Part of this query might be a little off topic.

Not long ago, I read in an 1800s census that my family's language was "Irish". I know they were from the towns of Rahkeale/Cappagh in Limerick and am presuming that they spoke a Munster dialect. I was wondering if anyone had any insight into the particular nuances of the language as spoken there at the time.

Besides' Patrick O'Conner's book about Rathkeale, I can find very little information about the area. Though I know it was the spot where the potato was introduced by Sir Walter Raleigh, the Palatine Settlements, etc. Does anyone know of a more (or other) books which are a little more personal and in depth? Like, what kind of music was/is favored there, etc? Food dishes, etc?

GMA

John

I presume Munster dialect as is still spoken in Múscrái, Corca Dhuibhne, Uíbh Ráthach and so on?

A Sheain...
Don't know if I can help you much except to say that my Irish were from Askeaton/Lismakeery area which is just a "good stretch of the legs" from Cappagh and Rathkeale. I had travelled/stayed there for two weeks in 2003 and spoke with several locals, saw many things..... two of which were /are excellent historians of the area. If you ever plan a trip could give you the name of one of those great locals.
My grndmother and grandfather were md in 1886 in Church of Cappagh, and of course Rathkeale was the 'registry" town of that time. They used to have walking parties with their young friends from Askeaton to Rathkeale along "the old dark Road" in their courting days.

As far as the dialect...every one spoke English ...but am sure the original dialect was Munster.

Jeannette

Heidski,

Which period of the 19th century are you referring to?

Rathkeale and Cappagh are in the Barony of Lower Connello in Co. Limerick.

In case you're interested...

According to the census of 1851, 40.1% of the inhabitants in that particular barony spoke Irish. This included 634 Irish only (monoglot) speakers.

37.4% of County Limerick's total population were returned as Irish speakers. This included 7,113 monoglots.

According to the census of 1891, 8.4% spoke Irish in Lower Connello Barony. There was a drop from 7,512 speakers in 1851 to 709 speakers (0 monoglots) in 1891.

13.1% of County Limerick's total population were returned as Irish speakers in 1891. The number of recorded monoglots was 17.

It seems that just after 1900's native Limerick Irish died, Danny do you have any numbers on Kildare during that time or any time years ago?

I recall during an anthropology class, that the Shannon bed was owned, in the area around Ard na Croise, by native Irish speakers who had a heavily calqued Irish, but apparently, Irish nonetheless. They had bought the bed from the British tenants legally. The newly created Free State did not want to do either (pay nor get ownership legally) so they sent down soldiers and killed 3 of the fishermen there, and took the stretch they needed. It took years to get any recompense, and what was offered was less than the value of the beds anyway.

Some interesting stories around that area -people selling off Celtic crosses, books and other historical items to foreign buyers; a deformed Anglo Irish landlord born with a tail who would patrol a pier, letting it swing over and back; decommissioned Irish soldiers put to work on the works, kidnapping, ransoming and murdering 2 German Engineers.

They could (and should!) make a film about the thing!

Some information from Brian Ó Cuív's "Irish Dialects and Irish-Speaking Districts" (1967) that may be helpful about Limerick Irish.

Areas where Muskerry Irish was spoken: Carrignavar, Killinardrish, Ballinagree, Millstreet, Caherbarnagh, Banteer. "Even in Rockchapel, which is at the boundary of Cork, Kerry and Limerick, what little Irish I heard suggests the dialect was substantially the same as Ballyvourney." (p. 68)

"...we can postulate a belt running from Waterford through South Tipperary, Limerick, and into Clare. In this area we find evidence of Déise type pronunciation." (p. 71).

Might we correctly assume a west Limerick Muskerry dialect and an eastern Limerick Déise dialect?

Well the native Irish that was once spoken in Tipperary is similar to the Irish spoken in An Rinn (Waterford Gaeltacht).

quote:

It seems that just after 1900's native Limerick Irish died, Danny do you have any numbers on Kildare during that time or any time years ago?

Trigger,

Kildare was one of the first and most anglicised counties in Ireland.

A few tidbits about Kildare:

For more, see B. Ó Cuív (Dublin Institute for Advanced Studies, 1951, p. 19, 23 and 77)

quote:

"Scarcely any Irish speakers."

- Whitley Stokes, 1806.

quote:

"English language general and Irish seldom used."

- Royal Dublin Society Statistical Survey, 1807

quote:

"The regiment of Glengarry, Scotch fencibles, who spoke with correctness the ancient Gaelic, though they understood the corrupt Irish spoken by the natives, could scarcely make themselves intelligible to them."

- Royal Dublin Society Statistical Survey, 1807
(Ó Cuív, Dublin Institute for Advances Studies, 1951, p. 77)

quote:

Census of 1851, Kildare: 514 Irish speakers (0.5% of county population), including 1 monoglot.

Almost half of these were found in one barony which included the College of Maynooth (almost all were male). The remaining 282 speakers were spread throughout the twelve baronies.
(Ó Cuív, Dublin Institute for Advances Studies, 1951, p. 23)

quote:

Census of 1891: 381 Irish speakers (0.5% of total population)

quote:

"...we can postulate a belt running from Waterford through South Tipperary, Limerick, and into Clare. In this area we find evidence of Déise type pronunciation." (p. 71)

According to one map I've seen showing the distribution of the Irish language some time into the 20th century there was one wee spot left in Tipperary (Cashel / Cahir area) and one wee one in Limerick (around Newcastle West?); there was a larger area in Clare.

Amongst the Doegen tapes there are recordings of a speaker from near Cahir in Tipperary and a speaker from Clare. On RnaG (Ríleanna agus Téipeanna) I heard recordings of other speakers: one from Tipperary and one from Clare. I guess that the last native Limerick speakers would have sounded something like the aforementioned.

quote:

"The regiment of Glengarry, Scotch fencibles, who spoke with correctness the ancient Gaelic, though they understood the corrupt Irish spoken by the natives, could scarcely make themselves intelligible to them."

All that says to me is that the Glengarry regiment got their noses out of joint because the locals didn't speak Scots Gaelic...bit like asking a Spanish person if the local Italians speak good Italian (or vice versa).

It is a vague quote. Does it mean what Brendan says or that their Irish was calqued?

quote:

...or that their Irish was calqued?

...or then again it might have been more a question of a spinning of facts than a calquing of Irish.

Good question. It was one of the few references to Kildare that Brian Ó Cuív included in his book.

It does mention that they understood the 'corrupt' Irish. I imagine that the Irish of Kildare would have been under severe pressure from English from an early time. Especially when you consider that virtually all the speakers there would have attained English by 1800.

Many thanks for your enthusiastic replies. Will surely follow up on many of them

"Areas where Muskerry Irish was spoken: Carrignavar, Killinardrish, Ballinagree, Millstreet, Caherbarnagh, Banteer. "Even in Rockchapel, which is at the boundary of Cork, Kerry and Limerick, what little Irish I heard suggests the dialect was substantially the same as Ballyvourney." (p. 68)

"...we can postulate a belt running from Waterford through South Tipperary, Limerick, and into Clare. In this area we find evidence of Déise type pronunciation." (p. 71).

Might we correctly assume a west Limerick Muskerry dialect and an eastern Limerick Déise dialect?"



I know I had family who were native Irish speakers and lived in Kerry but not too far from the Cork border and Rockchapel / Séipéal na Carraige, I suppose their Irish would have been pretty similar? Would there have been a gradual change going east to west across Kerry from the Múscrái dialect becoming more like the Irish of present-day West Kerry?

In reference to the type of Irish spoken in Rathkeale, Brian Ó Cuív (ID&ISD)"the Kerry-Cork type of pronunciation was current". (p.37)