Scríobh an FF:

quote:

I notice that the imperative mood is listed for others than just second person sg/pl and first person pl... does it actually work this way in Irish, or is this a computer generated list of what it would look like by some rules?

I think that the third person can be used to convey an order via another person:

Tagadh sé anseo ar an bpointe, nó is dó is measa!

Also the saorbhriathair would be common:

Ná caitear tobac!

Third person is often used with bí ... ag/ar (i.e. "have"):
Ná bíodh eagla ort! = Don't be afraid!

1st person plural is used in the sense of "let's" in English:
Déanaimis é! (Déanaimid é!/Déanadh muid é!) = Let's do it!

And even first person singular is possible:
Ná cluinim sin aris! = Don't let me hear that again!

Lars

Is fíor dhuit.
Although the last one is really conveying an order to somebody else.

So, Curious Finn, the answer to your "does it work this way" is an emphatic Yes!

Cuirimis i gcomparáid Modh Orduitheach na Gaeilge le eile.

Ná caitear tobac!
We often have signs that read "Tupakointi kielletty" => "Smoking forbidden". This is past passive being used to direct a general command to an indefinite group. English "Do not smoke" would translate into "Äl(kä)ä tupakoi(ko)" => "Ná caith(igí) tobac". This would be more like a command directed to a single person or definite group.
"No smoking" would translate to "Ei tupakointia" which would be understood, but we don't say it like that.

Bí ciúin agus ith do bhia! and its direct translations would work for 2nd person singular...

Ná cluinim sin aris! => Don't let me hear that again!
If I wanted to translate the Irish into Finnish, it would be like "Älköön meikä kuulko tuota enää koskaan!" - but we don't say it like that. Our first person singular imperative, if such format once worked, is now defunct. The English would be translated very linearly: "Älä anna minun kuulla tuota enää koskaan!" which would be a second person imperative anyway.

So far it grinds down to directing a command to another person or a group. Then, for first person plural:

Déanaimis é! (Déanaimid é!/Déanadh muid é!) => Let's do it!
"Déanaimis é!" looks like our passive version, which is grammatically incorrect but widely used: "Tehdään se!"
"Déanaimid é!" looks like our correct, but oldish version, "Tehkäämme se!"

Then, it is possible to say "Tehkäätte..." to command a group directly to do something, but this is nowadays "Tehkää..." => "Caithigí..."

For third person singular and plural, I can't imagine a functional, directly imperative phrase.
"Tehköön/tehkööt..." would be closest, an indirect command, more like a wish given when the targeted party is not right there, which looks more like the present (or future) subjunctive than imperative:
-A mhaistir, tá fear déirce ar doras! (Isäntä hoi, ovella on kerjäläisukko!)
-Go n-imí sé sa diabhal! (Menköön hiiteen!)
Of course this could be interpreted as a direct command for the servant to tell the beggar to get lost.

(Message edited by curiousfinn on January 03, 2009)

Scríobh an FF:

-A mhaistir, tá fear déirce ar doras! (Isäntä hoi, ovella on kerjäläisukko!)
-Go n-imí sé sa diabhal! (Menköön hiiteen!)

ar doras >> ag an doras (?)
sa diabhal >> tigh diabhail nó don diabhal (?)

(Message edited by breandán on January 03, 2009)

Maybe so. Not my first blunders, and not my last.

Terve, Curiousfinn. Gabh mo leithscéal. Ná bíodh imní ort faoi mo chuid léirithe. Is iad na briathra atá i gceist anseo, ar ndóigh, agus ní na réamhfhocla.

Agus tá do chuid Gaeilge i bhfad níos fearr ná mo chuid Fionnlainise, a fhir! ;-)

Terve! Nó sláinte!

Ach nílim "terve" go fóill, tá rud beag casacht agus feabhras orm fós. B)

Agus is maith liom aiseolas a fáil!

Chomharthaigh irishdictionary.ie "sa diabhal" do "to hell"... (hiiteen <= hiisi + i/sa; hiisi = diabhal).

Agus sílim go bhfuil ceart agat, "ag an doras" => at the door => ovella (ovella <= ovi + ag). Aistriúchán gan uaim! B)

Sílim go n-úsáidtear "sa diabhal" mar "sa diabhal leis!" (To hell with it!) ach nuair a n-úsáideann an briathar "téigh" leis, déirtear "téigh tigh diabhail" nó "téigh go hifreann". Ach níl mé róchinnte agus mar sin scríobh mé "(?)".

Go dtaga do shláinte ar ais ort go luath!

Strictly:
diabhal [ainmfhocal firinscneach den chéad díochlaonadh]
ainspiorad as Ifreann; drochdhuine; duine crosta.
a devil

Ifreann = Hell

Ach aontaím le Breandán, bheadh "Go dté sé 'on diabhal" nó a leithéidí a bheadh ann.
Tá flúirse leaganacha i 500 Mallacht ort, ach níl aon ceann a fhreagraíonn focal ar fhocal do "Go to Hell" (Tá siad i bhfad níos suimiúla!)

Íochtar Ifreann chugat, abair! [May you be consigned to the depths of Hell]

---

Mar seo a bhaineadh mise feidhm as "Sa diabhail"
Céard sa diabhail atá a rá agat?
What the devil are you saying/implying?

"Íochtar Ifreann chugat." Chuir sé sin i gcuimhin liom do shlí eile an modh orduitheach a rá as Gaeilge:

Isteach leat! Get inside! (lit. "in with you") Briathar ar bith!

I mBéarla, To explain a wee bit...

Helvetti = Hell, but we often use softer words like hitto and hiisi, especially when not talking about the Biblical Hell. Hitto is an imaginary place comparable to Hell, but it isn't used in illative case in sentences of imperative nature. Hiisi, meaning Devil, can be and often is used that way. Therefore, sa diabhal correlates to the original idiom. Whether the verbal part was correct, might at the moment be beyond me.

In this case, Menköön/painukoon = "May he go..." or "I hope he went..."

from id.ie:

>>go to hell<<
USAGE:
to hell with you!, go to hell! = go hIfreann leat!, imigh sa diabhal!;

I imagined you could change the verbal part and pronoun of those, but perhaps this isn't as simple. Or the service provides junk translations.

"Imigh sa diabhal" feels wrong to me.

I am not 100% sure, not being a native, but I feel that téigh is the verb you need if you have a definite destination in mind. Imigh has more the nuance of "to go away, to depart".

So:

Imigh leat! = Go away! Get away! Begone! and some other phrases along the lines of "~ off! ".

but when you try to add a destination:

Téigh tigh diabhail! = Go to the devil's house/place!
Téigh go hifreann! = Go to hell!

You can also use "gabh" which means to "get (somewhere)":

Gabhadh sé go hifreann! = "Let him go to blazes! (lit. "let him get to hell")

Without a verb:

Ní miste liom sa diabhal! = I don't care in the slightest! I don't care a damn!

This has more the nuance of Aonghus' Céard sa diabhail atá a rá agat? example above.

All of these examples are straight from Foclóir Gaeilge-Béarla (Ó Dónaill/de Bhaldraithe, an Gúm)



With regard to translation services, if it is an automatic translation engine, I would say forget it. You can use it as a dictionary, but it probably won't do phrases or nuances (unless someone has automated Foclóir Gaeilge-Béarla?)

I work as a translator from Japanese to English and I use translation software, but quite frankly it produces gobbledy-gook in this direction. The main advantage of it is the dictionary software and the database of _my_ past translations. The machine translation needs a lot of post-translation editing by a native speaker, i.e., me, to become idiomatic.

European languages are much closer but machines still can't do nuances or idioms like natives. Too many people think they are getting a proper translation from online translation programs. In my opinion, until we have walking, talking robots that can think and feel and experience the culture, they'll never come close to a human translator. Closer and closer, maybe, but never quite _there_.

Even if it is a human translation service, the translator MUST have the target language, in this case Gaeilge, as his/her native language to get an idiomatic translation.

So, my advice is to use your "translation service", or any dictionary without copious examples, _with great caution_. Especially with a language with such idiomatic eccentricities as Irish/Gaeilge.

To keep with our diabhal theme, what would your translation service make of diabhal peann? This literally means "devil a pen" and it makes an interesting Anglo-Irish turn of phrase if you translate it that way, but the idiomatic English is more like "not a single pen", or possibly "no damn pen".

(Message edited by breandán on January 04, 2009)

You can find it here... http://www.irishdictionary.ie
It didn't recognize diabhal peann at all.

I don't think it is an automated translator, they have a database of phrases and they match them by search terms.

Surely it's not the best design tha could be made available, but it is free and works (mostly).

It does lack some rather common verbs and other words (I would imagine they would be common enough to be included).

Also many, many fine phrases have been translated and conjugated leath-thóin... yes you need your own brainwork with it, and it doesn't describe different translations for words very well.

In Connamara I heard it said "Gabh go dtí an Diabhal"
I don't know if that's the right spelling of "gabh"

It is.

Nár rachair ann riamh!

Well, there is this thing that might sound like 1st person singular imperative, when you try to psyche yourself to do something... but even then you are technically addressing yourself as a 2nd person.