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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2009 (March- April) » Archive through March 03, 2009 » Genitive Questions « Previous Next »

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James_murphy
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Username: James_murphy

Post Number: 211
Registered: 11-2005


Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 02:28 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

1.
(a)Handle of the man's door - Murlán dhoras an fhir.
(b)The man's door-handle - Murlán dorais an fhir.

I think I understand cases like these when the possessor is definite as above, but when it's indefinite I'm unsure:

(a)Handle of a man's door - Murlán dorais fhir? or, like the above - Murlán dhoras fir?
(b)A man's door-handle - Murlán dorais fir? (or fhir).

(Would the likes of "Doras-mhurlán" fir ever be used in a case like this?)



2.
Casúr briste can mean either "breaking hammer"(a hammer for breaking) or "broken hammer".
Is there anyway of avoiding ambiguity like this? For example Bris-chasúr/Briseadh-chasúr for "breaking hammer".
It's a pity the genitive isn't brisidh leaving briste for the p.p. :)



3.
Here's an example of a sentence I'd find very difficult to translate satisfactorily:

"His opinion of the pronunciation of the genitive of the word".

The best I could come up with is:

A thuairim fhuaimnighthe ghinidigh an fhocail.



Any assistance would be appreciated.

Séamus Ó Murċaḋa

Go mBeannuiġe Dia Éire Naoṁṫa!

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Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 2721
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 02:31 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A thuairim fá fhuaimniú ghinideach an fhocail.
It'd be more natural to say "his opinion about".

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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James_murphy
Member
Username: James_murphy

Post Number: 212
Registered: 11-2005


Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 05:07 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Lughaidh,
I should have realised it would be "...ghinideach an fhocail".
Thanks for that.

Séamus Ó Murċaḋa

Go mBeannuiġe Dia Éire Naoṁṫa!

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Abigail
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Username: Abigail

Post Number: 1037
Registered: 06-2006


Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 05:49 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

A thuairim fá fhuaimniú ghinideach an fhocail.
It'd be more natural to say "his opinion about".


Sílim go mbíonn tuairimí "ar" nó "de" de ghnáth.

(Message edited by abigail on February 23, 2009)

Tá fáilte roimh chuile cheartú!

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Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 2722
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 06:54 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Seidh, de réir an Dónallaigh. Ach is dóigh liom gur "fá" a d'úsáidfí in Ultaibh, sin an tuighe ar úsáid mé "fá" in m'abairt féin...

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 8125
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2009 - 06:07 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Sin an fadúdais aríst!

Táimse ar aon fhocail leat fá sin.

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Taidhgín
Member
Username: Taidhgín

Post Number: 116
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2009 - 02:53 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Freagróidh mé do cheisteanna, James:

(a)Handle of the man's door - Murlán doras an fhir. [Murlán dorais] but [Murlán doras an fhir]

Obviously "doras an fhir" is a definite doras yet there is no séimhiú / lenition. Why? DeNTaLS is why. DNTLS do not yield to séimhiú / lenition when they follow each other. In this case the "n" of "an" cannot put séimhiú / lenition on the "d" of "doras".

Why is "doras" not changed to the Tuiseal Ginideach? Because it is already locked into a Tuiseal Ginideach itself "doras an fhir". Irish -- as far as I know it -- regards "doras an fhir" as one word and hence only the last word of the sequence gets put in the TG. That is not to say that nuances of meaning cannot be created by putting one of the earlier words in a sequence in the TG. Foireann na Roinne Oideachais for example. The Staff of the Department of Education. On second thoughts that may just be an error of mine. Perhaps it should be "Foireann an Roinn Oideachais" Naaah. "Foireann na Roinne" is the unit here and Oideachais supplies the further information as to what Department is involved. Nothing is ever simple or absolute.

(b)The man's door-handle - Murlán dorais an fhir. In this case the "murlán" is off the door and may be all that remains of the man's house.

Murlán doras an fhir -- transfers the emphasis to the knob of the man's door which is still safely in place.

Incidentally, who has ever heard the word "murlán" spoken in any context? It seems to mean any rounded object like a knob or button. I have never heard it used. But then Irish was not -- until recently -- an urban language and the half-doors of the old cottages of my youth had not more than a latch and a "maide Éamainn" on them.

(a)Handle of a man's door - Murlán dorais fir: In this case the attention is directed more to the "murlán dorais" although the following word "fir" suggests there might be an alternative "murlán dorais mná" a woman's doorknob.


(b)A man's door-handle - Murlán dorais fir? (or fhir). No. Not "fhir".

(Would the likes of "Doras-mhurlán" fir ever be used in a case like this?)

As I have pointed out above even the word "murlán" itself is seldom used. If you look up the word "murlán" on www.focal.ie you may find uses for this word that none of us know of yet. "Dorasmhurlán" has not been used yet and while there is nothing wrong with it grammatically it doesn't appeal to me as a word. In a 100 year's time? Who knows?

I imagine "hanla an dorais" is the most commonly used word. There is also a word "boschrann" which is the "knocker".

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James_murphy
Member
Username: James_murphy

Post Number: 213
Registered: 11-2005


Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2009 - 05:04 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Go raibh míle maith agat, a Thaidhgín, as d'fhreagra.

quote:

(a)Handle of a man's door - Murlán dorais fir: In this case the attention is directed more to the "murlán dorais" although the following word "fir" suggests there might be an alternative "murlán dorais mná" a woman's doorknob.


(b)A man's door-handle - Murlán dorais fir? (or fhir). No. Not "fhir".


In the case of (a) above I was thinking of the indefinite "a man's door" as a unit just like the definite "the man's door".
i.e.
"[Murlán] [doras fir]"
"[Murlán] [doras an fhir]"
Thanks for clarifying that.

Séamus Ó Murċaḋa

Go mBeannuiġe Dia Éire Naoṁṫa!

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Taidhgín
Member
Username: Taidhgín

Post Number: 117
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2009 - 06:13 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Tá fáilte romhat.



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