Should Oidaes Gael relocate to a community where Irish is still widely spoken?


As many of us know, Oideas Gael is an institute which is primarily focused on the promotion and learning of Irish through the various language courses that it offers. It's located in the village of Gleann Cholm Cille in southwestern Donegal. It also hosts a few classes at its facility in Gleann Fhinne.

One of its stated aims for guests:

quote:

To participate fully in the daily life of the Gaeltacht.

One of the nagging questions I was left with after spending eighteen days there was:

Is Oidaes Gael doing a disservice to students by remaining in a community which has almost COMPLETELY acquiesced to English in recent years?

How can people participate in the "daily life of the Gaeltacht" when the community (aside from Oideas Gael itself) is now largely indistinguishable from most throughout Ireland in terms of linguistic make up? For example, I never heard conversation in Irish amongst locals during my stay. I never witnessed any of the advanced students or teachers conversing in Irish with locals. I never heard more than go raibh maith agat or slán from the staff at An Chistin (the restaurant attached to the campus). Nor at the pubs like Biddy's. In eighteen days! It was always between people taking classes and/or those teaching them. Even the family I stayed with (a fantastic cook...originally from Gaoth Dobhair) barely used Irish with her kids. I've been to numerous Gaeltachtaí. I've also lived in one for a couple of months. It doesn't take long to differentiate between a real gaeltacht (or even a legit breac-ghaeltacht)...and a former gaeltacht.
But after more than two weeks in Gleann Cholm Cille in various settings, various shops and pubs and restaurants...outside church etc...Irish was almost completely inaudible and invisible.

This was in complete contrast to the school itself. In the shop, staff used Irish out of preference. In the foyer and the office and the meeting rooms, it was much the same. Within the confines of Oideas Gael, Irish was everywhere. It was like an oasis or a small island in a large lake. The classes were engaging and the teachers were patient and enthusiastic. It was a nice experience and something I'd recommend to anyone learning Irish who hasn't already been there. Although plenty of people end up going back year after year, so there's that too.

My only issue, and this was something that a number of us discussed and agreed on while we were there, was that there was very little opportunity to use Irish outside of the school setting. To use it in a natural, informal way. Couple all this with the fact that only 38% of residents claimed to speak Irish daily in the 2006 census, and a mere 11% of eligible households [a total of just 4 households] with school aged kids receiving the SLG [Irish-speaking grant] last year, it's clear that Gleann Cholm Cille is no longer a place where Irish is spoken habitually by most residents.

Being a beginner, it made little difference for me. But for the near-fluent students that I got to chatting with, it was clearly frustrating. I was also struck by the lack of Irish signage in the town.

Wouldn't Oideas Gael be better off relocating to somewhere like the parish of Gaoth Dobhair where people would have a much better chance of feeling that they were in a living, breathing Gaeltacht? Classrooms are no substitute for that.

Thoughts?


PS.

How many users here have been to Oideas Gael?

http://www.oideas-gael.com/Leathanacha/oideas_gael.html

(Message edited by danny2007 on December 14, 2008)

Bhuel...Things must have changed dramatically since I was at Oideas Gael. Liam put me in a B&B "Abhar Dubh" with an Irish-speaking family...still burning turf in May!...and I heard only Irish in the local pub...and there was nightly Craic agus Ceol at the restuarant on Glen Head!

The Gaeltacht is shrinking and if Odeas Gael were to relocate to Gaoth Dobhair as you suggest, 'twould only be a matter of time before it would have to relocate again! Foras na Gaeilge does not have the resources to fund these relocations!

Le meas,

You seem to be suggesting that the language will decline in the years/decades ahead in Gaoth Dobhair. Is that correct? If so, why? Who's to say that will change for the worse? The only people who can make that happen there are Irish speakers themselves. The position of the language is still relatively robust there.

Outside the walls of Oideas Gael, the same can no longer be said for Gleann Cholm Cille.

I can't see what the argument is about (it is a little more involved on IGT) -who in their right mind would be arguing for a strong 'fíor-Ghaeltacht' in South Donegal? It is impossible

Irish died out in Gleann Cholm Cille because years ago there were two schools; one through the medium of Irish, the other through English. The children in the Irish school always spoke Irish, same for the English school but in English. Once the children were ready to go seconderry school they were all mixed together and the seconderry school was through English, in the class they wouldn't mix the Irish kids spoke Irish together on one side of the class and the English kids spoke English and ofcourse in time to come Irish lost out, and the Irish speaking students now speak English.

And each house in Gleann Cholm Cille, one would be an Irish speaking household then the other wouldn't, it was like that everywhere. After the years went by Irish just collapsed.

I got told that by Liam himself.

I went to Oideas Gael last year and thought the same about the village. Hardly any of the locals spoke As Gaeilge. Myself and another chap were trying to speak Irish to the younger locals and they weren't having any of it saying they knew Irish but didnt speak it at all.
Although in the Brackendale, the B+B where I stayed,Mary and John would converse to each other, and any of us who wished to speak it, in Irish.

quote:

I was also struck by the lack of Irish signage in the town.

Hmm. . .

Nearly ever signage in the village is in Irish, outside the park near the hall all the signs and notices where in Irish onyl, no English. The restaurant had Irish signage outside, the pub in Biddys had ''oscailte'' on the window, several No Smoking signs in Irish.

I dunno where you got that from, (sorry Danny :S)

Everytime I've been to Dingle or Feothanach the young locals wouldnt speak Irish to me. Im yet to hear them speak it between themselves from the time I've spent there. And this is apparently the heartland of an official Gaelthacht.

You seem to be suggesting that the language will decline in the years/decades ahead in Gaoth Dobhair. Is that correct? If so, why? Who's to say that will change for the worse? The only people who can make that happen there are Irish speakers themselves. The position of the language is still relatively robust there.

Outside the walls of Oideas Gael, the same can no longer be said for Gleann Cholm Cille.

----------------------------------------------------
Irish was once robust in Gleann Cholm Cille and Irish-speakers themselves let Irish slip into delcine there.
What do you suggest to prevent Irish-speakers themselves in Gaoth Dobhair from letting the same thing happen there?

Molfar an té a bhfuil scéim ar bith aige chun treo frith-Ghaeilge a aisiompú in Éirinn!!

Le meas,

I would speculate that the language shift for the majority of the locals in Gleann occurred at least a generation ago. Probably longer. In other words, it occurred in a time before TG4, the internet, etc. There's a lot more goodwill being shown towards the language now, surely.

What would I suggest to people in Gaoth Dobhair? The use of Irish seems stable amongst all groups except the young. Don't expect anything from the schools. If parents aren't using Irish in preference (!!) with their children in the home, then it will fade away.

There's every incentive to speak Irish nowadays. Those who can speak it but won't (or who do it rarely), don't value it. Period. Those who were raised with it but don't pass it on to their children (if they have them) don't value it. There's not much that can be said or done for those people. Free will and all. But the majority there seem to value it, so I trust their collective judgment to do what they believe is right. It's their language, after all. I'm sure they've heard every argument and theory about language maintenance out there already anyway!

There seems to be this common underlying feeling that the traditional gaeltacht is destined for extinction. Like the decline that has occurred up to this point is some massive, unstoppable snowball hurdling down a mountain. Many of the signs aren't promising, no doubt. God knows I've discussed them before and received plenty of flak because of it. But at the end of the day, the only people who can make that extinction a reality are Irish people themselves. Irish speakers first and foremost. That's how I choose to frame it. The only people who can CAUSE the destruction of the gaeltacht are Irish people, first and foremost. Not "the only people who can STOP it are Irish people." You can blame English speakers all you want. You can blame holiday homes, immigration...the government, the Brits, the Catholic Church, Peig Sayers, Oliver Cromwell, Dustin the Turkey....whoever. The reality is that no Irish person is being prevented from learning Irish. No one can stop you from speaking a language.

The battle won't be won or lost on the Internet. It won't be won or lost in Dublin or the Dáil. And the efforts of enthusiasts scattered in different parts of the world, no matter how valiant, are a mere drop in the ocean. (Yeah, I'm stating the obvious here.)

quote:

No one can stop you from speaking a language.

Actually, they can!
The reasons why the Gaeltacht declines are a complex mix of socio economic factors - but discouragement and making it difficult to do one's business in Irish is a big factor.

I suspect (but I don't know) that the reason why Oideas Gael stays in Gleann Cholm Chille is to give encouragement to those few households who have continued speaking Irish, and to introduce new Irish speakers to the area. And it seems to work, because it has produced fluent speakers who return again, and who spread the word.

Until there is widespread, well paid, employment in the Gaeltacht which requires Gaeltacht Irish to perform it, the Gaeltacht will decline (for similar reasons to rural; Ireland in general).

Oideas Gael and places like Acadamh na hOllscoilíochta are one way to stem that decline.

Actually, do Irish enjoy the legal right to speak Irish in basically any situation? Specifically, something on a par with the Québecois Charter of the French Language?

--

Title I :Status of the French language

Chapter I: The official Language of Québec

1. French is the official language of Québec

Chapter II : Fundamental language rights

2. Every person has a right to have the civil administration, the health services and social services, the public utility enterprises, the professional corporations, the associations of employees and all enterprises doing business in Quebec communicate with him in French.

3. In deliberative assembly, every person has a right to speak in French.

4. Workers have a right to carry on their activities in French.

5. Consumers of goods and services have a right to be informed and served in French.

6. Every person eligible for instruction in Québec has a right to receive that instruction in French.

http://www.olf.gouv.qc.ca/english/charter/index.html

(Message edited by Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh on December 17, 2008)

I'm no expert but I think the Irish have similar provisions in their legal system.

Right to services in Irish...yes.

Right to speak and carry on activities as gaeilge...yes.

Right to receive instruction through Irish..yes.


A Aonghuis...an bhfuil me ceart?

I think the difference may lie in how well the Quebec laws are honored and the Irish ones ignored...and how much of a fuss the respective speakers are willing to kick up over even the tiniest breaches....

quote:

making it difficult to do one's business in Irish is a big factor.

Fair point. Has the Official Languages Act done anything to improve things, in your opinion?

The Official Languages Act has been described as a sop to Irish speakers and part of a government strategy to isolate speakers and redefine it as a minority language as opposed to the "national" language. (a claim made by a native speaker and academic...who was also opposed to official EU status...so draw your own conclusions.)

Anyone capable of carrying out their day to day business in Irish needs to insist on using it over English. I imagine the temptation to use English because it's easier and more convenient is quite strong. If the OLA comes under review in five or ten years, and it's shown that relatively few people have made use of it, that will be a severe blow.

quote:

Anyone capable of carrying out their day to day business in Irish needs to insist on using it over English.

The Act has improved matters, but it still takes more pain to get one's business done in Irish.

The simple fact is that the personnel capable of providing services in Irish quickly and efficiently just isn't there.

Personally I am not so affected because other than paying my taxes I interact very little with governement.

But I can imagine a small business just not being able to afford to fight City Hall all the time.

Some background info

http://www.coimisineir.ie/index.php?page=cearta_bunreachtula&tid=10

http://www.coimisineir.ie/index.php?page=cearta_bunreachtula&tid=10&lang=english

quote:

The Constitution permits the public to conduct its business – and every part of its business – with the state solely through Irish. As a result of this constitutional right, public bodies have a duty to comply with this right.

In practice, however, it often happened that no effective provision was made to provide services in Irish as well as providing services in English.

http://www.coimisineir.ie/index.php?page=cearta_faoi_acht&lang=english&tid=10

http://www.coimisineir.ie/index.php?page=cearta_faoi_acht&tid=10&lang=gaeilge

---

As far as I know there is no specific right to recieve instruction through Irish. If there were, it would be the government who would set up Gaelscoileanna, not parents.

However, it is parents in Ireland who are the primary authority for Education.

Rather than making a sustained effort to attain bilingualism I fear the majority will continue to opt for the lazy option of English monolinguism and this fact will continue to militate against the conversion of any of the legislation into an everyday reality.

There is a durable tradition there of catering to the strident LCD (Lowest Common Denominator).

This discussion was mentioned in FOINSE this morning.

All Irish-speakers and Irish-speaking parents are faced by the same constant barrage of pop culture from the media which turns the younger generations away from anything that might seem as not "cool".

Earning a living in the Gaeltacht must be difficult at the best of times so the more progressive families will prepare to move out -- by concentrating on English and education for the wider world. "Sure, everyone speaks Irish around us here. Irish will always be spoken here." It won't. Peig has a telling remark about the people she worked for in An Daingean: "Gaelainn a labhraíodar ach amháin leis an gclainn." (They spoke Irish except to the children.) That attitude is widespread.

If a young man chooses to live in the Gaeltacht and marries a girl from "outside" few of his family, relatives or friends would ever be so rude as to speak Irish in her presence lest they give offence. There may be older unmarried uncles nearby who speak nothing but Irish. They are delighted to see a new family being established in their community and if the new mother does not know Irish no one will make her feel any the less for it. They have their fingers crossed that she will be happy in the area and stay. Speaking Irish anywhere is a complex matter frought with all sorts of connotations, overtones, and assumptions.

Sometimes the opposite happens. The young bride decides to become more Gaelach than the locals themselves and puts everyone on the spot speaking Irish to all and sundry. She discovers that it is easy to shine in the community, get all the grants, and make a very good life for herself and her family.

I think setting up occasions where it is OK to speak Irish such as Oideas Gael, Gaelscoileanna, Naíonraí, etc is the way to go. The more theatrical groups use Irish, the more Irish-speaking football teams, badminton clubs, sports groups there are, the more social events like "Sult", the more courses are organised for adults, the more work camps for volunteers willing to use Irish -- at home and abroad -- the better for the language. People will speak Irish if they know it well, enjoy it, or find it easy to learn and if they like the Irish-speakers they happen to know.

Incidentally the Coláiste in Rann na Feirste began life in Ó Méith, Co Lú, more than 100 years ago. There were Irish-speakers in Co Louth in those days but the college moved to a stronger Gaeltacht and prospered.

Oideas Gael is doing well in Glean Cholm Cille. Long may it continue. If similar ventures can be established in other Gaeltacht areas all the better.

I was at Oideas Gael about eight years ago and even then all of the Irish I experienced was at the school. While the Irish inside the school was great and I enjoyed the learning atmosphere there, the school may as well have been on the moon.

Two things impressed me as I travelled through Wales on the way back from Oideas Gael, though.

One was that the young people in Bangor, teenagers, were joking and talking to each other in Welsh, just ordinary kids but they were _living_ the language.

The other was that Welsh speakers greet strangers with a dual greeting first in Welsh then English, something like "Shwmae. Hello" This gives the other party the choice of responding in whichever language they are comfortable with.

I think in Ireland too, there have to be events to educate locals and young people how to make Irish-speaking visitors feel welcome and encourage both sides to speak Irish. People need to be made aware that droves of foreigners are interested in learning _their_ language and coming thousands of miles around the world to learn in their back yard.

Local businesses should also be made aware that many of the tourists that come to visit would like to speak Irish rather than English, especially in the vicinities of the schools. These are some of the tourists that help generate the bulk of their business through the summer months at least.

I think schools like Oidead Gael, na Gaelscoileanna, etc., need to open out to the community and try to get the parents and shopkeepers and other locals on board, and also educate the community how to encourage others around them to speak Irish, too, especially the kids.

Not events where it is "OK to speak Irish", a Taidhgín, but events where Irish is positively encouraged and nurtured by strong examples by native speakers.

And the media needs to show more of the Irish language that is being taught overseas. Not just people with Irish roots - even the Japanese and the Koreans are learning Irish because they have seen Enya, Altan, the Chieftains, Hothouse Flowers, and even River Dance or Lord of the Dance.

Whether you consider them traditional or not, _those_ are the bridges that bring people to learn about Ireland, then about Irish culture, and ultimately about the Irish language. And _those_ are the things that also show young people that Irish is "cool".

(Message edited by breandán on January 04, 2009)

No matter where they go the world over monolingual English-speakers demand that people speak English to them. How often do you hear "hey, do you speak English?" in a sort of or-are-you-stupid-or-something tone of voice being thrown at all and sundry by tourists in a non-English-speaking country? Even the polite people take it for granted that everyone is going to speak English to them and not vice-versa. This kind of ignorance tends to even put Germans under pressure with their 80 million speakers so it is no wonder it does damage in the Gaeltacht when it tramples all over it.

(Message edited by ormondo on January 04, 2009)

quote:

This discussion was mentioned in FOINSE this morning.

Do you remember which page it was on? Can't find it on the website.

This kind of ignorance tends to even put Germans under pressure with their 80 million speakers so it is no wonder it does damage in the Gaeltacht when it tramples all over it.

I don't disagree with you, Ormondo, but those Germans are as culpable for the proliferation of English as the English-speaking world is. I've lost count of the number of times I've heard from frustrated students traveling abroad to learn their target language... once their University peers find out they're from Canada, the US, Australia, etc., they insist on speaking English... so they can practice!

quote:

Do you remember which page it was on? Can't find it on the website

An dara leathanch, más buan mo chuimhne. Ní raibh móran ann - ceathrú lch nó mar sin.

Níl ach blaiseadh de Foinse ar fáil ar an suíomh, muna bhfuil tú ag íoc as.

My first exposure to Irish was in 1988 when I signed up for a course offered by Martha Wagar at Villanova. I moved to California in 1989 and had limited success hooking up with Irish speakers in the Bay Area so I attempted to study on my own with little success. I recently attended an Irish language course last September at the Irish Cultural in SF and met some of the teachers from Oideas Gael. I decided to come to Ireland/Oideas Gael this Spring to learn Irish in an Irish speaking area. Then I read this e-mail chain. I am disappointed but not surprised by what I have read. I am still coming but my expectations are now more realistic. Thanks...I guess.

Depending of your ability, you may have little trouble striking up conversations outside of the campus. That's something that I simply wasn't capable of. Either way, you'll have all the opportunities in the world to practice what Irish you have with the other students and the teachers. This you already know, I assume. They've got a good thing going on, but I was just surprised and disappointed by the utter lack of Irish once I walked out the school doors and into the community itself.

Still, Gleann is one of the prettiest areas of Ireland that you could hope to visit.

(Message edited by Danny2007 on January 09, 2009)

Gweedore is bleak in comparision to Gleann Cholm Cille, GCC is absolutely beautiful.

Matt, don't let us spoil you trip. Oideas Gael is a very good school and excellent value.

Will you be renting a car? If so, and you have allowed some time for travelling after the course finishes, drive up to Bun Beg and Gaoth Dobhair. That's the heart of the Donegal Gaeltacht. There are good sessions in the pubs there too.

Alternatively, travel down to the coast west of Galway or to the Aran Islands. They are also in the Gaeltacht. Following the west coast down through Mayo will take you through some others.

There is a reason these places tend to be bleak - Irish survived there partly because the ground was very poor and not worth the trouble for the British to wrest it off the locals. Or so the theory goes. They are beautiful nonetheless. Fjords and rocky windswept landscapes.

Beautiful culture arises in the hardest places.

Be sure to check out Sliabh Liag/Slieve League. Amazing sea cliffs not far from Gleann. Port is also nice. There were a couple excursions to these places when I took my two week course at OG.

This is p.j.-toronto (for some reason I have trouble logging in). I have had a number of friends who have taken the course in Oideas Gael and they have mentioned the same thing to me regarding language usage outside of the college... but saying that, they did notice one other thing.

They have returned to Oideas Gael to take courses three times and are set to return again this summer. Each time they return they said that local people recognize them from the year prior and actually began using some Irish with them. These same people had not done so previously.

I wonder given the volume of people coming through Oideas Gael (of which a certain number come once and never come back)the locals "invite you in" to the community to some extent once they feel that you are perceived as someone with some connection or link to the area. You have made a committment by returning and so they feel more comfortable with you as an individual rather than simply another person there out of hundreds who is there for a week only.

I had always heard that in Donegal the language was always one spoken to family and friends and until you are seen as a "friend" they are reluctant to speak to you. Thoughts ?