Hello,
I’m presently studying Gaeilge with as my only resource the book Learning Irish by Micheál Ó Siadhail. Frankly, although it is surely one of the best books out there, I find it does lack quite a bit in certain respects and especially in grammar explanations and exercises. Yes, I know the matter is far worst in other teaching materials... but anyways, what I’m coming at is that I’m looking for a good Irish grammar book that could compensate for all the failing points of LI. So what is the best Irish grammar book out there? Are there any specializes ones for the Connacht dialect? What about Ó Siadhail’s Modern Irish?Is it any good?

Also worth mentioning, I’m not too crazy about learning the Official Standard. What I really am looking for is a book that will give me a thorough account of all of the language’s grammar as it is spoken by the different dialects.

So do any of you have an idea what I should get?

Go raibh maith agaibh!

I quite like Ó Siadhail's Modern Irish. But I'm a linguist by training, so I'm quite comfortable with rules-based technical explanations. It's difficult for me to tell how usable it would be for someone from a different background. It's also selective in its coverage. You'll find answers to many important questions of Irish phonology, morphology, and syntax, but by no means all of them. My impression is that the only truly comprehensive grammar is that published by the Christian Brothers, but I can't really say as I've never used it.

Hello Angmar!

I agree with Domhnaillín, I have a very ancient (probably out of date) copy of the Christian Brothers' "Réchursa Gramadaí" which covers pretty much everything and is very thorough... It has exercises for everything. The only thing is my copy is completely in Irish, so you have to think in Irish to use it (I see it as a good thing), also the layout isn't the most user-friendly and so it can take some time figuring out exactly what they are saying...

Another great book is "Leabhar Gramadaí Gaeilge" by Nollaig Mac Congáil. This is much more modern and shiny and I'm sure I saw an English version in the bookshop so you can get either Irish or English explanations.

Also great just for the amount of exercises to practice with is "Úrchursa Gaeilge" but it might be out of print... my college library has a copy...

I found that a good introduction to grammar, and probably the clearest explanations of things like the genitive of adjectives and direct/indirect relative clauses are to be found in "Teach yourself Irish Grammar." I wish I had started with this one really, since exlaining some of the trickier points of Irish grammar can be so easily made confusing by an author :(

I have yet to find a Grammar for a dialect that's worthy to mention... I was using Teach Yourself Irish which dealt with the Munster Dialect but I found that the explanations of grammar points in the book weren't consistent with what my professors were teaching me, and all that wasn't consistent with literature we were doing so I think it's safer to get a good basis in the standard (at least we have a complete grammar for the standard).


So to sum up:

Christian Brothers for sheer completeness
Teach Yourself Irish grammar for accessibility
Leabhar Gramadaí Gaeilge for modern layout

Hope that helps!
Dáithí

I'll recommend the English version of Irish Grammar: A Basic Handbook by Nollaig Mac Congáil. It's a great primer for getting your mind wrapped around the nuances of Irish grammar. Although, it is basic and you'll most likely find it under the anglicized version of his name, Noel McGonagle.

I don't know that it will get you through "all of the language's grammar as it is spoken by the different dialects" but is sure will help you make sense out of the gaps and confusion that seem to haunt ever chapter of Learning Irish!

Well, there is one "grammar" that deals with Connemara Irish, it's Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge: an Deilbhíocht, by T. De Bhaldraithe. But it's in Irish...

So far, there is no Irish grammar in English that deals with dialectal stuff : you'll only find grammar books about standard Irish (which is a pity). I plan to write an Irish grammar that deals with both (ie. standard Irish and as many dialects as possible).

Aye me too, I'm planning to write a grammar book about Donegal Irish when I plan to stay there for a couple of months for a long holiday and get help with natives and teachers from colleges there and do plently of research and ofcourse get it corrected and ask for criticsms, I want it to be similar to TYI Munster.

TYI by Dillion is one of the best books I've seen that deals with Gaeltacht Irish, in English.

Seo gramadach duit, a Angmar! :)

http://books.google.com/books?id=0fAIAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA48&lpg=PA48&dq=irish+grammar+ %22to+want%22&source=bl&ots=ccPDVDT2hi&sig=Dc87fNIk-uxg0WqlMMcG0_Enkv8&hl=en&sa= X&oi=book_result&resnum=5&ct=result#PPP5,M1

95% of grammar is standard anyway. This I imagine is why there is no from-square-one Donegal grammar, or Connemara grammar, or Muskerry grammar; people normally get on just fine with a standard grammar, in conjunction with some sort of dialect book and exposure to dialect literature.

The Christian Brothers' "New Irish Grammar" is probably the best grammar I've seen in English; "Gráiméar Gaeilge na mBráithre Críostaí" is far and away more comprehensive though, and is the canonical reference grammar. (The sooner you get comfortable with grammatical terminology in Irish the better, then.)

For a dialect supplement, I'd recommend one of the "Teanga Bheo" series to start off with (in Irish, but it's fairly simple Irish - more examples than discussion, really) and if you're particularly interested in Cois Fharraige as opposed to the other Connemara subdialects, de Bhaldraithe's book mentioned above is quite good as well.

So many replies, thanks!!!

Following your suggestions and the book reviews I’ve read elsewhere, it seems that my best bet is to buy A New Irish Grammar by the Christian Brothers. Right now I’m seriously considering purchasing it but I would like to ask a few questions about the book before.

First of all, is this book only about the basics of Irish grammar? As I said previously, I want it to really be a supplement to all the lacks of Learning Irish. You see, I don’t want to feel after having purchased the book that I could have done just as well with only Learning Irish. What I need is really a book that goes into details and is thorough not just basic. Secondly, I’m a bit curious, does this book comes with exercises? Also, do you think it is truly necessary for me to buy it? As I mentioned already my only resources so far for Irish have been LI and the internet. So would you buy the book if you were in my situation?

So much uncertainty, arrrghh!!! But it’s in fact really hard to buy the right thing when it comes to Gaeilge!

Also I wanted to say thanks to Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh for the great pdf grammar! I only had a quick look at it but it seems like quite an interesting piece of work tho’ a bit old fashion. I’ll surely give it some further investigation later. What Irish dialect is it centered around exactly?

Thanks again!

quote:

Following your suggestions and the book reviews I’ve read elsewhere, it seems that my best bet is to buy A New Irish Grammar by the Christian Brothers. Right now I’m seriously considering purchasing it but I would like to ask a few questions about the book before.

First of all, is this book only about the basics of Irish grammar? As I said previously, I want it to really be a supplement to all the lacks of Learning Irish. You see, I don’t want to feel after having purchased the book that I could have done just as well with only Learning Irish. What I need is really a book that goes into details and is thorough not just basic.

It is rather basic and not thorough at all.
The only more detailed grammar is Graiméar Gaeilge na mBráithre Críostaí. It is in Irish, but easy to read.
You can download it as a pdf file, too:
(Christian Brother's Irish grammar)

I don't know why Irish linguists don't write in-depth grammars for the use of learners.
It seems to be kind of "secret lore".

quote:

Secondly, I’m a bit curious, does this book comes with exercises?

No, it doesn't.
If you are looking for exercises, Nancy Stenson's Grammar (Basic Irish : A Grammar and Workbook) could be what you want.

quote:

Also, do you think it is truly necessary for me to buy it? As I mentioned already my only resources so far for Irish have been LI and the internet. So would you buy the book if you were in my situation?

It is probably good to have a basic grammar book to look something up quickly.
But sooner or later you'll need a more detailed grammar.

Lars

quote:

I don't know why Irish linguists don't write in-depth grammars for the use of learners.
It seems to be kind of "secret lore".

Actually I intend to write one, when I have more time (I've several projects in progress now: 2 pocket dictionaries and other stuff).

quote:

I don't know why Irish linguists don't write in-depth grammars for the use of learners.
It seems to be kind of "secret lore".

I agree and when they do they write one it is in Irish only, which is pretty useless for rank beginners.

I dunno. Rank beginners don't stay rank beginners for long, and there are already several grammar books in English they can use. Myself I think it's great that the more in-depth grammars are in Irish; the sooner you move to accessing any kind of information, whether it's the news, sports scores or grammar, primarily through your target language, the more good it does you.

Ní dóigh liomsa gurbh fhearrde muid graiméar ar bith níos airde ná leibhéal "Cruinnscríobh na Gaeilge" nó mar sin a bheith ann i mBéarla. An té a bhfuil an leibhéal sin bainte amach aige, is mithid dó bheith in ann leabhar Gaeilge a cheadú agus eolas a bhaint as. Mura bhfuil sé in ann, cleachtadh atá uaidh (agus b'fhéidir sonc mín sa treo ceart), ní graiméar eile.

Scríobh é más mian leat é - ní shéanaim go mbeadh ceannach air - ach tá tuairim agam féin gurb í an teanga bheadh thíos leis i ndeireadh na dála. A thúisce is a bhaintear an foghlaimeoir de dhiúl an Bhéarla is ea is fearr.

OK it’s done, I ordered the New Irish Grammar by the Christian Bros. The only thing I’m afraid of now is mixing things up between the Standard and the Cois Fhairrge (Connacht) dialect. I guess I will have to rely on internet still to figure out exactly the dialectal differences until my Irish gets good enough for me to read Irish grammar books.

quote:

It is rather basic and not thorough at all.
The only more detailed grammar is Graiméar Gaeilge na mBráithre Críostaí. It is in Irish, but easy to read.
You can download it as a pdf file, too:
(Christian Brother's Irish grammar)

Thank you so much for that!!! I didn’t know it was available online. I’ve heard indeed that Graiméar Gaeilge na mBráithre Críostaí is the best grammar out there. Also is it still out of print? I believe I read somewhere that the book was going to be reprinted or something. Is that true? Anyways, I eventually expect to be able to read it.

quote:

I dunno. Rank beginners don't stay rank beginners for long, and there are already several grammar books in English they can use. Myself I think it's great that the more in-depth grammars are in Irish; the sooner you move to accessing any kind of information, whether it's the news, sports scores or grammar, primarily through your target language, the more good it does you.

a Abigail,

We beginners, especially those of us who live outside of Ireland, have such a hard time trying to learn the language anyways. The very least one could ask is to have a decent grammar book one can understand and learn the language from. Knowing that the vast majority of Irish people speak Béarla, I think it would only be more than normal that there should be a comprehensive and complete grammar (not just basic or cutting short) in Béarla. I think a lot of learners get discouraged straight off because they have to dig through a several different books in order to make out the grammar of the language. Not to mention the dialectal confusions, lack of native speakers and so on… I mean, I understand your point saying that it is great for more advance beginners to have grammars as Gaeilge but how is it so for the average learner struggling through his first few steps and being overwhelmed by everything else. It certainly won’t encourage him to continue learning the language. But I get what you mean anyways. Sin é mo bharúil.

quote:

Actually I intend to write one, when I have more time (I've several projects in progress now: 2 pocket dictionaries and other stuff).

As for Lughaidh, after what I’ve said, it’s a great thing to hear that you are intending to write an in-depth Irish grammar! It’s about time someone should do it anyways. If it’s not to much to ask you, when do you think we can expect these works to be published? Sometime in the distant future maybe?

Slán

Hey, been there, Angmar! I'm not Irish either. What I'm saying though is that there are decent grammar books, in English, which are well suited to beginning and intermediate learners. "New Irish Grammar" is one of those; "TYI Grammar" is another. GGBC on the other hand isn't one, and wouldn't be if it were in English. If you want to know about all the sometimeses and usuallies and exceptions-to-exceptions, you won't find those in a beginning or intermediate pedagogical grammar written in either language. You'd need a comprehensive reference grammar, which is what GGBC is. I don't recommend getting one of those - in English or Irish - as your first grammar book, though, any more than I would recommend an unabridged dictionary as your first dictionary. Too much complexity too soon tends to confuse and frustrate more than it helps.

It's also worth looking at the big picture here. There are already way too many learners who study Irish, but then shy away from actually reading ordinary things in Irish. Which is understandable - it's a big leap all right - but it's a leap that has to be taken sooner or later, nó ní Gaeilgeoirí a bheas ionainn i ndeireadh lae ach scoláirí. Of course if you publish a reference grammar or what-have-you in English, many people will buy that (often at the expense of the one in Irish!) because it's more convenient for them... but then most of them will rely on it instead of moving to the Irish one. Why encourage such an unhealthy dependence on English? Again, mind you I'm not saying "unhealthy" for beginners; I'm saying for intermediate to advanced learners, people who are at the level where they would be expected to start reading for themselves in any other target language. We need to nudge those people toward Irish, and there is really only one way to do so: provide worthwhile content in Irish that is not available in English.

quote:

You'd need a comprehensive reference grammar, which is what GGBC is.

Well, fairly comprehensive about Standard Irish. But there are very few information about dialects in it (and when there are, they just say "in some areas people say like this" without ever telling where).
So I intend to write a comprehensive (as much as possible) Irish grammar in English, that deals with Standard Irish and dialects (all what i've found about them so far). I wonder why nobody has done that kind of grammar so far (well, there is one, Gnás na Gaedhilge, but it's very old, in Gaelic script, and it's not comprehensive and not in "Modern Irish" really because it's full of stuff that nobody says anymore etc).

I would second the recommendation for Nancy Stenson's books (besides 'Basic Irish,' there's also her 'Intermediate Irish'). The explanations are clear and concise, and answer keys are provided; they're ideal supplements for 'Learning Irish.'

'Intermediate Irish' includes four chapters on variation in the dialects (vocabulary, prepositions, nouns & adjectives, and verbs).

If you're committed enough to work through Ó Siadhail, it's definitely worth having both of these books. Check the reviews on amazon.com for more details about what's covered.

Cén fáth go scríobhfá i mBéarla é?

Irish would be impossible to learn if its resources were in Irish only even for intermediate ones.

I for one, can't fathom not providing texts (and good ones at that) in the first language of the learners

quote:

Irish would be impossible to learn if its resources were in Irish only even for intermediate ones.

Más amhlaidh sin, conas d'éirigh le do shinsir í d'fhoghlaim?

quote:

I for one, can't fathom not providing texts (and good ones at that) in the first language of the learners.

Níl éinne ann atá ag moladh gur mór linn iad a chuir ar fáil. Féach ar Abigail athuair agus chífir nach de tuí í.

I don't mean it like that; what I mean is that comprehensive grammars should be available in both languages, both for themselves and the other.

The fact that they are not, is part of the general malaise affecting the situation

I don't mean it like that; what I mean is that comprehensive grammars should be available in both languages, both for themselves and the other.
Cén fáth gur chóir dóibh?
Ar chóir do chuile ábhar?
Cén t-ábhar a mheas tú gur ceadmhach é bheith ar fáil i nGaeilge amháin?
Nó mura ceadmhach, cén fáth go scríobhfaí inti ar chor ar bith?

"Ó, dhéanfadh sé maith do lucht léite an Bhéarla chomh maith."
"Chuirfidís spéis ann."
"Is iad is líonmhaire."
Ní leor iad seo le muid a choinneáil ó scríobh na Gaeilge, a chairde. Ní leor. Ní féidir gur leor, nó dá mba leor cé a scríobhfadh Gaeilge go deo arís? agus mura scríobhfaí cé a léifeadh? agus mura léifí cén mhaith di bheith beo?

The fact that they are not, is part of the general malaise affecting the situation
B'fhéidir nach é an general malaise céanna is cás domsa agus duitse. Táim féin ag cuimhneamh orthu siúd a chónaíonns faoi scáth ar bhruach abhus na hIordáine, gan é d'fhuinneamh nó de mhisneach iontu dul anonn agus seilbh a ghlacadh ar mhachairí na méithe thall, is é sin ar an teanga mar theanga bheo ina n-intinn is ina súil is ina mbéal. Spreagadh a theastaíonn uathu sin agus gríosadh, in ionad sócúl an tsaoil a leathadh fúthu mar a bhfuil siad.


Más amhlaidh sin, conas d'éirigh le do shinsir í d'fhoghlaim?
Díreach é! Coinnímis an misneach, a chairde, mar níl an Ghaeilge leath chomh hollscanrach dúrúnda is a dhéantar amach dúinn scaití! D'fhoghlaim na mílte cheana í. Is féidir í a fhoghlaim ar nós teanga ar bith eile (agus vice versa), agus bíonn rath ar an tumoideachas chomh maith is a bheadh i gcás teanga ar bith eile.