2007

Post Number: 262
Registered: 12-2007


Posted on Friday, March 06, 2009 - 11:24 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Well you certainly don't mince your words, Bearn.

What makes you think those individuals will be more willing to discuss things in Irish?

What do you mean by 'regular' on IGTF? All I see is a mod randomly swooping in and saying: "I think this should end now.". Of course the thread didn't deserve to be locked. They rarely do.

I suppose it shows the precarious state Irish is still in when certain people adopt a defensive stance almost reflexively when the Gaeltacht is brought up.

I've never encountered Irish speakers who I would consider 'scum' and I hope I never do.

I should add that many people have thanked me for producing the 'essay'. It's just a minority who would rather try and shout me down.

When writing your messages, please use the same courtesy that you would show when speaking face-to-face with someone.
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Bearn
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Username: Bearn

Post Number: 1061
Registered: 06-2007


Posted on Saturday, March 07, 2009 - 05:14 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I don't know why they are so concerned about the Gaeltacht. They don't seem to care for, nor drink from the source.

I think they will slap you down continually, till you learn to leave them in peace. Irish is only a pastime; reality less fun.

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Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh
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Username: Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh

Post Number: 619
Registered: 09-2006


Posted on Saturday, March 07, 2009 - 01:00 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I suppose it shows the precarious state Irish is still in when certain people adopt a defensive stance almost reflexively when the Gaeltacht is brought up.

Mother of God, here we go yet again.

Danny, the clear answer is that you need to open your own forum somewhere where you can broadcast, in English, your 50-kilowatts of negativity 24/7/365.

Of course, that would deprive you of two things you apparently crave:

1. A captive audience of people to discourage

2. The chance to bleat about being a persecuted victim

It's as predictable as clockwork. You show up at a forum dedicated to the learning of this language, do your utmost to illustrate why it's a lost cause, complain bitterly when somebody actually posts something in the language the forum is dedicated to, and then, at last, you put on your poor, bullied martyr costume.

This has been going on for years now. Enough with the persecution complex. If you invested half as much time into learning Irish as you do in trolling forums like this to undermine it, you'd be fluent by now.

This is exquisitely annoying.

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Taidhgín
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Username: Taidhgín

Post Number: 125
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Saturday, March 07, 2009 - 01:52 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Tógaigí go bog é, a chairde. Take it easy, friends.

When you publish something such as a study of the Census Returns from the Gaeltacht under a title such as "Perceptions and Reality" you affect your readers. The effect the article had on me was depressing. My reaction was why dwell on the negative side of the diminishing numbers of monoglot and near-monoglot people who prefer to speak Irish in their every day lives within the confines of the Official Gaeltacht when there is so much that is uplifting and encouraging going on in the larger area of the country as a whole. Do we really want to confine the people of the Gaeltacht to Irish only and prevent them learning English?

I know many of the Gaeltacht areas very well. I visit them regularly and have worked in three different areas for long periods at a time. I have spent holidays at some time of my life in each one of them. I'm very much involved in the Irish language.

This site seeks to encourage and help people to learn and use Irish. My view would be that the good appealing stuff should be cultivated here on www.daltai.com and that the negative depressing hopeless stuff should be quietly left aside or published elsewhere. When it is all over for me and for those of us who are alive now what will be left of our endeavours? That we chronicled the death of the "bilingual Irish-dominant" communities and ignored the much larger and possibly more vibrant "bilingual English-dominant" community outside the confines of the farcical "borders" of the official Gaeltacht.

I acknowledge the importance of the Gaeltacht as a "foinse don Ghaeilge bheo" but "an Ghaeilge bheo" is smouldering away in many other parts of the country and getting stronger from Census to Census.

My own "perception" of the Gaeltacht at one time long ago was of a densely populated totally Irish-speaking region where one could become immersed in the language. The "reality" was an English-dominated sparsely populated area with large tracts of uninhabited bogland and mountain and small communities of old people living along the road between the mountain and the sea. Commercial life was conducted through English. Religious services were conducted through English in all but the largest areas.

I discovered that even the Irish speaking families were only Irish-speaking because of one or two monoglot Irish-speakers being still alive in their midst. As soon as Mamó or Daideo dies the television is King and that home is lost to Irish. The change-over occurs in two generations.

I find that very sad, depressing, discouraging and I don't like to dwell on it. The Gaeltacht by it's nature given it's location in the most inhospitable geographical terrain and it's consequent lack of employment is bound to be fragile and in danger of extinction these days. I don't wish for it and I hope it doesn't happen.

That was what I meant by "Cad is fiú an plé seo go léir". I was not attacking or seeking to put you down Danny2007 because I know you have displayed remarkable stamina and interest in going through the data. I hope you understand that.

The next sentence lays emphasis on my side of the situation "Tá's againn go bhfuil líon na gcainteoirí Gaeilge gan Bhéarla ag dul in éag agus go bhfuil líon na gcainteoirí Béarla le Gaeilge ag dul i méid go mór."

The rest of my comment wishes for more of an effort to be made elsewhere in the country to create Irish-speaking "nodes" such as na Gaelscoileanna which are well-supported throughout the country. There is a need for other such "neadracha Gaeilge" to be established throughout the country.

Finally I remarked that the Irish language movement had to keep a low profile lest the majority English-speaking population of Ireland turn against the language. I said "lucht an chinsil" the ascendancy class in Ireland were as gallda as ever. They were also "santach" greedy as we have discovered from recent bank scandals.

Your contribution, Danny2007, triggered off a response and I hope that it was relevant. I didn't mean it to be otherwise. I hope you would not wish me to remain silent having read your contribution line by line.

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Danny2007
Member
Username: Danny2007

Post Number: 263
Registered: 12-2007


Posted on Saturday, March 07, 2009 - 03:03 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh

quote:

1. A captive audience of people to discourage


My intention isn't to discourage. That's your perception and nothing more. I no more aim to discourage than Donncha Ó hÉallaithe does. Or Seosamh Mac Donnacha or Conchúr Ó Giollagáin from NUI.

quote:

2. The chance to bleat about being a persecuted victim


Did you actually see the thread on IGTF? Unless you did, you shouldn't comment. A perfectly reasonable discussion was going on about Irish and was closed down on a whim.

quote:

You show up at a forum dedicated to the learning of this language, do your utmost to illustrate why it's a lost cause


That's an outright lie. You are pushing your perceptions onto me and trying to pass them off as my own viewpoint. I have NEVER said learning Irish is a lost cause. Ever. I've never said Irish is doomed, as Abigail once claimed. You should retract that statement.

quote:

complain bitterly when somebody actually posts something in the language the forum is dedicated to


I've only ever complained when it became obvious a poster was using only Irish with me as a means of retribution. As you say, it's 'exquisitely annoying' when someone addresses you in a language you can't understand when they know fullwell that you can't carryon a lengthy discussion in said language. It's not unreasonable to complain about that. Especially when you politely ask them to switch to English so you can have a chance to respond effectively and they then carryon as before. It's not unreasonable to expect common courtesy. You make it seem like I complain when people speak Irish to one another for the purposes of communication and learning. Absurd.

I haven't complained about such a thing in this thread either, btw.

quote:

If you invested half as much time into learning Irish as you do in trolling forums like this to undermining it, you'd be fluent by now.


I'm not trolling. Posts about the Irish language in the Gaeltacht on a thread about the Irish language. That's trolling? Get real. Take a look in the archives Domhnall. Filled with threads which aren't specifically about speaking Irish (grammar etc) but which are directly related to the language.

quote:

This is exquisitely annoying.


I'm not trying to undermine Irish. If I didn't care about Irish I wouldn't have lived in the Gaeltacht. I wouldn't have attended Oideas Gael. I certainly wouldn't bother spending time on forums to bash a minority language. I think you're being oversensitive.

It's almost as if you're blaming me for the state of Irish in the Gaeltacht. Why shouldn't that be a fair topic for discussion? If not here, then where?

(Message edited by Danny2007 on March 07, 2009)

When writing your messages, please use the same courtesy that you would show when speaking face-to-face with someone.
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Danny2007
Member
Username: Danny2007

Post Number: 264
Registered: 12-2007


Posted on Saturday, March 07, 2009 - 03:26 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Taidhgín,

quote:

My reaction was why dwell on the negative side of the diminishing numbers of monoglot and near-monoglot people who prefer to speak Irish in their every day lives within the confines of the Official Gaeltacht when there is so much that is uplifting and encouraging going on in the larger area of the country as a whole. Do we really want to confine the people of the Gaeltacht to Irish only and prevent them learning English?


Are you referring to the later post regarding Irish in the Gaeltacht in 1946? I'm confused because there are no monoglots left. Not sure what the comment about 'preventing them learning English' is about.

It was just a response to the comment about the number of Munster Irish speakers compared with Connacht and Ulster.

quote:

the negative depressing hopeless stuff should be quietly left aside or published elsewhere.


Who said it was hopeless though, Taidhgín? Why would you seek to silence discussion or have the data published elsewhere? Where elsewhere!? At least Foinse doesn't shy away from it, thankfully.

I honestly don't understand the thinking behind this. "Let's put it quietly aside. Let's sweep it under the carpet."

quote:

When it is all over for me and for those of us who are alive now what will be left of our endeavours? That we chronicled the death of the "bilingual Irish-dominant" communities and ignored the much larger and possibly more vibrant "bilingual English-dominant" community outside the confines of the farcical "borders" of the official Gaeltacht.



In fairness, the essay was about the Gaeltacht specifically. Who said anything about death? You sound defeated. And how are the "bilingual English-dominant" communities outside the confines of the Gaeltacht more vibrant? The reality is that the % of habitual speakers in the Gaeltacht, warts and all, is much much higher than outside of it. According to the census data (which isn't infallible), 1.8% of the State population are habitual speakers. In the fíor-ghaeltacht EDs that I highlighted, it's closer to 65% of the population! No one is ignoring it. But the essay is about the Gaeltacht.

quote:

I acknowledge the importance of the Gaeltacht as a "foinse don Ghaeilge bheo" but "an Ghaeilge bheo" is smouldering away in many other parts of the country and getting stronger from Census to Census.


Is it? How can you tell when the 2006 census was the first with the 'daily outside the education system' option. The sheer number of Irish speakers in the census is rising, yes. As it the overall population of the Gaeltacht and the State.

quote:

My own "perception" of the Gaeltacht at one time long ago was of a densely populated totally Irish-speaking region where one could become immersed in the language. The "reality" was an English-dominated sparsely populated area with large tracts of uninhabited bogland and mountain


English-dominated? Are you referring to the present-day Gaeltacht? What about the core areas?

When writing your messages, please use the same courtesy that you would show when speaking face-to-face with someone.
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Danny2007
Member
Username: Danny2007

Post Number: 265
Registered: 12-2007


Posted on Saturday, March 07, 2009 - 03:26 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Cont'd

quote:

I discovered that even the Irish speaking families were only Irish-speaking because of one or two monoglot Irish-speakers being still alive in their midst. As soon as Mamó or Daideo dies the television is King and that home is lost to Irish. The change-over occurs in two generations.


And I'm being accused of pessimism? What about all the Irish speaking families that are still around? The days of the monoglot are long gone and yet these families remain. Irish is not being lost in most homes of the fíor-ghaeltacht.

quote:

That was what I meant by "Cad is fiú an plé seo go léir". I was not attacking or seeking to put you down Danny2007 because I know you have displayed remarkable stamina and interest in going through the data. I hope you understand that.


I do now. And thanks. I only asked if your post in Irish was directed at someone in particular because I didn't know who it was intended for. I have beginners Irish still so can't carry on extended conversations so thank you for summarising your comments.

quote:

I find that very sad, depressing, discouraging and I don't like to dwell on it. The Gaeltacht by it's nature given it's location in the most inhospitable geographical terrain and it's consequent lack of employment is bound to be fragile and in danger of extinction these days. I don't wish for it and I hope it doesn't happen.


Nor do I.

quote:

The rest of my comment wishes for more of an effort to be made elsewhere in the country to create Irish-speaking "nodes" such as na Gaelscoileanna which are well-supported throughout the country. There is a need for other such "neadracha Gaeilge" to be established throughout the country.


I agree. There seems to be a lack of Irish pre-schools (naonraí?) in the country. But there's something else but I can't remember the term now. Not pre-school but something earlier than that. Pre play-school or something? A place for tots (perhaps age 3-4) to play and engage with one another in Irish. I don't think naonraí is the term I'm thinking of.

quote:

Finally I remarked that the Irish language movement had to keep a low profile lest the majority English-speaking population of Ireland turn against the language. I said "lucht an chinsil" the ascendancy class in Ireland were as gallda as ever. They were also "santach" greedy as we have discovered from recent bank scandals.


Sometimes I feel the Irish language movement does the opposite. Rightly or wrongly, there's a fair amount of resentment towards the grants system, compulsory Irish. Even things like bilingual warnings on packs of cigarettes or Irish as an official EU language gets peoples backs up. It's unfortunate. There's a perception that Irish is sometimes used for greedy purposes. For grants and the like. I disagree.

quote:

Your contribution, Danny2007, triggered off a response and I hope that it was relevant. I didn't mean it to be otherwise. I hope you would not wish me to remain silent having read your contribution line by line.


It was and I appreciate you taking the time to respond. Even moreso since you were willing to summarise your response in English so that I could respond effectively.

When writing your messages, please use the same courtesy that you would show when speaking face-to-face with someone.
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Ormondo
Member
Username: Ormondo

Post Number: 258
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Saturday, March 07, 2009 - 04:35 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

OK, Danny2007, you've got the job!

(According to the motto: Perseverance pays.)

Is geal leis an bhfiach dubh a ghearrcach féin.

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Bearn
Member
Username: Bearn

Post Number: 1067
Registered: 06-2007


Posted on Sunday, March 08, 2009 - 09:20 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Danny,
let me say one more thing. I'm reading your thread on IGTF, and my opinion is that I agree with your view that they are hopelessly reactionary, but you are feeidng into that. Collectivly they need a whipping boy, and you sir are offering your ass for the job.

Anyway, statistics have their place, and their suggetion of a blog might not be a bad one -listen to the message even if the messanger is not to your liking!

As for using the langauge to exclude, that is disempowering you, but no one is responsible for ones empowerment but oneself, so learn it if you need to talk to people about the subject so badly

(Message edited by admin on March 11, 2009)

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Alexderfranke
Member
Username: Alexderfranke

Post Number: 15
Registered: 05-2008
Posted on Monday, March 09, 2009 - 08:16 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I think that we should not bother to look at the reality. I know both sides. German travel books often describe the state of Irish worse than it is. Official statements in the past looked at things too optimistically.The number of 1,8 millions of Irish speakers all over the island is simply rubbish! The amount of about 300.000 to 400.000 of people with a true ability in Irish and about 100.000 to 150.000 native or near-native speakers all over the island is realistic considering my own experiences.
On the other hand I have remarked an under-estimation of theis knowledge by quite fluent speakers.
If we want it or not, the figures considering the Gaeltacht are worrying. The figures mean that there might be either a high percentage of dormant competent Irish speakers or some persons might have overestimated their competence in Irish in the Gaeltacht, too.
After having read comments on an article about Irish-medium education in Dingle town I am not so sure of the complete extinction of the Gaeltacht areas with more habitual Irish speakers than the state's average. I have well noticed some hostility to resistent English speakers in Dingle. They have said something like that:"We are in the Gaeltacht. If you don't like Irish-medium education, leave our town or bring your children to a school outside the Gaeltacht!"
The image is not thoroughly negative. Among the well-educated people, there is a certain tradition to pass Irish on to the children to some extant outside the Gaeltacht. The percentage of little children with some knowledge of Irish is not as low as it was in the 19th century. This is the potential of the future. And about 9% had stated in another survey that they had used Irish in conversation(s) last week. There are well differences between areas outside the Gaeltacht. Who wonders, in Galway city we have the most of habitual or at least regular usage of Irish outside the Gaeltacht in the Republic. In order to make sure that this is not only due to Gaeltacht suburbs I have looked at the small-area figures near Galway train station in the city centre. And yes, the percentage of regular users of Irish here in the city centre is much higher than in other Irish cities as well! I think that Galway city and Conemara are of great importance for Irish. For if Irish declines in Conemara, that will certainly influence Galway city. If the presence of Irish declines in Galway city, some people of Conemara will be discouraged, too because Galway is their nearest city centre and so on...The counterpart of Northern Ireland is Derry, Belfast and the Donegal Gaeltacht. Perhaps it is the same with Dublin and the Irish speakers around the Meath Gaeltacht. Therefore the decline of Nunster Irish is surely due to the weak presence of Irish in the larger cities nearby. Therefore it is important that Irish speakers of the Gaeltacht and the cities work together. I can only congratulate Galway to have founded "Gaillimh le Gaeilge" and "Arus na nGael", the almost daily meeting point! And it works a bit. In Galway city you see regularly Irish or bilingual signs on shops and pubs. In "Arus na nGael", I have met people from the Gaeltacht which shows me that there is not general a hostility to urban Irish speakers. Of course, I suppose that the people from Galway city visit the Gaeltacht regularly, too.
For me one should conclude the following: We must do everything to maintain the fior-Ghaeltacht and to strengthen Irish again in the other Gaeltaacht areas. The old folkloristic traditions could play a great role. Furthermore education and public services have to be carried out in Irish only so that Gaeltacht inhabitants will be forced to know Irish. In this way the percentage of people knowing Irish at least will be kept so that it remains likely that a higher percentage of the population in the Gaeltacht will choose to speak Irish in their daily life than in other parts of Ireland. You cannot force anybody not to speak English in their social life. But the habitual Irish speakers can make pressure on the resistant English speakers and force them to learn some Irish. And one could support the migration of people from all over Ireland willing to live in an Irish-speaking environment into the Gaeltacht in order to enlarge and develope central Gaeltacht towns. This will again have positive influence to the villages around. I think that the Westbrits in mind will leave the Gaeltacht areas when they notice that they gain more and more hostility. There are certainly dormant habitual Irish speakers who until now do not have the opportunity to speak Irish daily or to move to the Gaeltacht.
It seems not unlikely to me that in future young people of Nunster will switch to the Connacht dialect if Munster Irish will continue on losing ground in comparison to Connacht Irish.. In Ulster Irish speakers have often regional pride in theis dialect as I have read.
Le meas, Alex

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Badhbh
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Username: Badhbh

Post Number: 8
Registered: 12-2008
Posted on Tuesday, March 10, 2009 - 01:00 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Well said Alex.

But I don't think a survey of the Ceannt Bus Station will tell you much about Irish in the city. If you are near the bus to Carraroe or the Islands you will hear a lot of Irish spoken. But near the bus to Clifden (for example, it will be English.Maybe a busy resturant or pub would give you a better picture.
I think businesses in Galway City make a good effort to promote Irish. Unlike most other Cities.

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Guevara
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Username: Guevara

Post Number: 23
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Tuesday, March 10, 2009 - 09:01 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Yes I agree there are a lot of dormant Irish speakers in the Gaeltacht ie those who can speak it well but for some reason don't- I think of Dingle where some 63 per cent can speak Irish but only 23 per cent are daily speakers or An Spidéal where 83 per cent claim to have Irish but 66 per cent are daily speakers. I think the language divide over Dingle is a brilliant thing. The people complaining over Irish medium education should have raised their children speaking Irish than they wouldn't have this problem. Also met a girl in An Cheathrú Rua at the weekend she was living there 7 years from Leeds originally she had no Irish her family moved there I thought to myself how ignorant not to learn the language. Now she was gorgeous but to be honest I have no respect for people like that.With Carn Tóchair in Derry deciding to turn from English to Irish, with Bóthar Seoige and a designated quater Ceathrú Gaeltachta in Belfast, a new Gaeltacht for Ballymun there is a great revival in certain Galltacht areas. I am highly optimistic that Irish will continue to prosper.

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Alexderfranke
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Username: Alexderfranke

Post Number: 16
Registered: 05-2008
Posted on Tuesday, March 10, 2009 - 12:02 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Oh I believe you have misunderstood the matter of the small-area results. The figures cover the persons living in this area, not the visitors. The question was how often these people speak Irish. Of course there are citizens who are originally from the Gaeltacht. But this has remarkable influence to the city. I have also met people who are originally from the city with fluent Irish. In a pub the whole staff speaks quite fluent Irish. When I asked the young service man in the pub(perhaps 18-25) how he acquired his fluency he answered in Irish:"Oh no, am not fluent." When I entered the pub he stated that he spoke a bit of Irish. In my opinion, a bit means that you have the essentials but get stuck when it comes to a conversation.
In Germany we know well such ignorance regarding language skills. There are Turkish people in Germany who do not speak much German although living there since many years. On Mallorca there are Germans living there since several years. On Mallorca in recent years the hostility against these people has increased. And they do not make German an official language. The Gaeltacht authorities should intend to wipe out English and abolish it as official language. Then it becomes impossible for many employed and all school-going persons not to learn Irish. The decided Irish speakers must show that they do not want reluctant Westbrits. Those who are hostile to Irish ought to move away to other parts of Ireland.
Beir bua, Alex

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Taidhgín
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Username: Taidhgín

Post Number: 128
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Tuesday, March 10, 2009 - 01:45 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Gently, Alex. Tóg bog é. The English-speakers and the Irish speakers of the Gaeltacht are of the one "fine" (family group). They might say "Tá smeadar gaoil eadrainn." (We are distant relations.) They live together in the same house.

To give a typical example:

Let us suppose old Páidín Mhicil Pháid and his wife -- both native Irish speakers and in their 80s -- can no longer manage the farm and need geriatric care. They ask their one son Maidhc Pháidín Mhicil to come home from England and take over the farm and look after them in their old age. He agrees. He is middle-aged himself and bilingual. His wife is English born and bred and is very doubtful about making a new life in Ireland never mind the Gaeltacht. Nevertheless she will try and agrees to help the old people. They have one unmarried son still living with them -- perhaps a Downs Syndrome young adult, reared in England, and now returning to his grandparents' home place. They have other grown-up children who are married and fending for themselves but likely to come and visit their parents in their new home. These young adults, although English born, cherish their Irish roots, playing traditional Irish music with Comhaltas and following GAA. They have never heard enough Irish to have learnt the language however. If they play at a session in the local pub and contribute to the craic everyone will speak English to them. Pubs, being commercial, welcome everybody.

Be assured of this, Alex, blood is thicker than water and Páidín Mhicil Pháid and his wife will do all in their power to make their son's wife and their grandson as happy as they possibly can. Not only that, their old neighbours who used speak nothing but Irish in their childhood will make every effort to welcome the new family into their community and will speak English to them as much as they possibly can lest they become unhappy and leave again. The priest will conduct bilingual ceremonies in the church knowing well that from one-third to half his congregation are in a a similar situation to the Micil Pháid family and have very little understanding of Irish.

Life and living are more important than language, Alex. I think Irish people are sensible enough and caring enough not to be carried away by any ideology that would cause discomfort to their neighbours.

I know that people may say "what about forcing Irish-speakers to speak English? Yes, but the point I'm making is that the "force" involved here is love, empathy, consideration, and concern for the other person.

The surprising thing is that such families pick up the Irish again in a generation or two and life continues on. The Gaeltacht community continues on coping as best it can with the consequences of the constant haemorrhage of its young people emigrating to foreign cities. The Irish language waxes and wanes in different Gaeltacht villages in response to various stimuli such as a good schoolteacher, an Irish College, an enthusiastic priest, a factory providing employment, a generous Government offering grants for better housing in the Gaeltacht etc. [I dread to think what effect the current recession will have.]

Any hint of compulsion or intolerance would wipe out the good-will that most Irish people have for the Irish language. Hence, I say: gently, gently is the way to go. Tógaimis bog é. Let's learn as much as we can of the language ourselves and use it as best we can when we can.

[I have not written this with a view to "attacking" anyone or criticising. I know the Gaeltacht however and I value life, love, friendship, goodwill, and peace. I enjoy reading the Daltaí Forums (Fora?) and find it easy to write about stuff that I know and have been thinking about for more than 50 years. I hope we can continue to discuss these issues without rancour.]

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Alexderfranke
Member
Username: Alexderfranke

Post Number: 17
Registered: 05-2008
Posted on Tuesday, March 10, 2009 - 02:27 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Picking up the example. I think the English-born wife has the duty to learn the language. The best way would have been to learn it from marriage anyway. I find it nothing more than understandable if the locals react in a hostile way on hostility or ignorance towards their traditions. If the wife begins to make fun of the Irish language or refuses to learn it, then the people are alright to refuse to accept her in their community. Then it will be better that they leave the Gaeltacht again after the old parents have died.There should be children with no or little English so that they have to be talked to in Irish. If I were neighbour I would immediately tell her of the next Irish course. Yes, I go further and say the local authority should make an Irish course obligatory for new citizens. The church services should be either in Irish or English only. And services in English should be available far less than in Irish.
I myself am very friendly and helpful if our own language is valued, let it be a Turkishman or a men from Low Saxonia. But I react very angry when I remark hostility. Nobody can be my friend who makes fun of my own country and language.

Slan go foill, Alex

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Danny2007
Member
Username: Danny2007

Post Number: 266
Registered: 12-2007


Posted on Tuesday, March 10, 2009 - 03:21 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Your enthusiasm is admirable Alex, but I agree with Taidhgín. All this talk about forcing people to learn Irish or suggesting people 'hostile' to Irish should move to other parts of the country...it's counterproductive. As is talk of 'West Brits' and 'wiping out' English in the Gaeltacht. Those kinds of sentiments just play into the hands of people who like to portray Irish speakers as fanatics. 'The mad gaeilgeoir' 'The Galeban' etc. It just reinforces the worst stereotypes which are usually unfair to begin with.

Let me ask you this: why should an Irish course be obligatory for new citizens when most *Irish people* don't speak the language? Even most Gaeltacht residents don't speak it on a regular basis.

If anything should be obligatory, it should be an English language exam for immigrants.

Slán go fóill, Alex.

(Message edited by Danny2007 on March 10, 2009)

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Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 2740
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Tuesday, March 10, 2009 - 03:37 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

In Ulster Irish speakers have often regional pride in theis dialect as I have read.



But many Ulster people claim to speak Ulster Irish while they just speak Standard Irish with a NI accent and sometimes some Ulster features in their speech. But it's not really Ulster Irish...

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Danny2007
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Username: Danny2007

Post Number: 267
Registered: 12-2007


Posted on Tuesday, March 10, 2009 - 05:59 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Imprison those who don't speak Gaeilg!!!!!!

;p

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Cainteoir (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Tuesday, March 10, 2009 - 07:03 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Including you? LOL

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James_murphy
Member
Username: James_murphy

Post Number: 223
Registered: 11-2005


Posted on Tuesday, March 10, 2009 - 07:54 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Yes, I go further and say the local authority should make an Irish course obligatory for new citizens.


Certainly for people who intend to live in a Gaedhealtacht.

quote:

All this talk about forcing people to learn Irish or suggesting people 'hostile' to Irish should move to other parts of the country...it's counterproductive. As is talk of 'West Brits' and 'wiping out' English in the Gaeltacht. Those kinds of sentiments just play into the hands of people who like to portray Irish speakers as fanatics. 'The mad gaeilgeoir' 'The Galeban' etc. It just reinforces the worst stereotypes which are usually unfair to begin with.


The people who brand Irish enthusiasts in those ways and choose to believe those stereotypes will always be hostile to the language.
I think they're a lost cause and treading softly in an attempt not to upset them is pointless and counter-productive.

Séamus Ó Murċaḋa

Go mBeannuiġe Dia Éire Naoṁṫa!

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Danny2007
Member
Username: Danny2007

Post Number: 268
Registered: 12-2007


Posted on Tuesday, March 10, 2009 - 09:38 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Certainly for people who intend to live in a Gaedhealtacht.


All the more reason to redraw the official Gaeltacht boundaries. I just hope Ó Cuív can do it before Fianna Fáil are booted out of government. lol
It's been six years since he announced his plans and there has been no change.

It's not reasonable to make new citizens take a language test if they're living in an area where Irish is rarely spoken, even if it's still technically part of the Gaeltacht. I don't think it's an effective method of language promotion, to say the least.

You mention 'new citizens'. What about non-Irish nationals? What about people already living in the Gaeltacht who only speak English?

quote:

The people who brand Irish enthusiasts in those ways and choose to believe those stereotypes will always be hostile to the language.
I think they're a lost cause and treading softly in an attempt not to upset them is pointless and counter-productive.


Do you believe requiring people to take an Irish test will benefit the language?

This is just it, all this talk about requiring language tests so people can live in a particular part of the country merely reinforces the stereotypes. This idea that the language one speaks is more important than personal freedom and freedom of choice. It doesn't sit well with me.

By all means let people continue to promote Irish, but making language the determining factor in whether someone can live in a particular region is quite backward, in my view.

But I suppose it's a moot point anyway since Alexderfranke's proposals will never be implemented. They'd do more harm to Irish than good.

When writing your messages, please use the same courtesy that you would show when speaking face-to-face with someone.
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Badhbh
Member
Username: Badhbh

Post Number: 9
Registered: 12-2008
Posted on Tuesday, March 10, 2009 - 10:27 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I believe you are totally wrong there Danny.
We need to protect the Gaeltacht from too many English speakers moving in. There is a language restriction on housing estates now and it's one step to protect Irish. If you have an influx of English into a community there will be pressure on Irish speakers to use English. If one English only speaking child goes to school what language will his peers speak to him. Not Irish.
Or holiday homes everywhere when the local man/woman can't get planning permission to build on his parents land.
Their isn't enough protection for the Gaeltachts.
We, Irish speakers, are a minority in the country already, we don't want to be a minority in our own community.

The Galltacht is big enough for those who only want English. If people want to move to the Gaeltacht and learn Irish and respect our culture then they are welcome.

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Alexderfranke
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Username: Alexderfranke

Post Number: 18
Registered: 05-2008
Posted on Wednesday, March 11, 2009 - 03:30 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Of couse I meant language courses for people mouving to the Gaeltacht. For people already living there they should introduce transitional reglements. In any case free Irish courses should be offered to every citizen in the Gaeltacht.
This is similar to Catalonia where there are people who came during the period of Franco where only Spanish was allowed. But now some areas become more and more monoglottal Catalan-speaking environments. No employed person gets by without Catalan today. Often free Catalan courses are offered.
Ar agaidh leis an nGaeilge!
Alex

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Alexderfranke
Member
Username: Alexderfranke

Post Number: 19
Registered: 05-2008
Posted on Wednesday, March 11, 2009 - 03:45 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I mean, of course, citizens moving to the Gaeltacht to be required to participate at Irish courses. For those who are already living there transitional reglements should be introduced.
Let´s have a look at Catalonia. There are people who came into Catalonia during the period of Franco when only Spanish was allowed in the public life. Now the community and the regional government are making pressure on everybody to learn Catalan. Of course, there are opponents of this. But Catalan has been gaining ground. Now no employed person gets by without Catalan as some areas become more and more monolingual environments. Things change!
Ar aghaidh leis an nGaeilge!
Alex

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Ailéin Ó Clúmháin (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Tuesday, March 10, 2009 - 09:27 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Haigh is mise Ailéin , tá súil agam go mbeidh mé in ann páirt a ghlacadh leis an phost seo roimhe i bhfad

is mise le meas

Ailéin

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Badhbh
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Username: Badhbh

Post Number: 10
Registered: 12-2008
Posted on Wednesday, March 11, 2009 - 09:24 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Tá súil 'am gur gearr go mbeidh tú cláraithe Ailéin. Fáilte Romhat.

Tá's 'ad gur féidir leat postáil anseo gan a bheith cláraithe freisin.

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Bearn
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Username: Bearn

Post Number: 1073
Registered: 06-2007


Posted on Wednesday, March 11, 2009 - 09:49 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Agus anois tríd an nGaeilg agus stopfaidh an snáithe. Cén fáth an dtuigeann sibh, a dhaoine uaisle?

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Abigail
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Username: Abigail

Post Number: 1041
Registered: 06-2006


Posted on Wednesday, March 11, 2009 - 10:02 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Cén fáth go stopfaí? Cead saor ag chuile dhuine a chuid smaointí a bhreacadh anseo ina rogha teanga.

(Message edited by Abigail on March 11, 2009)

Tá fáilte roimh chuile cheartú!

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Badhbh
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Username: Badhbh

Post Number: 11
Registered: 12-2008
Posted on Wednesday, March 11, 2009 - 01:43 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Bearn, I didn't know this thread was supposed to be English only. :-)

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James_murphy
Member
Username: James_murphy

Post Number: 224
Registered: 11-2005


Posted on Wednesday, March 11, 2009 - 04:55 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

It's not reasonable to make new citizens take a language test if they're living in an area where Irish is rarely spoken, even if it's still technically part of the Gaeltacht.


I believe the areas where Irish is rarely spoken, but still hanging on, are the ones most in need of protection.


quote:

all this talk about requiring language tests so people can live in a particular part of the country merely reinforces the stereotypes.


People are well aware that the Gaedhealtachtaí are Irish speaking areas and if they wish to live in one they should expect to have to learn the language just as they'd find it necessary to learn French if they intended to live in France. If this doesnt suit them then they have the rest of the country to choose from.
If this reinforces stereotypes held by Billy Wilson in Larne (or should it be 'London-Larne'?) or George O'Kelly-Mahon ("It's pronounced 'Mawn'!") from Dublin 4 who cares.

quote:

The Galltacht is big enough for those who only want English. If people want to move to the Gaeltacht and learn Irish and respect our culture then they are welcome.


Exactly.

Séamus Ó Murċaḋa

Go mBeannuiġe Dia Éire Naoṁṫa!

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Danny2007
Member
Username: Danny2007

Post Number: 270
Registered: 12-2007


Posted on Wednesday, March 11, 2009 - 05:33 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

We need to protect the Gaeltacht from too many English speakers moving in.


Presumably you mean monoglot-English speakers, since everyone living in the Gaeltacht speaks English already. Most use English more than Irish.

quote:

There is a language restriction on housing estates now and it's one step to protect Irish. If you have an influx of English into a community there will be pressure on Irish speakers to use English.


I'm in favour of planning restrictions. But my understanding is that a certain % are 'reserved' for Irish speakers. That's different than requiring language tests for those wishing to move to the Gaeltacht.

I ask again:
why should an Irish course be obligatory for new citizens when most *Irish people* don't speak the language? Even most Gaeltacht residents don't speak it on a regular basis. Is that fair and more importantly, will it benefit the language?

quote:

If one English only speaking child goes to school what language will his peers speak to him. Not Irish.


Unfortunately, that's usually the case already. And I don't think it's due to "outsiders" moving in.

quote:

Or holiday homes everywhere when the local man/woman can't get planning permission to build on his parents land.

I agree with you. The sheer number of holiday homes (especially in Donegal) is a scar on the land.

quote:

Their isn't enough protection for the Gaeltachts.
We, Irish speakers, are a minority in the country already, we don't want to be a minority in our own community.


What exactly do you propose? What would you like to see done? Are you suggesting people who only speak English and haven't learned Irish be barred from living in the Gaeltacht? A region with boundaries that are fifty years out of date?

Habitual speakers are already a minority in the Gaeltacht, Badhbh.

Alex,

quote:

I mean, of course, citizens moving to the Gaeltacht to be required to participate at Irish courses. For those who are already living there transitional reglements should be introduced.


How would this be regulated? What about people who already live in the Gaeltacht but refuse to take an Irish course? What happens to them? Are they evicted? And if they take a course but don't use Irish afterwards, what happens? How is it monitored?

James_murphy,

quote:

I believe the areas where Irish is rarely spoken, but still hanging on, are the ones most in need of protection.


Define 'still hanging on'.

quote:

People are well aware that the Gaedhealtachtaí are Irish speaking areas and if they wish to live in one they should expect to have to learn the language just as they'd find it necessary to learn French if they intended to live in France.


Except large swathes of the Gaeltacht aren't Irish speaking anymore. You can't really compare France with Ireland since the vast majority of people living in France are fluent in the French language. That's not the case with Irish in Ireland.

Why should Irish be a requirement when in many parts of the Gaeltacht, the locals (the 'natives') don't speak it themselves?

Have people learned nothing!? Compulsion is not the way to go. Why not focus on initiatives which actually have a chance of being implemented? Ones that might actually be successful.

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Trigger
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Username: Trigger

Post Number: 320
Registered: 10-2007


Posted on Thursday, March 12, 2009 - 02:25 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

I believe the areas where Irish is rarely spoken, but still hanging on, are the ones most in need of protection.



I agree even though Irish has died out in Gleann Cholm Cille, Irish is still a characteristic of the village. I also heard the language spoken the odd time, whereas counties like Sligo you would never hear it spoken.

Gaeilge go deo!

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James_murphy
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Username: James_murphy

Post Number: 225
Registered: 11-2005


Posted on Thursday, March 12, 2009 - 03:45 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Define 'still hanging on'.


Areas in which there has been a rapid decline in the daily use of Irish in the recent past but where there are still native speakers, albeit older ones, around keeping the local variety of the language alive.

quote:

You can't really compare France with Ireland


No but I was really comparing English speakers who want to settle in the Gaedhealtacht with those who settle in any other area where the local language is not English.

quote:

Except large swathes of the Gaeltacht aren't Irish speaking anymore.

Why should Irish be a requirement when in many parts of the Gaeltacht, the locals (the 'natives') don't speak it themselves?


Yes many locals don't habitually speak the language and that's the problem. English speakers who refuse to learn Irish moving in will only make it worse.
The common use of English by Gaedhealtacht inhabitants doesn't remove the necessity to ensure that newcomers to those areas can speak Irish, it increases it.

Séamus Ó Murċaḋa

Go mBeannuiġe Dia Éire Naoṁṫa!

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Danny2007
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Username: Danny2007

Post Number: 273
Registered: 12-2007


Posted on Thursday, March 12, 2009 - 04:35 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

And how do you propose that it be done? Imagine a policy where monoglot English speaking Irish citizens were prevented from living in a particular region of their own country because of language! You'd be asking for a court challenge and I'm sure the EU would have something to say about it as well.

Taidhgín has it right.

quote:

Life and living are more important than language, Alex. I think Irish people are sensible enough and caring enough not to be carried away by any ideology that would cause discomfort to their neighbours.



quote:

Any hint of compulsion or intolerance would wipe out the good-will that most Irish people have for the Irish language. Hence, I say: gently, gently is the way to go. Tógaimis bog é. Let's learn as much as we can of the language ourselves and use it as best we can when we can.



Ultimately, it's up to the people already living in the Gaeltacht to use the Irish they already have. Clearly language use (and the frequency with which it's used) lags far behind language ability. That's why, for example, 70% of Gaeltacht residents claim that they can speak Irish, but only 25% speak it habitually. (Census 2006)

Shifting the blame onto 'outsiders' and newcomers is a cop-out imo. Most Gaeltacht people can speak Irish, but most don't use it outside of school. Period.

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Bearn
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Username: Bearn

Post Number: 1078
Registered: 06-2007


Posted on Thursday, March 12, 2009 - 08:31 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Personally I think that the language is fucked in the Gaeltacht, due to both practical matters (being able to speak English, and needing to do so too) and acquisence (we'd better not offend our superiors).

The problem is that Irish people have had subservience bred into them and express both a mixture of embarresment and mockingness/jeeringness when thye see or hear someone standing up and saying what needs to be siad, followed predicably by someone shouting a comment along the lines of "sit down ya clown".

The fact is that a country that cannot run itself properly, and whose population seem to get pride out of collective and periodic self-immolation, could never have the vision to revive or even allow Irish in any sphere.

The Gael fell because his prehistoric politcal and social organisation was not suited to facing the modern state; the Famine arrived because of a medievil population numbering in the millions during the industrial age; and now we have a country run like how a 19th century town shopkeeper would do it. In each case Ireland is behind the times.

Years ago when myself (and others) said the Gaeltacht has to be moved out of Ireland, this was greeted with derision. Now moves are going in that direction, it is ever more clear that it's time is coming.

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James_murphy
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Username: James_murphy

Post Number: 226
Registered: 11-2005


Posted on Thursday, March 12, 2009 - 09:27 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

and acquisence (we'd better not offend our superiors).


I think many Irish people still haven't come to realise that they're in charge. What happens in our communities and country is in our hands but the feeling is still there that there are greater powers that make the decisions and we are powerless to challenge them.
It's one of the reason our piss-poor politicians and their wealthy elite controllers manage to run this country and do the things they do.
I see it in my own town - it, and the entire countryside around has been ravaged in recent years by so-called "Developers". No-one is happy with it but it goes ahead regardless because no-one feels there's anything they can do about it. The "people in charge" have made up their minds and that's that.

quote:

The problem is that Irish people have had subservience bred into them


Yes and why is it still the case in 2009?
What can be done?
One of the reasons I'm so passionate about the Irish language is because I believe it's at the core of these issues and their solution.
We can't ever have real respect for ourselves or from others as long as we are in the bizarre and pathetic state of being ignorant of our own language and heritage.

quote:

The Gael fell because his prehistoric politcal and social organisation was not suited to facing the modern state


Prehistoric? Overly conservative certainly.
Would our society have been so resistant to change had Ireland been allowed to form a centralised state and resist foreign invasion?
I've read that a lot of ancient customs, such as inauguration of leaders at ancient hilltop sites, were revived after the Norman invasion. It seems one of the ways the Gaels reacted to this pressure was to fall back on old, familiar traditions and see all change as foreign and hostile.

quote:

the Famine arrived because of a medievil population numbering in the millions during the industrial age


I don't want to get back into this "famine" discussion again but the living conditions of most Irish people and the economic state of country were not of their making. Also the size of our population need not have been a problem as the country even then produced more than enough food to support it.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record :) lack of pride and self-respect is the problem and regaining them is the answer.



P.S. We'll see a perfect example of the Irish people's ignorance of their heritage and lack of dignity when they celebrate "all things Irish" on the 17th by wearing lime-green "leprechaun hats" and getting drunk watching a "festival" influenced more by Mardi Gras than anything Irish.

Séamus Ó Murċaḋa

Go mBeannuiġe Dia Éire Naoṁṫa!

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Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh
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Username: Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh

Post Number: 620
Registered: 09-2006


Posted on Thursday, March 12, 2009 - 11:03 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

P.S. We'll see a perfect example of the Irish people's ignorance of their heritage and lack of dignity when they celebrate "all things Irish" on the 17th by wearing lime-green "leprechaun hats" and getting drunk watching a "festival" influenced more by Mardi Gras than anything Irish.

An dtarlaíonn sé seo in Éirinn? Síl mé go raibh an Plastic-Paddyness feiniméan Meiriceánach amháin! :)

(Message edited by Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh on March 12, 2009)

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Danny2007
Member
Username: Danny2007

Post Number: 276
Registered: 12-2007


Posted on Friday, March 13, 2009 - 12:23 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

"We may conceive and hope that the next generation will in tongue and heart and every way else become English; so as there will be no difference or distinction but the Irish sea betwixt us."

- Sir John Davies, from 'A Discovery of the True Causes Why Ireland Was Never Entirely Subdued', 1612 AD



quote:

"It would be a noble achievement to abolish the Irish language in this kingdom, so far at least as to oblige all the natives to speak only English on every occasion of business, in shops, markets, fairs, and other places of dealing. ...This would, in great measure, civilize the most barbrous among them, reconcile them to our customs and manner of living, and reduce great numbers to the national religion..."

- Jonathan Swift, 'Two Letters On Subjects Relative To the Improvement of Ireland' in Ireland in the Days of Dean Swift, 1727




quote:

"Every person who speaks Irish bears witness to the failure of centuries of cultural cleansing by the establishment in Ireland."

- Pádraig Ó Mianáin, 2004


When writing your messages, please use the same courtesy that you would show when speaking face-to-face with someone.
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Bearn
Member
Username: Bearn

Post Number: 1079
Registered: 06-2007


Posted on Friday, March 13, 2009 - 01:39 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"all the natives"

-Swift

And this by someone who is now called an 'Irishman'...

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Danny2007
Member
Username: Danny2007

Post Number: 277
Registered: 12-2007


Posted on Friday, March 13, 2009 - 03:44 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I know. Kevin Myers probably has a big poster of Swift in his bedroom.

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