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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2009 (January- February) » Archive through January 11, 2009 » Me trying to sing as Gaelige « Previous Next »

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Riannleighiche
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Username: Riannleighiche

Post Number: 24
Registered: 05-2008
Posted on Sunday, December 21, 2008 - 06:28 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

...criticisms welcome. Please don't be too harsh. I was also a little unclear on the pronunciation of "ceiliúrfaidh mé" - I haven't had the money yet to get a decent book so I'm floundering about on a lot of things, including the pronunciation of verbs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E96oQzjcY94

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Smac_muirí
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Username: Smac_muirí

Post Number: 200
Registered: 06-2008
Posted on Sunday, December 21, 2008 - 08:25 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Maith an fear! Maith thú. Sin an chaoi lena dhéanamh, amach os comhair an tsaoil mhóir.

Ná bí róbhuartha faoin bhfoghraíocht. Tiocfaidh sé sin.

Go maire tú an craoladh idirlín.

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Riannleighiche
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Username: Riannleighiche

Post Number: 25
Registered: 05-2008
Posted on Sunday, December 21, 2008 - 09:15 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Smac_muirí, nil mé tuigim! Tiontaíonn tú as Báerla, le do thoil?

(I tried to translate that for about twenty minutes and couldn't)

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Bearn
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Username: Bearn

Post Number: 937
Registered: 06-2007


Posted on Sunday, December 21, 2008 - 09:35 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Cad as tú? The longer I stay away from Ireland the more I confuse the 'mid-atlantic' speech of young people with Americans

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Riannleighiche
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Username: Riannleighiche

Post Number: 26
Registered: 05-2008
Posted on Sunday, December 21, 2008 - 09:54 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Mairim mé ag Victoria, British Columbia sa Ceanada. Tá scolaire me na teangeolaíocht ar Ollscoil na Victoria.

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Smac_muirí
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Username: Smac_muirí

Post Number: 201
Registered: 06-2008
Posted on Monday, December 22, 2008 - 07:04 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Go maire tú é - well done.

Ná bí buartha faoin bhfoghraíocht - don't worry about pronounciation - is maith an scéalaí an aimsir - time will take care of that.

Maith thú.

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Guevara
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Username: Guevara

Post Number: 17
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Monday, December 22, 2008 - 12:50 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Riannleighiche is breá liom Vancouver Island. Chaitheas dhá sheachtain go leith i gCeanada arú anuraidh i BC, Toronto, PEI agus Nova Scotia. Hi Riannleighiche I loved Vancouver Island went over on the ferry and saw Killer whales on the way. Spinnakers beer is something else brought home a few bottles and Victoria is beautiful. Spent two and a half weeks in Vancouver, Toronto and Haliax. Also went to Cape Breton heard plenty of Gaelic in Mabou and Christmas Island the Gaelic strongholds.

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 2602
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Monday, December 22, 2008 - 02:21 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Not bad at all a Riann ! You pronounce Irish better than some Irish singers !

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 2603
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Monday, December 22, 2008 - 02:29 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

By the way, the language is called Gaeilge, pronounced roughly "GALE-guih", so /ge:l'g'@/ in Connemara, two syllables only, it is not GAY-ligg-eh" and it is not spelt Gaelige. In Ulster we say Gaeilg pronounced GAY-likk, and in Munster, Gaelainn pronounced GAY-linn.

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Ormondo
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Username: Ormondo

Post Number: 149
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Monday, December 22, 2008 - 03:17 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

You pronounce Irish better than some Irish singers !



Riann sounds very promising; he has the right idea.

I think some of the Irish singers are oblivious of pronunciation. There seems to be a recognized correct way of pronouncing the language wrongly. Leaving all the patronizing flattery aside for a gullibility-free moment I would estimate that the Irish - in general - are linguistically still changing their horses midstream and blithely butchering both.

Is geal leis an bhfiach dubh a ghearrcach féin.

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Brendan WEIGHTMAN (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Saturday, January 03, 2009 - 04:05 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post


quote:

By the way, the language is called Gaeilge, pronounced roughly "GALE-guih", so /ge:l'g'@/ in Connemara, two syllables only, it is not GAY-ligg-eh" and it is not spelt Gaelige. In Ulster we say Gaeilg pronounced GAY-likk, and in Munster, Gaelainn pronounced GAY-linn.



Actually, it can have either two or three syllables, a Lughaidh, because Gaelic allows a helping vowel in a consonant cluster. More importantly, it is pronounced /gwe:l(i)gi/ NOT /ge:l(i)gi/, i.e., "GWALE-gi" or "GWALY-gi" NOT "GALE-guih".

Likewise, Gaeltacht is /gwe:Ltaxt/ not /ge:Ltaxt/, i.e., "GWALE..." NOT "GALE...".

The phonetics used in a lot of Irish dictionaries and texts omits the "w" for all broad consonants (and uses /'/ to mark the "y" of slender ones) so where they have /ge:/ they mean /gwe:/ (and where they have /g'e:/ they mean /g(y)e:/ = /ge:/).

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Brendan WEIGHTMAN (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Saturday, January 03, 2009 - 04:17 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Riann, in answer to your very first comments, I would say /kelyu:ra me/ if you are after a Connacht accent. After all, it is a West Connemara song.

Other dialects would probably say /kelyu:rha/, /kelyu:rfa/, /kelyu:rhwi/, /kelyu:rfwi/, /kelyu:rhwig/, or /kelyu:rfwig/. Take your pick. ;-)

For a text book, get Teaching Irish by Mícheál Ó Siadhail. It has the best coverage of pronunciation and grammar. You can come here for help with any bits you don't understand. :-)

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Peter
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Username: Peter

Post Number: 574
Registered: 01-2006


Posted on Saturday, January 03, 2009 - 07:48 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Bhreandáin,

De réir na rialach, chuirfí gutha cúnta isteach marach gutha fada a bheith insa siolla roimhe. Sé sin le rá, /ge:l’g’ə/ ba cheart a rá (chomh maith le /ge:l’g’l’ə/ a bheadh ag corr-chainteoir Chonamara, de réir chosúlacht). Sin ráite, níor chuala mé ach /gel’əg’ə/ ag mo bhean an tí as Tír an Fhia, cé gur féidir nach lán-chainteoir Gaeilge í ar chor ar bith.

Maidir leis an “glide”, tá an scéal seo chomh casta agus narbh fhiú é a tharraingt anuas :) Ar ndóigh, is mór an difear idir “leathantas” a bheadh ag /d/ in /din’ə/ (duine) agus ag /b/ in /bil’ə/ (buile) agus ag /g/ in /giv’ə/ (guidhe), ó thaobh na hurlabhraíochta dhe. Tá súil agam go bhfuil muid ar aon intinn go bhfuil velarisation, labialisation agus go leor eile i gceist anseo ach “leathantas” a dtugtar othru seo uilig i gcodarsnacht le “caoileacht”. Mar sin, tá an ceart ar fad ag Lughaidh agus níor bhain sé úsáid as aon chomhartha eile leis an leathantas seo a chur in iúl, mar is léir go bhfuil chuile chonsain leathan ach iad sin a bhfuil /’/ díreach ina ndiaidh.

(Message edited by peter on January 03, 2009)

'Na trí rud is deacra a thoghadh – bean, speal agus rásúr'

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 2628
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Saturday, January 03, 2009 - 09:15 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Bhail, d'fhreagair Peter in m'áit, go díreach mar a d'fhreagainnse féin.


quote:

Riann, in answer to your very first comments, I would say /kelyu:ra me/ if you are after a Connacht accent. After all, it is a West Connemara song.

Other dialects would probably say /kelyu:rha/, /kelyu:rfa/, /kelyu:rhwi/, /kelyu:rfwi/, /kelyu:rhwig/, or /kelyu:rfwig/. Take your pick. ;-)



Go bhfios domh níl fuaim "ly" ar bith san fhocal sin i gcanúint ar bith: is l singil caol atá ann agus cha bhíonn fuaim "ly" aige sin am ar bith.

ceiliúrfaidh = /ˈk´el´uːrhi/ = [ˈkʲɛlʲuɾ̥hi], ní /ˈk´eL´uːrhi/ = [ˈkʲɛλuɾ̥hi]

quote:

Maidir leis an “glide”, tá an scéal seo chomh casta agus narbh fhiú é a tharraingt anuas :) Ar ndóigh, is mór an difear idir “leathantas” a bheadh ag /d/ in /din’ə/ (duine) agus ag /b/ in /bil’ə/ (buile) agus ag /g/ in /giv’ə/ (guidhe), ó thaobh na hurlabhraíochta dhe. Tá súil agam go bhfuil muid ar aon intinn go bhfuil velarisation, labialisation agus go leor eile i gceist anseo ach “leathantas” a dtugtar othru seo uilig i gcodarsnacht le “caoileacht”. Mar sin, tá an ceart ar fad ag Lughaidh agus níor bhain sé úsáid as aon chomhartha eile leis an leathantas seo a chur in iúl, mar is léir go bhfuil chuile chonsain leathan ach iad sin a bhfuil /’/ díreach ina ndiaidh.



Níl an scéal gomh casta sin :
bíonn w-glide i ndiaidh na gconsan liopach leathan (b, f, m, p, bh, mh, ph) nuair a bíos fuaim ghuthaí toisigh i gceist :
/bi:/ = [bʷiː]
/fiː/ = [ɸʷiː]

Cha bhíonn w-glide i ndiaidh na gconsan eile : [ɰ]-glide a bíos.

/kiː/ = [kˠɰiː]
/teː/ = [t̪ˠɰeː]


Cha bhíonn "gwayl-gih" ach ag foghlaimeoirí agus ag cainteoirí neamhdhúchasacha.

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Breandán
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Username: Breandán

Post Number: 6
Registered: 12-2008


Posted on Saturday, January 03, 2009 - 09:24 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Tuigimse féin é sin, a Pheadair, ach tá a lán tosatheoirí agus daoine eile ann nach dtuigeann é agus tá a lån mearbhaill ann faoi. Nuair a bhí mé ag teagasc do thosaitheoirí a raibh IPA acu, is minic ar éigean dhom cur i gcuimhne orthu go bhfuil difríochtaí móra idir an córas IPA agus an córas a úsáidtear sna foclóirí Gaeilge, srl, go háirithe i dtaobh na gconsan leathan agus caol.

Ní cheapaim go laghdaíonn sé an mearbhall focal Béarla a úsáid mar shamplaí fuaimnithe.

Ní aontaím, ach oiread, go bhfuil an ceart ag Lughaidh a rá nach bhfuil ach dhá siolla sa fuaimniú an fhocail "Gaeilge", sin uile. Dar liomsa gur féidir trí siolla a úsáid freisin agus níl cosc a bith air.

Ní raibh a fhios agam go bhfuil rialach ann go gcaithfidh guth gearr a bheith sa siolla roimhe chun guth cúnta a úsáid. Ach tá sé sin suimiúil go leor. Taispeáin dhom cén áit a léigh tú é, le do thoil, agus déanfaidh mé staidéar air. Tá an-suim agam i bhfoghraíocht.

Go raibh maith agat os ucht do chuid léirithe, a Pheadair.

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Breandán
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Username: Breandán

Post Number: 7
Registered: 12-2008


Posted on Saturday, January 03, 2009 - 10:43 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Gabh mo léithscéal, bhí mé ag úsáid foghráiocht nach bhfuil caighdeánach mar níl an chlóscríbhinn agam anseo. Ní raibh ach an "l singil caol" ar intinn agam nuair a scríobh mé "ly"; tusa a léigh rud eile inti, a Lughaidh.

Do chlóscríbhinnse féin a úsáid, a Lughaidh, fuaimnítear i gComamara mar seo é, sílim:

ceiliúrfaidh = /k'eˈl'uːrə/ = [kʲɛˈlʲuɾə].

Ní Gaeilgeoir ó dhúchais mé ach níl mé i mo thosaitheoir, ach oiread, a Lughaidh. Mura n-aontaíonn tú liom, tá sé de cheart duit do thuairimse féin a rá, ach ní gá dhuit a bheith mímhúinte. Tá a lán eolais agat, cinnte, ach níl an t-eolas sin iomlán fós. Ní eolas amháin a dhéanann múinteoir de dhuine.

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Bearn
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Username: Bearn

Post Number: 947
Registered: 06-2007


Posted on Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 05:11 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"I think some of the Irish singers are oblivious of pronunciation. "

I think you have to understand Ireland and Irish people. Every country has areas that for all sorts of reasons, are blind spots.

In Ireland it is believed that the Irish accent comes from the Irish language, thus by extension, Irish people can speak Irish as they are by default, all natives.

It is also a belief that they know everything, and you'd better not disagree with them on anything, even when their ignorance is clearly apparent, or you'll soon find out, either by anger or mocking, what they think of it.

The longer I have lived outside of Ireland, the more apparent it gets that Irish people lack humility of any sort. With reference to this topic, for those singers, there is absolutely no possibility allowable in their heads for a) being wrong, or b) Irish having structures and features they have not mastered. Therefore, they will always sing it wrong, nor could you ever even explain to them any different

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Smac_muirí
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Username: Smac_muirí

Post Number: 224
Registered: 06-2008
Posted on Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 07:28 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Gné greannmhar eile faoi Éireannaigh an chantail, a luaithe a rachaidh siad thar lear, ní tada feasta a bhfuil d'eolas ar domhan faoi rud ar bith in Éirinn, canúintí san áireamh, ach a bhfuil acu féin.

Fág acu é.

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Smac_muirí
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Username: Smac_muirí

Post Number: 225
Registered: 06-2008
Posted on Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 07:33 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Bhreandáin, tá tú ag iarraidh an múineadh a chur ar ais sna múinteoirí, bail ó Dhia ort. Tá roinnt a fhanfas sách dall ar chéad chonsan an dá fhocal san.

Ná cuirfeadh sé sin isteach ná amach ort. Buail faoin teanga, ceann ar aghaidh dá n-ainneoin, is go n-éirí sin leat.

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 2630
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 03:18 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Tuigimse féin é sin, a Pheadair, ach tá a lán tosatheoirí agus daoine eile ann nach dtuigeann é agus tá a lån mearbhaill ann faoi.



off-topic...

quote:

Nuair a bhí mé ag teagasc do thosaitheoirí a raibh IPA acu, is minic ar éigean dhom cur i gcuimhne orthu go bhfuil difríochtaí móra idir an córas IPA agus an córas a úsáidtear sna foclóirí Gaeilge, srl, go háirithe i dtaobh na gconsan leathan agus caol.



Ní hé an IPA a fhaghthar ins an Fhoclóir Phóca ach cineál trascríobhtha fhóineolaígh a rinneadh don Ghaeilg. Ní hionann an dá rud ar chor ar bith. Ní hionadh go bhfuil duifreacha eadar an dá rud, mar sin.
Ins an IPA ciallann an uaschamóg "ejective consonant", mar shompla.

quote:

Ní aontaím, ach oiread, go bhfuil an ceart ag Lughaidh a rá nach bhfuil ach dhá siolla sa fuaimniú an fhocail "Gaeilge", sin uile. Dar liomsa gur féidir trí siolla a úsáid freisin agus níl cosc a bith air.



Níl cosc ar bith ar rud ar bith, cibé ar bith, ach níl áit ar bith sa Ghaeltacht ina n-abróchar "Gaeilige" (amhanc ar atlas Wagner 's tchífidh tú). Na daoiní a deireas sin, is foghlaimeoirí iad nár fhoghlaim an focal sin i gceart, sin an méid. Más mian leat úsáid a bhaint as fuaimníonnaí míchearta, déan é, ach ná habair leis na daoiní eile go bhfuil siad ceart.

quote:

Ní raibh a fhios agam go bhfuil rialach ann go gcaithfidh guth gearr a bheith sa siolla roimhe chun guth cúnta a úsáid.



ba chóir duit sin a bheith ar eolas agad sula ndeirfeá linn go bhfuil an ceart agad agus go bhfuil dul amugha orainn...

quote:

Ach tá sé sin suimiúil go leor. Taispeáin dhom cén áit a léigh tú é, le do thoil, agus déanfaidh mé staidéar air. Tá an-suim agam i bhfoghraíocht.



Mar shompla, in Graiméar Gaeilge na mBráithre Críostaí, §1.15.
Smaoitigh ar fhocla mar "órga" (chan abartar "óraga"), maorga...

quote:

Ní raibh ach an "l singil caol" ar intinn agam nuair a scríobh mé "ly"; tusa a léigh rud eile inti, a Lughaidh.

Do chlóscríbhinnse féin a úsáid, a Lughaidh, fuaimnítear i gComamara mar seo é, sílim:

ceiliúrfaidh = /k'eˈl'uːrə/ = [kʲɛˈlʲuɾə].



Ní cóir "ly" a dh'úsáid, mar sin. Bheireann "ly" ort smaoiteamh ar an l mar sa Bhéarla "million". Cha dtig leat an l caol singil a thrascríobh ar nós a' Bhéarla cibé ar bith. Scríobhfainn féin "keh-loor", mar nach féidir rud ar bith níos fearr a dhéanamh, dar liom...

quote:

Ní Gaeilgeoir ó dhúchais mé ach níl mé i mo thosaitheoir, ach oiread, a Lughaidh. Mura n-aontaíonn tú liom, tá sé de cheart duit do thuairimse féin a rá, ach ní gá dhuit a bheith mímhúinte.



cá háit a rabh mé mímhúinte, le do thoil?

quote:

Ní eolas amháin a dhéanann múinteoir de dhuine.



Bhail is múinteoir mé cheana féin (ach teagascam teangaidh eile) agus cha dtearn duine ar bith gearán fá dtaobh domh go dtí seo...

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Smac_muirí
Member
Username: Smac_muirí

Post Number: 226
Registered: 06-2008
Posted on Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 04:22 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Ara cén fáth a ndéanfadh éinne gearán fút a Lughaidh?

.. ..



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