I'm confused about this line in the song "Bean Phaidin" (excuse the lack of fadas, I can't type them easily on this computer)

"Is an bhean ata aige bheith caillte"

Literally "And the wife (that) is at him..." and I'm confused about what 'bheith caillte' means. According to the dictionary 'bheith' is 'existence' as in 'bheith go maith' - 'to be existing well' - and the dictionary says that 'caillte' means 'lost'

So is the sentence above 'And the wife that is at him (figuratively, 'the wife that he has') exists lost'?

How do you get, then, "And the wife that he has is not dead?" The adjective 'dead', 'marbh', doesn't occur in the sentence. It's not "Is an bhean ata aige nil marbh", which is how I would have translated that. Is this just one of those weird Irish idioms?

...is/and the woman with him to be lost...

Páidin's ex lady wishes his new lady to be lost?

IS can be the copula or a contraction of AGUS...

(Message edited by curiousfinn on January 02, 2009)

IS can be the copula or a contraction of AGUS...

But in a case like this, with atá just down the road, it's surely the copula. It's commonly used in this way to emphasise a portion of the sentence by bringing it forward.

Remember that beith, though grammatically a noun, has many of the usages of an English infinitive or gerund.

"Is an bhean atá aige bheith caillte"
'Tis the woman that is at-him to-be lost.

There's an unspoken wish in this phrase: "It is his (current) wife (I wish) to be lost (so that I could become his wife)."

Not lost, but dead!

Caillte when applies to people means dead.

caillte [aidiacht den tríú díochlaonadh]
imithe ar iarraidh; básaithe.


The clearly spoken wish is:
May the wife he has die, so that I can be his wife.

It goes on to very thoroughly curse her, wishing her broken bones etc.

From (faulty) memory:

Sé an trua nach mise, nach mise
Sé an trua nach mise Bean Phaidín
Is an bhean atá aige bheith caillte

Awkward word for word translation:

It is a pity that not I, not I
It is a pity that not I is Paidí's wife
And the wife he has being dead

bheith caillte...to be out of the way, gone...

Hi, Riann.

I was going to wait to be registered before commenting on your song and commending you on a great effort, but it is taking a while... Your pronunciation is going very well, especially on the parts you are confident with and Bean Pháidín has a few tongue twister parts that I would not surprised if anyone stumbled on.

One thing I did notice however, was that you were having trouble differentiating between the copula "is" and the contraction of agus, as this thread confirms. You'll find it is not always easy, so don't be discouraged but I'll try to give you some guidelines.

The copula may be pronounced either broad or slender /(i)s/or /(i)sh/ depending on the word that follows but more often the latter, and the contraction of agus is always /(a)s/ irrespective of whether the word that follows starts with a broad or a slender sound. A good rule of thumb for identifying the copula is that is most often (but not always) followed by "é" or "í", hence the pronunciation /(i)sh/ is more common.

A Dhomhnaillín, I am not sure you are right about it being "surely the copula"; I would have said the "is" here is "agus". If it were the copula I would expect "í" to follow "Is", expecially in a West Connemara song. With "Is" you need two parts to be equated and I can't see a second part in your analysis.

To me, it follows straight on from "It's a pity I'm not Páidín's woman ... and (may) the woman that he has be lost." So I think it is just "agus". Either way, I agree that there is an unspoken wish here and being before "an", whether it is the copula or agus, the pronunciation will be /s/ not /sh/, so the result is the same.

Riann, what version(s) have you listened to as reference? I used the Planxty version on the Well Below the Valley album, which is fairly true for pronunciation (I think they had coaching from Seán Mac Donnchadh). The phrase is pronounced /savaenata:egiveka:ilche/ there, not /sha.../, but other native versions may differ and I'd be interested to look them up for my own reference.

Also, I would translate "bean" as "woman", not "wife", as there is no definite indication of marriage there without "chéile".

Cailleadh í=Fuair sí bás. Caillte=marbh
"is an bhean atá aige 'bheith marbh

Yes, Aonghus and c o cuinn, I agree "caillte" would mean "dead" here.

quote:

But in a case like this, with atá just down the road, it's surely the copula. It's commonly used in this way to emphasise a portion of the sentence by bringing it forward.

As copula it should be "is í an bhean" (>"'sí an bhean") not "is an bhean". A pronoun would be necessary, e.g. in the same song "Is é an trua" (> "'se an trua")
So, here it is "agus".

The complete sentence is:
"Is é an trua nach mise bean Pháidín is (=agus) an bhean atá aige bheith caillte"

The presence of "agus" explains the following verbal noun phrase "agus an bhean (...) [a] bheith caillte".
There's no emphasising here. The relative clause "atá aige" is only adjectival, an attribute.
"and the woman (which he has) being dead"

Lars

(Message edited by lars on January 03, 2009)

quote:

Also, I would translate "bean" as "woman", not "wife", as there is no definite indication of marriage there without "chéile".

Ní dóigh liom é! Bean Pháidín = a chéile.

Má tá bean ag duine, is pósta atá siad. Ceist eile a bheadh ann dá mba an bean atá leis a bhí i gceist.

Scríobh Aonghus:

Má tá bean ag duine, is pósta atá siad.

Má raibh cailín agam... an pósta atá muid? B)

Níl!

Ach ní thabharfaí do bhean uirthi de ghnáth

Leannán, nó bean luí, nó cailín - ach ní bean!

Go raibh maith agat, a Aonghus. Tá ciall leis sin agus tuigim anois go bhfuil an ceart agat.

Thanks, Angus. That makes sense and I now see that you are correct.

Scríobh Aonghus:

Ach ní thabharfaí do bhean uirthi de ghnáth

??? I must admit that I couldn't make heads or tails of that...

Ach tá an fabht agam, níl agat.

"Ach ní thabharfaí do bhean uirthi de ghnáth "

But she wouldn't usually be called your wife. (?)

quote:

The copula may be pronounced either broad or slender /(i)s/or /(i)sh/ depending on the word that follows but more often the latter, and the contraction of agus is always /(a)s/ irrespective of whether the word that follows starts with a broad or a slender sound.

Ní fíor sin.

“is ní hé amháin...” – chloisfeá [∫] (sh) anseo freisin. Ní bhaineann sé le sórt focail ach go baileach le sórt fuaime a theaganns ina dhiadh. Déantar [∫] de [s] roimh chuile chonsain chaol ach labials, go hiondúil.

Go raibh maith agat, a Pheadair. Ní raibh a fhios agam faoi sin, ach b'fhéidir go raibh mé á aireachtáil. Déarfainn féin [s] sa chás sin freisin, ach sílim go bhfuil an "s" leathan rud beag níos gaire i [∫] ná an "s" Béarla, nach bhfuil?

Sa chás thuas "Is an bhean atá aige bheith caillte", an ndéarfá féin [∫] nó [s]? ([s], nach ndéarfá?) B'in é mo phointesa anseo.

A Bhreandáin, muna mian leat cantal dochreidte a chuir orm, ná tabhair aon rud seachas Aonghus orm, GRMA!
Ní hionann Angus agus Aonghus!

An pointe a bhí a dhéanamh agam ná nach mbainfí feidhm as "do" (an aidiacht sealbhach?) do bhean nach raibh tú pósta uirthi.

an bhean atá leat = the woman who is in your company
do bhean = your wife

(Message edited by aonghus on January 04, 2009)

Ó, gabh mo léithscéal, a Aonghuis, dháiríre! Ní dhearna mé d'aonghnó é. Bhí mé ag aistriú ar ais ón Gaeilge go Béarla agus rinne mé de thimpiste é gan thabhairt faoi deara céard a rinne mé. Béidh mé níos cúramaí as seo amach agus gabhaim pardún agat faoi.

Brendan Weightman- I know what you mean, they won't register me either.
Caillte is another word for dead. If used refering to something or somebody that is alive. Person Dog cat.
Tá an mada caillte - The dog is dead.
Tá an mada imigh amú - The dog is lost.
Tá mo sporán caillte agam - I lost my purse.

Caitríona Ní Cheannabháin sings a great version of Bean Pháidín.

It does happen eventually, a Bhadhbh. ;-) Just give it a day or two.

(Message edited by breandán on January 05, 2009)

Some questions:

youtube.com/watch?v=9f8CBoTpaZs (have to add the www in yourself)

Donal Lunny sings this song here, but I can't make out the first two verses that he sings. The first verse sounds like a modified rendering of the second verse I've seen elsewhere:

"Rachainn go haonach an Chlocháin
Is siar go Béal Á' na Báighe
Bhreathnóinn isteach tríd an bhfuinneog
A' súil is go bhfeicfinn bean Pháidín."

The second verse I have no idea about.

Is Donal Lunny a native speaker? Can his pronunciation be trusted to model oneself after? I really like this version, at least stylistically.

(I'm Riannleighiche, by the way)

Hi, Riain.

That's the version from Well Below the Valley that I mentioned above (I'm Brendan WEIGHTMAN, by the way :-) ).

Although Dónal isn't a native I think he does a mighty fine job (others might disagree, who knows?). The album notes suggest he had coaching from a native. (I find the "ch" in his "nach" a little bit weak but you can strengthen that up yourself.)

I have the words here, but they are on a piece of paper. I'll match it up to Dónal's version and post them later today but I have to go out right now.

Slán go fóill

Here's the words in the order Dónal sings them on the video:

Bean Pháidín

Curfá:
'Sé an trua ghéar nach mise, nach mise,
'Sé an trua ghéar nach mise bean Pháidín.
'Sé an trua ghéar nach mise, nach mise,
'S an bhean atá aige bheith caillte.

Chuaigh mise siar chun an Chlocháin,
'S thart timpeall le Béal Átha na Báighe
'Gus bhreathnaigh mé isteach trí na fuinneoga,
Féachaint an bhfeicfinn bean Pháidín.

Curfá

Is chuaigh mise siar Tóin an Róisín,
Is tháinig me aniar Barr an tSáilín,
Isteach tigh Mhaitéis Uí Chathasaigh
Féachaint an bhfeicfinn bean Pháidín.

Curfá

Rachainn go Gaillimh, go Gaillimh,
Is rachainn go Gaillimh le Páidín.
Ó rachainn go Gaillimh, go Gaillimh
'S thiocfainn abhaile sa mbád leis.

Curfá

'S go mbristear do chosa, do chosa,
Go mbristear do chosa, a bhean Pháidín,
Go mbristear do chosa, do chosa,
Go mbristear do chosa 's do chnámha.

Curfá