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Jeannette
Member Username: Jeannette
Post Number: 31 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Saturday, February 07, 2009 - 04:29 pm: |
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Could someone describe for me the correct or proper pronunciation of "Gaeilge" ..(Munster preferred). I seem to hear it two ways..."Gayl-guh" and Gwayl-guh". Are both correct ? GRMA Jeannette |
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Trigger
Member Username: Trigger
Post Number: 303 Registered: 10-2007
| Posted on Saturday, February 07, 2009 - 05:06 pm: |
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If you prefer Munster prononciation, they use ''Gaelainn'' instead of Gaeilge. Gaeilge is prononced roughly like Gaelic in Donegal, Gwayl-un in Munster, and Gwayl-guh or Gayl-guh in Connacht. Gaeilge go deo!
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Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 2694 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Saturday, February 07, 2009 - 10:49 pm: |
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I'd say "Gaelainn" pronounced "GAY-linn" in Munster. Learners would put a w-sound after the g, but actually there's no w-sound (there is an unrounded w-sound, that is different from w to the ear). Gaeilge is what people say in Connachta, pronounced roughly GAYL-guh. In Ulster we say Gaeilg, pronounced roughly GAY-lik Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/
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Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg
Member Username: Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg
Post Number: 413 Registered: 04-2008
| Posted on Sunday, February 08, 2009 - 12:18 am: |
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An mise an t-aon duine amháin ann a dh'fhuaimneodh "Gaelainn" le "ng"? |
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Seanfhear
Member Username: Seanfhear
Post Number: 70 Registered: 08-2007
| Posted on Sunday, February 08, 2009 - 01:41 am: |
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A Chara Lughaidh, I hope you won't think me impertinent, I sympathise with you in your difficulty but I wouldn't accept 'GAY-linn' as an attempt to show a Munster pronounciation as shown above. The sound made by native speakers in Munster is more like 'Gwaoyling' or even 'Gwaohyling'. There is a definite 'swallowing' of the vowel sound represented by the letter 'a' in this instance. In older books you will even see the word spelled 'Gaolainn' 'An Ghaolainn'[Gen.Na Gaelinne]. This was 'ironed out' in the imposition of the caighdeán oifigiúil, a sad but inevitable standardisation. GAY-linn as such would sound more like the Irish of many [even fluent] non-native speakers who are of course more numerous these days. A Dhomhnaillín, aontaím leat, fuaimnítear 'ng' ag deireadh an-chuid focail a chríochnaíonn le 'inn' i gCúige Mumhan, agus i gCo Phortláirge deirtear 'yng'. Seanfhear |
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Dennis
Member Username: Dennis
Post Number: 4393 Registered: 02-2005
| Posted on Sunday, February 08, 2009 - 02:05 am: |
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A Sheanfhir, a chara, Cé chomh sean agus atá tú? Is féidir nach bhfuil tú chomh sean sin i gcomórtas le cuid againn anseo. An í scothaois, cnagaois, nó seanaois atá agat dáiríre? "An seanchas gearr, an seanchas is fearr."
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Bearn
Member Username: Bearn
Post Number: 1015 Registered: 06-2007
| Posted on Sunday, February 08, 2009 - 02:36 am: |
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'Gwaoyling' or even 'Gwaohyling' Isn't the man after saying there is no w in it? Getting hard of sight... :) (Message edited by Bearn on February 08, 2009) (Message edited by Bearn on February 08, 2009) |
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Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 2696 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Sunday, February 08, 2009 - 06:42 am: |
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quote:A Chara Lughaidh, I hope you won't think me impertinent, I sympathise with you in your difficulty but I wouldn't accept 'GAY-linn' as an attempt to show a Munster pronounciation as shown above. The sound made by native speakers in Munster is more like 'Gwaoyling' or even 'Gwaohyling'. the -ng sound for slender -nn is more something from West Cork and Waterford. But in Kerry it looks like people pronounce -n and they are more numerous... quote:There is a definite 'swallowing' of the vowel sound represented by the letter 'a' in this instance. In older books you will even see the word spelled 'Gaolainn' 'An Ghaolainn'[Gen.Na Gaelinne]. This was 'ironed out' in the imposition of the caighdeán oifigiúil, a sad but inevitable standardisation. inevitable in some contexts (official texts), but in most contexts of life you can use a non official dialect... quote:GAY-linn as such would sound more like the Irish of many [even fluent] non-native speakers who are of course more numerous these days. actually, transcribing Gae- as gway is as wrong as gay-, but with an English-like transcription you can't transcribe the real sound, which is a velar glide, so one has to find another way, if not using the IPA... Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/
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Ormondo
Member Username: Ormondo
Post Number: 222 Registered: 04-2008
| Posted on Sunday, February 08, 2009 - 05:38 pm: |
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S'é m'uain é anois! I've only heard it a couple of hundred times, but this is what I remember: Gwayling is near enough but Guayling might be closer. Pronounce the "u" in Guayling like in "gut"; for that matter pronounce the "gu-" at the beginning like in "gut", and before you pronounce the "t", so to speak, swerve quickly into the "-ayling" part: Gu-ayling! The Irish "ae" or "ao" of Gaelainn/Gaolainn does not actually exist in the realm of English (just like the "ö" of German doesn't) so we are talking about approximations here. (A piece of advice in German for learners of foreign languages with strange and unfamiliar sounds: Dem Muttersprachler zuhören und dann ohne Hemmungen nachjodeln.) Is geal leis an bhfiach dubh a ghearrcach féin.
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Breandán
Member Username: Breandán
Post Number: 131 Registered: 12-2008
| Posted on Sunday, February 08, 2009 - 08:18 pm: |
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quote:Pronounce the "u" in Guayling like in "gut"; for that matter pronounce the "gu-" at the beginning like in "gut", and before you pronounce the "t", so to speak, swerve quickly into the "-ayling" Ormondo, is that English "gut" or German gut you are talking about there? ;-) Seriously, before you posted, I had been contemplating putting up a _very_ similar explanation with the "go-" part of the English word "got" exactly where you have used "gut". I think the English "gut" would be a bit too open, but the German "gut" would be closer than the English "gut". It may or may not be a "w", but I definitely feel there _is_ something there. Lughaidh, do you mean that some dialects pronounce Gaeilge in the same way as if it were spelt Géilge*? Or only that you think GAYL-guh is a closer English approximation for /ge:l'g'ə/ than GWAYL-guh? |
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Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 2698 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Sunday, February 08, 2009 - 08:48 pm: |
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quote:Lughaidh, do you mean that some dialects pronounce Gaeilge in the same way as if it were spelt Géilge*? Or only that you think GAYL-guh is a closer English approximation for /ge:l'g'ə/ than GWAYL-guh? No, I don't think there's any dialect that pronounces "géilge". I meant that GAYL-guh was just as far from the truth as GWAYL-guh because none of them gives the real sound of the glide after the first g. Ormondo > yes, Gu-aylin or gu-ayling may be closer to the truth if the u is very very short. Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/
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Seanfhear
Member Username: Seanfhear
Post Number: 71 Registered: 08-2007
| Posted on Sunday, February 08, 2009 - 09:35 pm: |
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A Chara Dennis, de ghnáth ní maith liom an t-eolas a ligint amach, ach ós tú féin a chuir an cheist: "Mise Seanfhear críonna/Sine mé ná an Chailleach Béara..". Dála an scéal, ba spéirbhean í an uair sin! :-) Seanfhear |
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Breandán
Member Username: Breandán
Post Number: 132 Registered: 12-2008
| Posted on Sunday, February 08, 2009 - 10:43 pm: |
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quote:No, I don't think there's any dialect that pronounces "géilge". That's strange, because your advocation of GAYL-guh leads to a pronunciation that would be spelt Géilge*, and GAY-linn would produce Géilin*. While I understand your assertion that neither GAYL-guh or GWAYL-guh are accurate, GWAYL-guh is still the lesser of the two evils, so to speak. |
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Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg
Member Username: Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg
Post Number: 414 Registered: 04-2008
| Posted on Sunday, February 08, 2009 - 11:19 pm: |
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That's strange, because your advocation of GAYL-guh leads to a pronunciation that would be spelt Géilge*. An amhlaidh atá? When is "g" alone ever the best transcription of a slender g? I would think *Géilge would end up transcribed "GYAYL-gyuh" or even "JAYL-juh" before "GAYL-guh". |
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Bearn
Member Username: Bearn
Post Number: 1017 Registered: 06-2007
| Posted on Monday, February 09, 2009 - 12:25 am: |
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Breandán
Member Username: Breandán
Post Number: 133 Registered: 12-2008
| Posted on Monday, February 09, 2009 - 01:18 am: |
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quote:When is "g" alone ever the best transcription of a slender g? The broad and slender glides come out much stronger against the opposing vowel, so you don't need the "y" in front of the /e:/ or a "w" in front of /u:/, those naturally tend to be slender and broad respectively. Or do you think English "gay" [gei] has a broad /g/? The /e/ in "gay" /gei/ makes the "g" more "slender" even in English, perhaps not as slender as in Irish but closer to slender than to broad. Conversely, /g/ before /a/, /o/, or /u/ in English ("gut", "got", "good") is closer to broad than slender. (How in the world do you get "JAYL-juh" from *Géilge?) Gaeilge /ge:l'g'ə/ (g(o)ayl-gi) or (gwayl-gi) I think the ending should be "-gi" as in "git" without the "t" or "give" without the "ve", or or "-ge" as in "get" without the "t", not "gyuh" or "guh". Also, the "L" is the one in BRP "lip" (or the German "L"), not the American "L" (or French "L") which tends to be the "dark L" /L/, although that "L" would be the correct one in Gaelainn /ge:Ləŋ'/ or /ge:LəN'/. |
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Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 2699 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Monday, February 09, 2009 - 07:22 pm: |
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Breandan, what you say about the slenderness or broadness of English consonants depend on the English dialect you speak. To me, the g in "gay" doesn't sound like the g in Irish "gé"... By the way we're wasting our time discussing on the best way to transcribe Irish sounds with an English-like transcription. There's no way to do it, the Irish sounds are just different from the English ones... The best way would be sending a recording of someone pronouncing the word... Now I can't do it because I'm using my girl's computer (mine is broken). Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/
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Breandán
Member Username: Breandán
Post Number: 138 Registered: 12-2008
| Posted on Monday, February 09, 2009 - 09:57 pm: |
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Yes, Lughaidh, you are right. That is possibly the biggest problem with English approximations; they are dependent on specific dialects. As you say, what Jeannette really needs is a recording, perhaps one of a Munster speaker pronouncing Gaelainn (/ge:Ləŋ'/, if that's correct) or at least Gaeilge (/ge:l'g'ə/) with a Munster accent (since she has expressed a Munster preference). Do either Domhnaillín or Seanfhear know where there is one? or can they do it for her? Bearn, unfortunately your recording posted above was a bit faint and difficult to hear even at high volume, especially around the middle. I finally got to hear it in the still of night. Nice sample. Did you do it yourself? or was it from a tape or CD somewhere? Just out of personal interest, Lughaidh, could you also show us an extended IPA transcript for Gaelainn? - when you are back on your own computer again and only if you have a spare moment or two, of course. |
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Bearn
Member Username: Bearn
Post Number: 1018 Registered: 06-2007
| Posted on Monday, February 09, 2009 - 10:19 pm: |
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Breadán, that was me. I'll redo it, louder. I've boosted the microphone. A virus from Facebook interfered with the recording volume and I could never fully fix it. I will do the two words as well as other ones, since I'm not sure what ye are looking for. http://www.zshare.net/audio/55368666e7b1b17d/ Some words are just made up gaol /i:/ gael /e:/ gal /a/ or /a:/. Irish is not very distinctive here gaoll /i:/ gaell /e:/ gall /a/ Gaelainn with /l/ Gaelainn with /L/ Gaeilge |
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Invisible
Member Username: Invisible
Post Number: 5 Registered: 12-2008
| Posted on Tuesday, February 10, 2009 - 12:08 am: |
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Dia daoibh, If Munster pronunciation is needed, you can use sample from Pimsleur Irish: http://www.audiobookscorner.com/Title.aspx?titleId=6645 Click on "Hear Sample", and you'll get first 5 minutes of first lesson where Gaelainn is pronounced a few times. BTW nice sample Bearn! ZShare seems nice for sharing this short audio samples. slán go foill... |
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Breandán
Member Username: Breandán
Post Number: 140 Registered: 12-2008
| Posted on Tuesday, February 10, 2009 - 01:10 am: |
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Aah, that's much clearer now, Bearn. (Almost _too_ clear this time. ;-) ) quote:gal /a/ or /a:/. Irish is not very distinctive here That's probably because it is a broad consonant with a broad vowel, so there won't be an audible glide, really. quote:gall /a/ That vowel is probably better written /ɑ:/, if you have the character. (I copy and paste them to a text file as I find them.) Those are nice examples. I was actually thinking of just Gaelainn with a Munster accent and Gaeilge with a Munster or a Standard accent. (You have two Gaelainn there, I think the L in the second is closer. Also, you have less of a glide in Gaelainn and Gaeilge than in the word gael, is that intentional?) Meanwhile, I just found these online: http://www.naionrai.ie/tacaiocht/ceachtanna/teanga.en It sounded more like what I was expecting. Even has an explanation on the side, not "gale", not "gwale", but somewhere in between. ;-) And a gentler sound in Ulster. Unfortunately, Ulster is not represented in the sound files. :-( |
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Bearn
Member Username: Bearn
Post Number: 1020 Registered: 06-2007
| Posted on Tuesday, February 10, 2009 - 01:28 am: |
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"That's probably because it is a broad consonant with a broad vowel, so there won't be an audible glide, really. " I meant that since I was doing particular vowels there was no need for one with ɑ: vs æ:; perhaps the second would not occur anyways. "Also, you have less of a glide in Gaelainn and Gaeilge than in the word gael, is that intentional?)" No, I just pronounce the consonants and long vowels and let the rest of it take care of itself. It one particular word there is not enough glide, it is down to being a non-native and not being consistent, or due to the word structure |
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Breandán
Member Username: Breandán
Post Number: 141 Registered: 12-2008
| Posted on Tuesday, February 10, 2009 - 02:33 am: |
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Bearn, you are braver man than me for putting it up there to start with. ;-) Togha fir! Interestingly, the Pimsleur sample and the naíonraí sample reflect the two different pronunciations of Gaelainn mentioned by seanfhear and Domhnaillín above, that is /ge:LəN'/ and /ge:Ləŋ'/. - and both have slightly different strengths in their glides. |
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Bearn
Member Username: Bearn
Post Number: 1021 Registered: 06-2007
| Posted on Tuesday, February 10, 2009 - 03:15 am: |
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I hear an en not an ng in the first (Plimseur), but it is more like /n'/ to my ear, or not as strong as /N'/ in the north, anyway. That's not to say it is not what you say it is, but it is not very strong |
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Jeannette
Member Username: Jeannette
Post Number: 32 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Tuesday, February 10, 2009 - 01:04 pm: |
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http://www.naionrai.ie/tacaiocht/ceachtanna/teanga.en ..."Although "Gael" shouldn't be pronounced with a flat "a" like the English word "gale", to pronounce it "gwale" is to over-stress it. Rather than a "w" with the lips, try to make a gentle "u" in the throat. In Ulster this sound is very gentle indeed." This site was most useful...and it is EXACTLY explained the way I THOUGHT "Gaeilge" pronunciation should be...GRMA and especially, Breandán for posting it. |
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Breandán
Member Username: Breandán
Post Number: 143 Registered: 12-2008
| Posted on Tuesday, February 10, 2009 - 09:52 pm: |
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Thanks, Jeanette, but it was really Lughaidh's suggestion that prompted me to go look for it. Glad it helped. |
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Faberm
Member Username: Faberm
Post Number: 1 Registered: 02-2009
| Posted on Sunday, February 15, 2009 - 09:20 am: |
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I am seriously attempting to learn gaelic. I speak several languages, but have been hampered by the seeming inconsistencies in how Gaelic is pronounced from the spelling. Is there a dictionary that has pronunciation that is intelligible. I also need a book with conjugations like (201 Spanish verbs, etc). I have always used a native speaker to learn whatever language I study and I don't think I've ever met anyone whose first language was gaelic. I learn by engaging in conversation and don't know how others who learn thus have overcome the lack of folks who know with certainty how to pronounce this language. I live in South Central Texas 20 miles south of College Station where we have a major university. I dream of finding an old grandpa or grandma from Ireland up there who can talk with me. This is my first post on the forum and I'm glad to be here! Faber MacMhaolain |
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Bearn
Member Username: Bearn
Post Number: 1034 Registered: 06-2007
| Posted on Sunday, February 15, 2009 - 10:32 am: |
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Can you give an example of inconsistency? |
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Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg
Member Username: Domhnaillín_breac_na_dtruslóg
Post Number: 422 Registered: 04-2008
| Posted on Sunday, February 15, 2009 - 01:04 pm: |
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A good verb book for beginners is Briathra na Gaeilge by Ó Murchú and Ó Murchú. But you can find conjugations for hundreds of verb free online at the following websites: www.englishirishdictionary.com/dictionary An Foclóir Beag verbix.com/languages/irish.shtml I'm sure there are pronouncing dictionaries out there, but I haven't seen any. I'm not sure how they deal with the problem of dialectal variation. (Like English, Irish lacks a single normative pronunciation.) What materials are you using? Both Ó Siadhail's Learning Irish and the 1961 ed. of Teach Yourself Irish include pronunciations for all the vocabulary presented. |
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Breandán
Member Username: Breandán
Post Number: 152 Registered: 12-2008
| Posted on Sunday, February 15, 2009 - 03:41 pm: |
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Hi, Faber. Good luck learning Irish. It may not be as easy as some languages but it is a very interesting and beautiful language with a rich literary history. On a scale of consistency of spelling, Irish is roughly on par with French. That is to say, you won't find direct one-to-one correspondence of sounds to letters as you might in say Spanish, Italian, or German, but once you learn a few clusters and conventions you will find that it is much more consistent than, say, English or Japanese. There are special reasons for this seeming madness, not least of which is the need to represent many more phonemes than are available in the roman alphabet. Irish has initial mutation of phonemes but visibly retains the original root of any word grammatically modified. That leaves unpronounced letters hanging around, but means that you will be able to find the words in the dictionary. Welsh, on the other hand, is more phonetic but loses the original root in the change and you must continually undo any mutations to find the root word before you can look it up. The texts recommended by Domhnaillín are excellent choices. Even if you only go through the pronunciation guide at the beginning of Ó Siadhail's Learning Irish, it will all make a lot more sense. That is my preferred text for teaching grammar, too. If you are more conversation-oriented, however, you might like to look for Buntús Cainte (An Gúm), or Hodder and Stoughton's Teach Yourself Irish (Ó Sé and Sheils), or the new Routledge Colloquial Irish (which is in the same dialect as Ó Siadhail's Learning Irish): http://www.scribd.com/doc/8613097/Colloquial-Irish For a dictionary with pronunciation keys, look for Foclóir Póca (An Gúm) (ISBN 1-85791-047-8). One more thing, when looking for texts, "Gaelic" usually means "Scots Gaelic"; "Irish Gaelic" is usually referred to simply as "Irish". For political reasons, these two dialects have evolved into separate languages with different orthographies. Hope this helps. |
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Faberm
Member Username: Faberm
Post Number: 2 Registered: 02-2009
| Posted on Monday, February 16, 2009 - 01:02 am: |
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I will certainly pursue each of these suggested materials. The inconsistencies (I probably chose the wrong word) I speak of center on my unfamiliarity with the language and my inability to readily find "patterns" of pronunciation. Because of the way I learn, it would help me immensely to find anyone who speaks Gaeilge in my area to explain the various rules and to correct me. When I learned to speak Spanish I would read out loud for hours to a picky elderly woman who would correct me. I also lived with a family for three months which had no English speakers. I was a youngster of 17 (now I'm 52!) My observation is likewise based in trying to pronounce the latin letters in the usual way they are pronounced in the other european languages with which I am familiar. I speak Spanish fluently and I speak conversational French. I also read and write Hebrew which is quite phonetic. When I first began my study of Hebrew it was quite foreign but became familiar quickly as I found someone to read it to. I am sure in time I will pick up the Gaeilge rules. Concerning materials, I called Oideas Gael last week and Sioban suggested a couple of courses. They are now on the way. I don't recall the name of them right off. It will at least give me a start. If anyone knows of any course offered or any Irish speaker in my area, I would certainly appreciate the direction. Thanks for your encouragement. My main interest is to gain an understanding and limited knowledge of the language of many of my ancestors. They were all from Ulster and Argyll. I have enjoyed beginning to learn some of the proverbs on this website. I live on a farm and many of the sayings are so full of the wisdom of milenia of Celtic excellence in animal husbandry. Thanks again, Faber MacMhaolain |
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Bearn
Member Username: Bearn
Post Number: 1035 Registered: 06-2007
| Posted on Monday, February 16, 2009 - 01:10 am: |
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Well, I tip i would suggest, is get a dialect study on the phonology, and see how the system is laid out, then go an learn how to read, It will all make sense then. |
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Faberm
Member Username: Faberm
Post Number: 3 Registered: 02-2009
| Posted on Tuesday, February 17, 2009 - 10:56 pm: |
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Bearn: Today I received the course I ordered from Oideas Gael called "Tús Maith". It is unbelievably helpful to begin to get a handle on the patterns of pronunciation. You sound like a polyglot, so I must say I'm amazed at the familiarity of the gaeilge words once you get beyond seeing the spelling for the first time and hear the pronunciation. It answers many questions I've had for years as to the origination of many French words. Absolutely fascinating! Thanks for the encouragement. I also received the "Irish Grammar Book" by Nollaig Mac Congáil". |
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