mainoff.gif
lastdyoff.gif
lastwkoff.gif
treeoff.gif
searchoff.gif
helpoff.gif
contactoff.gif
creditsoff.gif
homeoff.gif


The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2009 (January- February) » Archive through February 02, 2009 » Archive through February 15, 2009 » The Cupola for dummies « Previous Next »

Author Message
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Geroid
Member
Username: Geroid

Post Number: 10
Registered: 12-2008
Posted on Monday, February 02, 2009 - 11:38 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

does anyone know if there is a layman's guide to the Copula?
What I mean is one that explains it in simple terms without too many grammatical terms.
I'm aware of what the copula is but don't have any hard and fast rules as to when to use it and when not to use it. Any links would be great. I searched before coming here to ask but all I could find was explanations that made my head hurt.
Thanks

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 8039
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Monday, February 02, 2009 - 11:56 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Try Lars' one here

http://www.nualeargais.ie/gnag/kopul4.htm

OK, he uses grammatical terms - but they are illustrated with examples.

(Message edited by aonghus on February 02, 2009)

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Geroid
Member
Username: Geroid

Post Number: 12
Registered: 12-2008
Posted on Monday, February 02, 2009 - 02:08 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Thanks for that Aonghus. It is helpful in explaining how to form the copula and have it bookmarked for doing some study on.
Is it possible though in plain speech to say ' the copula is used when.....' and /or 'the copula is not used for....a. b. c. etc '

I realise I may be giving the impression of not being the shiniest coin in the collection but stuff like :

'' A copula is a word that connects the subject and predicate ("copulates"). If a "normal" verb is the predicate, one does not need an additional copula.[ 1 ]
It occurs only if a noun, pronoun or adjective is the predicate. ''

only leaves me more confused than before asking the question

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Breandán
Member
Username: Breandán

Post Number: 125
Registered: 12-2008


Posted on Monday, February 02, 2009 - 05:16 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

The general rules I use for distinguishing between is, , and bíonn are "permanently", "temporarily", and "usually":

is = "permanently"; a permanent or semi-permanent state or attribute (and for emphasis)

Is fear mé = I am a man. (Short of a drastic operation, that won't change in a hurry. ;-) )

Is áit fhuar í an tAntartach. = Antarctica is a cold place. (always)

Is fear tinn é. = He is a sick man. (Chronically ill and may not recover)

(Notice that these sentences all have a Noun1 = Noun2 structure? (or sometimes Noun1 = pronoun = Noun2) ;-) )


= "temporarily"; a transient state or attribute

Tá sé fuar i dTóiceo (inniu). = It is cold in Tokyo (today). (But it might not have been yesterday, for example)

Tá sé tinn. = He is sick. (He is ill at the moment but he will probably get well soon enough.)


bíonn = "usually"; a recurring state or attribute

Bíonn sé fuar i dTóiceo (sa gheimhreadh). = It tends to be cold in Tokyo (in the wintertime).

Bíonn sé tinn. = He gets sick. (He tends to catch a cold around the same time every year, for example, or gets hay fever every season, etc., or whenever school starts, or every Monday morning.)



Grammatically, if you want to put two nouns together A = B you have to use is. You can't use or bíonn unless one of the nouns is encapsulated in a phrase like i mo mhúinteoir. So if you want to describe "what" a thing is, such as "a good man", "the managing-director", "a great place to live", use is.

If you want to describe "where" something is anseo, ansin, "when" it happens inniu, inné, or "how" it happens go maith, go hiontach, you have to use either or bíonn depending on the frequency (once or often). Which one you use can change the nuance:

Tá sé anseo i gcónaí. = He is still here. (Since the last time we saw him.)
Bíonn sé anseo i gcónaí. = He is always here. (Not that he is here permanently but comes here often enough to seem so.)


Normally for adjectives you use or bíonn, but you can also use is for emphasis:

Tá sé go maith. = It is alright/okay. (Good enough for now.)
Is maith sin. = That's good. (Implying that it is intrinsically good, always so, and no one could think otherwise. )


These are not infallible rules, but I think they can help until you have enough examples of your own to sort out the details.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Geroid
Member
Username: Geroid

Post Number: 13
Registered: 12-2008
Posted on Monday, February 02, 2009 - 05:21 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

That is pure magic Breandan. Thank you I absolutely get it when its put like that. That is exactly what I was looking for.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 2684
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Monday, February 02, 2009 - 05:39 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Grammatically, if you want to put two nouns together A = B you have to use is. You can't use tá or bíonn unless one of the nouns is encapsulated in a phrase like i mo mhúinteoir. So if you want to describe "what" a thing is, such as "a good man", "the managing-director", "a great place to live", use is.




That's right and should be the only way to explain it.

On the other hand I think the explanation "permanent state/non-permanent state" is nonsense. Just look at a couple of examples:

Tá gruaig dhonn orm > permanent.

Tá an tAntartach fuar > permanent.

Is múinteoir é > he may change job tomorrow if he likes.

Tá sé tinn. = He is sick. If he has some incurable disease you'd say "tá sé tinn" as well...


Many learners think of whether the state is permanent or not before making a sentence with "to be"... and they often get it wrong because the choice of is/bí doesn't depend on the nature of the state, but on the kind of words you have to link together : nouns and/or pronouns together, or nouns/pronouns with adjectives.

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Abigail
Member
Username: Abigail

Post Number: 987
Registered: 06-2006


Posted on Monday, February 02, 2009 - 05:51 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Tá gruaig dhonn orm > permanent.


Is iomaí fear romhat a chreid sin.

Tá fáilte roimh chuile cheartú!

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 2687
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Monday, February 02, 2009 - 05:56 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

LOL ! tá 'n ceart agad, tá ribí gruaige 'g éirí bán in áiteacha ar mo chionn le cupla bliain.

Ok : dé do bharúil faoi seo : tá mo chraiceann bán ! Cha dóigh liom go n-athróchaidh sin :-)

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Geroid
Member
Username: Geroid

Post Number: 14
Registered: 12-2008
Posted on Monday, February 02, 2009 - 09:45 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Lughaidh , I know what you mean about the exceptions but the reason a light came on with the way Breandan explained it is becuase I could straight away relate it to the Spanish Ser and Estar. These two verbs can sometimes be used to denote permanence or temporal mood i.e El es tonto he is stupid , but El esta tonto gives the feel of ' he is being stupid at the moment.

If you want one of the best exceptions to this rule in spanish , its Esta Muerto . ( Sorry Juan cant come to the door right now , he is being dead, )
He is dead. and it doesnt get much more permenant than that.
( Sorry Juan cant come to the door right now , he is being dead, ) :)

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Breandán
Member
Username: Breandán

Post Number: 126
Registered: 12-2008


Posted on Monday, February 02, 2009 - 10:06 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

...the choice of is/bí doesn't depend on the nature of the state, but on the kind of words you have to link together : nouns and/or pronouns together, or nouns/pronouns with adjectives.



Shouldn't the rule be:

is for joining nouns together or nouns to pronouns; (, bíonn, etc.) for joining nouns/pronouns to adjectives AND to adverbs. (?)


I think adverbs and adverbial phrases probably form the greater part of the deciding matter.


The distinction permanent/non-permanent state is more important to the distinction between and bíonn, but it still holds in part for is, if only because one is more likely to make a noun-attribute combination to describe a more permanent state.

Tá an tAntartach fuar can imply permanence but it can also imply that the Antarctic is cold now but wasn't before; Is áit fhuar í an tAntartach has much more permanence about it.

quote:

Is múinteoir é > he may change job tomorrow if he likes.



Some would say that Is múinteoir é can imply that he is a career teacher without any other job and probably _won't_ change any time soon. Tá sé ina mhúinteoir can imply that he was a student, etc., until recently but has become a teacher, or that he has been changing jobs over the years, or even that it is not his only occupation, just one of his many "hats".

Is múinteoir é can also be used for emphasis - of his many "hats", this is the capacity the speaker wishes to draw upon to emphasize his qualifications.

Nothing is hard and fast, the boundary between theory and actual usage are always blurred, but I believe the nuances are slightly different between the two.

quote:

Tá sé tinn. = He is sick. If he has some incurable disease you'd say "tá sé tinn" as well...



Yes, but you probably would only say Is fear tinn é if it was a serious illness, perhaps not necessarily chronic but incapacitating enough to prevent work, etc.

If you don't see it that way, fine. The grammatical rules alone leave some holes of their own - so much of Irish is idiom. Who can really give a reason why Irish sometimes chooses idioms like Fear mór atá ann/Tá sé ina fhear mór over Is fear mór é.

All rules are approximations; they all have their problems and exceptions. Sometimes an explanation may not be perfectly accurate but can do the job in the context. After all, we still talk about "sunrise" and "sunset" even though everyone knows the Earth revolves around the sun, and not the other way around.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 2688
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Monday, February 02, 2009 - 11:32 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Some would say that Is múinteoir é can imply that he is a career teacher without any other job and probably _won't_ change any time soon. Tá sé ina mhúinteoir can imply that he was a student, etc., until recently but has become a teacher, or that he has been changing jobs over the years, or even that it is not his only occupation, just one of his many "hats".



Is that your own opinion based on what you've read in grammar books, or have you evidences of that in native speech ?

quote:

Yes, but you probably would only say Is fear tinn é if it was a serious illness, perhaps not necessarily chronic but incapacitating enough to prevent work, etc.



Is fear tinn é = he's a sick man.
Tá sé tinn = he is sick.
Not the same meaning. By the way, I wonder which of these 2 would be used by Gaeltacht speakers to say "he's sick" with an incurable disease.

quote:

The grammatical rules alone leave some holes of their own - so much of Irish is idiom. Who can really give a reason why Irish sometimes chooses idioms like Fear mór atá ann/Tá sé ina fhear mór over Is fear mór é.



What I mean is that some grammarians have tried to invent complicated rules to the is/bí stuff, for which you can easily find exceptions, while if you explain the real rules, it's much easier and you can't be mistaken.

As I said, there are thousands of learners who get sentences wrong because they try to figure out if the state is permanent or not (I see that everyday on the Irish language forums), while they wouldn't get their sentences wrong if they were just taught that you have to use "is " to link nouns and pronouns together, and normally "bí" for the rest (nouns/pronouns with adjectives etc). It's easy, simple and there are no exceptions so you can't be mistaken...

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Breandán
Member
Username: Breandán

Post Number: 127
Registered: 12-2008


Posted on Tuesday, February 03, 2009 - 12:28 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Is that your own opinion based on what you've read in grammar books, or have you evidences of that in native speech ?



This is how it was explained in Learning Irish (Ó Siadhail) Lesson 26 p139:


Tá an seomra ina phraiseach.
Tá Cáit ina múinteoir anois.
Tá sé ina shamhradh.

This idiom at least to a certain extent, emphasised the state of having become something; 'I am a teacher' can be expressed by Is múinteoir mé (see Lesson 11) or by Tá mé i mo mhúinteoir. On the other hand, 'I am an Irishman' is normally Is Éireannach mé, as this is felt as a permanent state.


and the evidence of my reading around in Irish has borne this out 'to a certain extent'.

I think as many non-grammatical people get it wrong from the grammatical rule. And the grammatical rule has its own list of exceptions such as Is maith sin, Is mór an trua é, etc.

I find the above combination covers failings of both explanations and helps non-grammaticians find their bearings, which was the object of this thread.

As a grammatician, you probably don't see any need for other explanantions, but the "rules" always make perfect sense once you have learned the language and can look back at them with the benefit of hindsight. They don't always make sense to a beginner or even an intermediate learner.

I look at the other explanations as stepping stones to cross bigger gaps in understanding. Some of them may be a bit shakey but if they help you get there in the end...the learner can at least join the dots, get an outline and come back and fill in the details later.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

etainbreslin (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From:
Posted on Tuesday, February 03, 2009 - 09:42 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

at school 50 years ago, we were told

use "is" if you're saying
one thing/person (noun/pronoun) = another thing etc

I think this is the only rule you need

is mór an trua é .. it(pronoun) = great pity(noun)
is maith é ... it = a good (thing understood)

regards etain

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Lars
Member
Username: Lars

Post Number: 299
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Wednesday, February 04, 2009 - 12:55 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

only leaves me more confused than before asking the question


Sorry for that! :-)
It's a more or less literary translation of the German version.
But the file explaning usage of 'tá' vs. 'is' is rather
http://www.nualeargais.ie/gnag/kopul2.htm.

To outline it:
1) the copula is a word for the equal sign(=).
Not more.
Mathematically: "X = Y" -> Irish: "Is X Y".
That's it.
2) tá (and bhí, bí, bhíodh) is used to describe states/conditions.
Etymologically tá is related to the Latin verb stare = to stand (sto, steti, status -> engl. "state")
States/conditions are likely to be temporary. But of course they can be permanent.
This permanent/temporary thing is only a failed attempt to make Irish grammar "ridiciously simple".
It failed because it's wrong and the truth is much simpler :-)

The simple fact that tá describes only conditions explains such funny idioms as "Tá Seán ina mhúinteoir" = Seán is a teacher.
"Being a teacher" is a condition. And Seán is *in* this condition.
You probably will have a reason to describe a condition instead of simply tell the neutral fact that Seán's a teacher (Is múinteoir é Seán, Seán = a teacher):
Perhaps the condition is thought to be somewhat temporary (e.g. He is a teacher this year, but maybe next year he'll be a famous actor)
Or maybe you want to tell that he's just changed his state. (He wasn't always a teacher, only a year ago he was an untalented student ...)
Or perhaps you want to make absolutely clear that Seán is a real teacher, fulfilling all the criteria to be referred to as a teacher, all the criteria necessary for fulfilling the condition "being a teacher".
So there is no need for it to be temporary:
Bhí sé ina amadán riamh = He was always a fool.

And of course a copula sentence can be temporary:
Is amadán é anois = He's a fool now.

Lars

(Message edited by lars on February 04, 2009)



©Daltaí na Gaeilge