Just wondering is there any difference in usage and frequency of usage between these two forms? go raibh maith agaibh....

Yahoo hits on '"tá mé" agus': 83,000
Yahoo hits on '"táim" agus': 68,900

(Insíodh dom go bhfuil algartam cuardaigh níos fearr chun críocha so ag Yahoo ná ag Google. Tá 'agus' ann chun amais ar théacsanna gan Gaelainn d'eisiú.)

Someone writes in English and someone writes back in Irish, typical.

Unregistered Guess, they both mean ''I am'' but ''Táim'' is Munster Irish, and ''tá mé'' in other dialects.

Agus an tríú duine goilliúnach ar an nGaeilg ar a údar féin is léir.

Go raibh maith agat as an bhfreagra, ach measaim ná rabhas soiléir go léir sa chéad theachtaireacht.. I was wondering more whether there are situations where one is preferable or are they completely interchangeable, and which dialects would use which more.

Mar a dúradh thuas níl pioc difir eatarthu ó thaobh brí de. Maidir le canúint, is le Muimhnigh is mó a airítear an fhoirm tháite - d'fhéadfadh blas foirmeálta bheith air scaití sna canúintí eile - ach is lándual do dhuine ar bith í, agus an fhoirm scartha mar an gcéanna. Bainim féin úsáid astu araon, cibé acu is túisce a ritheanns liom nó má mheasaim go gcuirfeadh ceann acu seachas a chéile slacht ar abairt liom.

Agus ceadaíonn an C.O. iad araon; tuigtear dom ó do chuid litrithe féin nach é sin ba chás duit, ach ina dhiaidh sin b'fhéidir nach miste é a lua.

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Someone writes in English and someone writes back in Irish, typical.

Bloody cheek! And in a forum for practicing the Irish language no less!

An bhfuil an chuid Gaelainne ann léite agat, a mhic? Níl inti ach míniú gairid ar na bun-toimhdí is bonn leis m'fhreagra; fiú gan é, is soiléir go hiomlán é an ciall atá leis.

A Thrigger, rinne tú do dhearmad anseo. Léigh an bhunteachtaireacht arís, agus léigh an freagra arís. Cuireadh ceist dátheangach agus tugadh uirthi freagra dátheangach. Céard is cás duit ar chor ar bith?

(Both the original post and the reply were bilingual - macaronic in fact. What is your problem?)

Fiú dá mb'aonteangach an freagra a thug Domhnaillín, deirim nach mbeadh tada cearr leis. Nuair a chuireann duine ceist dátheangach orm, glacaim leis go bhfuil sé nó sásta an dá theanga sin a labhairt liom. Freagraím é sa gcéad teanga, sa dara ceann nó sa dá theanga le chéile, de réir mar a thagann fonn orm. Freagraíodh sé mise mar an gcéanna (.i. de réir a thola féin) agus sin comhrá curtha ar bun againn. Sin an chaoi is nádúrtha ar fad deileáil leis an dátheangachas; ní léir dom cén fáth go gcáinfeá é, nó cén cur chuige a mholfása ina áit.

Seans go raibh sé beagánín trigger happy

Níl cuma ró-happy liomsa! Ach b'fhéidir ná fuil cluas ghéar do nuances na Béarla orm.

Domhnaillín I would like to apologize for that remark I made, I didn't take any notice and I just found it annoying when someone posted in English and got replies through Irish.

Sorry again a chara.

Technically speaking because the poster said “go raibh maith agaibh” it was bi-lingual. Anybody who has any interest in Irish knows that much. Or born in Ireland.
So I too, would think that his language was English. (From his second post it’s obvious that he speaks Irish well too.)
And I would also think it rude to answer him in Irish.
What if I was out walking and a tourist asks me in English for directions to Carna, and I go on and answer him in Irish. I’d probably get a deservedly rude answer in return.

Sea a Bhadbh. Ach this board is for the advancement and enjoyment of the Irish language. As the sign on the door says. If someone is asking about the finer point of semantics of a word in Irish, they are more than likely going to be able to cope with an answer in Irish.

But given your handle, maybe I've just missed some more irony?

---

badhbh [ainmfhocal baininscneach den dara díochlaonadh]
bandia cogaidh sna scéalta; neach scanrúil; bultúr.

A completely unscholarly unscientific response to the unregistered guest's query:

Sometimes it sounds better to use "táim" and sometimes "tá mé" should not be used as much as it is. Schools and teachers are the villains of the piece here as they blithely tell their students to write "tá" followed by "mé, tú, sé, sí, sinn/muid sibh siad" and that's all there's to it. It's the easy option.

Unfortunately, in my humble opinion, they are wrong. No fluent Irish speaker would say "tá mé" in ordinary speech unless speaking into a telephone during a hurricane. Since we all suffer from "I-itis" and this is one of the most often used persons and tenses of the verbs people still use the older combined forms Bím, Táim, Bhíos, Bheinn, & Bhinn. Perhaps in the future tense "Bead" is not used as often as "Beidh mé". "Cuirim braoinín den stuif crua sa tae!" Who ever heard a native speaker produce the bottle from its hiding place and say "Cuireann mé braoinín poitín sa tae."

"Tá mé" instead of "Táim" is one of the tells that you are a learner. Only for that you'd pass for a native. :-)

A Bhaidhbh, I've already responded to Trigger's unfounded charges of rudeness above (if you need a translation of the Irish, kindly request one) and he's accepted my explanation. So why are you trying to start a new argument?

A chairde, am I the only one here who's sick the death of being scolded for speaking Irish in one of the few corners of the world where I can reasonably expect other people to understand it and speak it back to me? I used to recommend Daltaí unconditionally to learners I met. But after having to fend off regular bouts of this sort of unnecessary policing, I'm decidedly more reticent to do so.

Domhnall,

I'm guessing, but I think Badhbh (based on her profile) is from Ireland. There is a strong, hard to shake off, taboo that to speak Irish in the presence of someone not fluent is somehow socially unacceptable and shockingly rude.

However, since Daltaí exists "chun an Ghaeilge a spreagadh" lean ort, agus mar a deir siad i gConamara f**k na begrudgers!

Perhaps I should add that that doesn't necessarily apply to the other persons "Táim" is not necessarily followed by "Táir" rather than "Tá tú" agus mar sin de. Always used are "Tá sé" - "Tá sí" - and "Tá sibh". Sometimes "Táid" is heard instead of "Tá siad". As for "Táimid" I think dialect takes over "Tá sinn" - "Tá muid" and even "Tá muinn" (? muidne)

I suspect everyone does as Abigail admits above: people use the "foirm tháite" (? synthetic form?) and the "foirm scartha" (separated form) at random and mix them up for effect. The availability of the two forms gives leeway in creating effect when speaking or writing.

I've no real idea what is said in the various dialects although I heard a Cois Fharraige man say "Bhís go maith" to a singer after a song had been sung.

Perhaps that wasn't such an easy question to answer after all. Serious students should check my responses against more reliable sources.

I always benefit from the Irish that is used here, especially when Irish is used responding to a beginner's question, even if that question is in English. The primary reason we're here is to learn Irish - even the name of this board states that we're learners. As a learner, I think it's best to leave it up to the more experienced members among us when they want to use Irish or not.

(I've always found it amusing that learners try to tell teachers how to teach)

We all know that if one of us learners doesn't understand something, they need to first TRY to understand the Irish, then simply ask for help and it's ALWAYS given.

Thank you Irish speakers for using Irish on this board as much as you do - you're doing us learners a big favor, even if some of us don't realize it at times.

Conas deirtear "scolded to death" as Gaeilge, le bhur dtoil?

Le meas, Mac Léinn

(Message edited by student on February 11, 2009)

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Conas deirtear "scolded to death" as Gaeilge, le bhur dtoil?

Ceist mhaith. Is fiú snáth dá cuid féin í!

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What if I was out walking and a tourist asks me in English for directions to Carna, and I go on and answer him in Irish.

What a swan-song that would be for the Irish language: perished in politeness!

This forum should hardly be the place to have to encounter gruff injunctions to use English - there is more than a sufficient supply of that elsewhere.

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Unfortunately, in my humble opinion, they are wrong. No fluent Irish speaker would say "tá mé" in ordinary speech unless speaking into a telephone during a hurricane.

Unless you mean only Munster speakers, I'm not convinced... for example, I've been reading through "Páipéir Bhána agus Páipéir Bhreaca" lately and Máirtín Ó Cadhain is using it left and right - agus má bhí sé maith go leor dósan agus do Chaitríona Pháidín...!

Is cuma cén teanga ina mbeannaítear duit, is fút féin roghatheanga do fhreagra. Diúltaím labhairt le daoine i mBéarla ar barr sléibhe, le taobh abhann in amanna, cibé cén áit is fhearr liom Gaeilg a labhairt is a chlos. Ní dhéanaim amhlaidh le barr drochbhéasa. Deirtear liom nach duine drochbhéasa mé agus ní dóigh liom gurb ea. Ní bhraithim gur le drochbhéas a bheannaítear dom i mBéarla. Cén fáth go mbraithfeadh éinne gur de bharr drochbhéasa nach bhfreagróinn i mBéarla, aon áit in Éirinn nó in aon áit ar domhan? Ní hionann Béarla a bheith ag duine agus a bheith, ar bhealach, ina Bhéarlóir. Tá mo shá Béarla agam, ach níl aon iachall orm a labhairt lá ar bith le duine ar bith. Is saorchead é, labhairt nó gan labhairt, in aon teanga, Béarla, nó Gaeilg, nó eile. Cén fáth go gcuirfinn iachall orm féin, Béarla nó Gaeilg, nó eile a labhairt le duine ar bith, áit ar bith, lá ar bith, nuair nach bhfuil dlí ina thaobh?

Níor cheanglaíodh an srian dofheicthe sin ag roinnt agaibh thuas faoi mo phus go fóill a chairde liom, agus coinneodsa ag bodhrú fúm is tharam i nGaeilg, nó i mBéarla, más rogha liom, a fhad is a bhogfas mo bhruasa chuige.

An duine eile, má bhraitheann sé gur drochbhéas gan labhairt ar ais le ceistneoir sa teanga a labhraíodh i dtosach, tá an rogha sin aige, labhairt ar ais mar sin sa teanga a céadlabhraíodh. Braithim féin gur cineál míleatachta an méid sin, ach fágaim faoin té a mheasann gur cheart a dhéanamh, a dhéanamh amhlaidh.

Feicfear ceann caol na dinge áfach, a luaithe a bhagróidh sé ar an duine eile nach gceapann gur gá cloí lena leagan amach seisean. Bím in amhras faoin muintir a leagfas róbhéim ar bhéasaí cinnte, ar iompar cinnte, ar éadach áirithe.

Sea, mhuis, is lú ná frí, máthair an oilc.

Is there a great deal of difference when speaking:

tá mé ~táime

táim ~táim

A vowel and a little difference in stress.

Hey, Domhnaillín, you never got back to me on whether my stress was wrong...I'm very stressed about it

In regard to the point that Bearn makes above about stress, is it possible that at times it's better to use one form over the other? That is, to make what is spoken more fluid, could a speaker, including a fluent one, choose tá mé instead of táim?

Example:

1. Tá mé anseo = In the spoken form, probably sounds like 3 syllables - taw men shaw.

(please excuse the lack of IPA approved symbols - I'm just trying to make a point about the meter and number of syllables, not the exact tone)

2. Táim anseo - Seems like this would be 4 syllables - Taw em uhn shaw. Also sounds awkward.

Again no IPA, but I just wanted to try to make a point that in speech, it seems like one form may be preferred.

Student, I think you'll find in 2. that the "an" in anseo is not a strong syllable and is affected by the slenderness of the preceding consonant so that the "m" in Táim and the "an" also run together as "min". Nor does the glide "i" in Táim really count as a whole syllable, so Táim anseo is probably really only three syllables as well - Taw min shaw.

1. Tá mé anseo. /tɑm'en's'o/
2. Táim anseo. /tɑ:m'in's'o/

A difference of "e" or "i" and the length of a vowel here or there with most of the stress on the /s'o/ - probably not much in it really.

I think it is more of a dialect thing. Munster prefers "táim"; other dialects prefer "tá mé", shortened in their own ways /tɑ m'e/ or /tæ m'e/. (Taidhgín, I think verbs other than "tá" are another matter. Of course, most speakers would choose "-im" over "-ann mé" but "tá" doesn't need the "-ann" ending.)

That's not to say that the people outside Munster never use the synthetic forms but they use them less, in limited situations such as single word answers to questions and perhaps in "set expressions".

The only time someone should desist from using only Irish is when the person on the receiving end says that they can't understand. If they are overwhelmed..if they ask for a translation then one should be given to them always. Just as you would do if you were talking to someone in person. That's basic courtesy.

But as I learned after repeated polite requests, some people simply redouble their efforts [the definition of fanaticism] and it moves from the realm of 'language teaching' to 'language bludgeoning'. Communication ceases to be the objective and words become ammunition as the language is degraded in the process.

Domhnaillín's reply in no way falls under the latter category and he should be applauded for his efforts on this board.

(Message edited by Danny2007 on February 12, 2009)

Aontam le hAibi :

Taidhgin >

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Unfortunately, in my humble opinion, they are wrong. No fluent Irish speaker would say "tá mé" in ordinary speech unless speaking into a telephone during a hurricane.

Looks like you've never heard people from outside Munster then - saying that something is wrong although you've not opened any book on Irish dialects *is* unscientific...
Only Munster speakers use "taim" most of the time ; Connemara speakers seems to use it sometimes, Ulster speakers don't use it much (if they ever do).

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Since we all suffer from "I-itis" and this is one of the most often used persons and tenses of the verbs people still use the older combined forms Bím, Táim, Bhíos, Bheinn, & Bhinn.

We shouldn't mix up everything.
Taim is mainly Munster ; bim is said everywhere although in some places (Northern Donegal) people may say bionn mé ; bhios (1st person sg preterite) is typically Munster although Connemara people may say it (especially in answers) I guess, but most of the time they'd say bhi mé ; bheinn and bhinn are the normal forms everywhere and I don't think native speakers would say bheadh mé or bhiodh mé.

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Perhaps in the future tense "Bead" is not used as often as "Beidh mé".

Bead is mainly a Munster thing, once again.

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"Cuirim braoinín den stuif crua sa tae!" Who ever heard a native speaker produce the bottle from its hiding place and say "Cuireann mé braoinín poitín sa tae."

People from Northern Donegal would say that.

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"Tá mé" instead of "Táim" is one of the tells that you are a learner. Only for that you'd pass for a native. :-)

Seafoid... You should have a look at what happens outside Munster and outside the books in Standard Irish before saying things like that...

Thinking about it some more, I realize I (and Lughaidh) have interpreted Taidhgín's comment way more generally than she probably meant it. She specifically addressed herself to the "unregistered guest", who has Munster Irish. If a Munster learner said "tá mé" to the exclusion of "táim" it almost certainly would mark him out as a learner!

Taidhgin is a woman???

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I think it is more of a dialect thing. Munster prefers "táim"; other dialects prefer "tá mé", shortened in their own ways /tɑ m'e/ or /tæ m'e/.

Aye. In Donegal, very often, people pronounce it /tæ:m'a/.
Unstressed "mé" is pronounced as if it were spelt "mea" most of the time.

Aithníonn Tadhg Taidhgín. Seans go bhfuil eolas rúnda ag Abi.

Ní hea, ach go raibh breall orm cheana! D'fhiafraigh mé dí ar "fear mór tomhas" í agus cheartaigh sí go caoin séimh mé.

(Hm. Táim ró-spleách ar an bhfocal sin "séimh" le déanaí is a liachtaí malairt atá ar chomhbhrí leis. Ba chóir dom friotal eile a shealbhú...)

N'fheadar.

Séard a dúirt Taidhgín ná:-

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Cé nach fear mór -- ná fear mór tomhas -- mé féachfaidh mé le rún an bhéarsa sin a fhuascailt.

Ní fear mór gach fear! Agus ní bean gach neach nach fear mór é.

A Thaidhgín ghroí, fuascailt dúinn an cheist!

A word of apology: Tá brón orm faoi na pointí a luaigh Lughaidh agus Aibigail i dtaobh mo fhreagra thuas maidir le “táim” agus “tá mé”. I tried to warn readers that my contribution was not to be taken as a scholarly or scientific comment.

I had another agenda: those teachers nowadays who imagine that “tá mé” can always be used by students and that “táim” can be discarded as archaic or “dialect”. Now there’s an example of “seafóid”. Perhaps this is not the forum to make such a comment since such teachers probably have little interest in Irish – “It’s just a subject” – and would not waste their free time looking up a web site such as this. If I chose the wrong forum I apologise.

As for my last sentence “only for that you'd pass for a native". Sigh! That was meant as a joke. Who of us could pass for a native speaker who was not reared to the language. Not me. On the other hand the number of native speakers is dwindling and the number of people like me who know the language well and use it every day is increasing. Obviously the future of the living language depends on us learners using what we know of the language as best we can.

Maidir le Tadhg agus Taidhgín (Pádraig agus Pádraigín, Donncha agus Doinnichín srl) níor rith sé liom gur ainm baineann é Taidhgín. Ag smaoineamh siar ar an iris scoile a bhíodh ann fadó a bhíos, AN GAEL ÓG agus Taidhgín Tréan, an Leanbh Láidir. Féach mar a chuaigh na cartúin sin -- cineál comic a bhí ann -- i gcionn ar an leanbh áirithe seo atá ag druidim ar aghaidh go maith sa saol anois agus lucht aitheantais m'óige ag dul ar shlí na fírinne go tiubh romham. Inniu féin. Bíodh sin is maith liom an greann agus cuireann sé lag-mhisneach orm má ghlactar ró-dháiríre liom. Bígí foighneach liom. Ní mian liom olc a chur ar éinne.

Olc níor chuiris orm ach mearbhall!

Ní mé an bhfuil ceann de na cartúin sin scanáilte ag duine eicínt in áit eicínt? Ní fhaca mé riamh iad...