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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2009 (January- February) » Archive through February 02, 2009 » Is this a mistake on An focloir beag , Irishdictionary or niether? « Previous Next »

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Geroid
Member
Username: Geroid

Post Number: 6
Registered: 12-2008
Posted on Saturday, January 31, 2009 - 07:20 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

looking up the past habitual of déan and An Focloir Beag has it as
GH. CHAITE
dhéanainn
dhéantá
dhéanadh sé
dhéanadh sí
dhéanaimis
dhéanadh sibh
dhéanaidís

whereas Irishdictionary.dom has it as

déanainn
I used to do; I used to make;
déantá
you used to do; you used to make;
déanadh sé
he used to do; he used to make;
déanadh sí
she used to do; she used to make;
déanadh sibh
we used to do; we used to make;
déanaimis
you used to do; you used to make;
déanaidís

which is correct ? My guess is that Irishdictionary got it wrong , but I wonder if there is some dialect that would allow this ?

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Lars
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Username: Lars

Post Number: 296
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Saturday, January 31, 2009 - 08:27 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

That depends on whether lenition is regarded as part of the tense/mood system or not. Usually it is considered to be part of the past tenses (simple past, habitual past, conditional), but in fact it is not.
Lenition is only due to other words next to the verb.
Here it is the particle "do" which is usually left out: (do) dhéanainn.
The particle "do" (explicit or understood) is necessary in past tenses (with independent forms) but it is no real component of the verb. And so lenition is not, either.
"Do" isn't used with dependent verb forms, e.g. "an ndéanainn". And even 'an fhoirm lom' is perhaps possible:
"ná déanainn = that I not used to make" (ná Munster dialect for nach).

Lars

(Message edited by lars on January 31, 2009)

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Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 2679
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Saturday, January 31, 2009 - 08:27 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

An Foclóir Beag is right. You lenite verbs in the past habitual (except is there's some other particle before it).

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Geroid
Member
Username: Geroid

Post Number: 8
Registered: 12-2008
Posted on Sunday, February 01, 2009 - 06:10 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Well I learned something there. So the D in D'fhann ,for example, actually stands for Do fhann ?

while Im here another question if I may. There seems to be a complex set of pronunciation rules which is Tense dependent. i.e if its Autonomos the F gets sounded if not it becomes an H sound, and dh is sometimes ch and sometimes not. Is there a way to figure out what do sound when ??

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Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 2680
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Sunday, February 01, 2009 - 09:23 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

You mean "d'fhan" ? (waited)

Yes, the d that is put before initial vowels of the verbs in the past, conditional and past habitual comes from the particle "do". And this is the same "do" that lenites the initial consonant of the verbs in the same tenses, except the do itself is not pronounced but the lenition remains.

There are dialects (in Munster) where all these do's may be still pronounced: do chuaigh sé, he went, and so on.


quote:

There seems to be a complex set of pronunciation rules which is Tense dependent. i.e if its Autonomos the F gets sounded if not it becomes an H sound, and dh is sometimes ch and sometimes not. Is there a way to figure out what do sound when ??



Can you please give examples, because I'm not sure I understand what you mean in these questions...

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Geroid
Member
Username: Geroid

Post Number: 9
Registered: 12-2008
Posted on Sunday, February 01, 2009 - 03:02 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Well what i mean is it seems ( to my ears at least ) that the same ending can have different pronunciations depending on the tense the very is in . Example

I can hear three different pronunciations for the -adh ending , somtimes it sounds like -ach , then like -iv and also like -ad or -at

if anyone had a link to explain this I would be grateful it is very confusing to know when to pronounce what.

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Lars
Member
Username: Lars

Post Number: 297
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Sunday, February 01, 2009 - 04:45 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Proounciation of -adh:
formMunsterConamaraDonegalexample
imperfect with noun[əx][əx][u]Ghlanadh an fear = The man used to clean.
imperfect with sé/sí/siad[əx][əṭ][əṭ]Ghlanadh sé. = He used to clean.
autonomous form simple past[əx]*[u:][u]Glanadh an bord. = One cleaned the table.
verbal noun[ə][ə][u]Tá sé ag glanadh. = He is cleaning.

*Muskerry, Ring [əg], Southwest Cork [əv]

Lars

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Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 2682
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Monday, February 02, 2009 - 05:18 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Thanks for the table, Lars (I've saved time thanks to you ;-) )

Conditional endings work the same as the imperfect ones in Lars' table.

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/



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